10mm Auto For Bear Defense

Kanewpadle said:

Although I no longer live there, I go back every year to fish with my dad. We ALWAYS have bear encounters. If they leave us alone then we leave them alone. We'll even walk the opposite way to avoid them. If they come within 50 or so yards we fire a shot in the air and most of the time they back off and turn around. If they come closer we shoot them with #7 or 8 birdshot in the rear. At 40-50 yards the birdshot does not penetrate thier hide but it usually gives them the incentive to go the other way. After 30+ years we have had more encounters with bear than we can remember. We have been chased several times as well. Usually when carrying fish. We only had to put one down.

As a teen I saw a brown bear take three rounds through the chest with a 338 win magnum. The bear ran 150 towards us before it dropped less than 100 feet away. Ever since then I've been terrified of them although I love them and respect them.

Currently when I go there I carry my fathers Ruger Blackhawk 44 mag and he carries a 12 ga. If my little brother goes he carries a S&W 460. Even though heavily armed, we still have to rely on situational awareness and pay attention to what goes on around us. Usually we can spot a troublesome bear and walk up or downstream to avoid them.

After all, they were there first and are just hungry.

Click to expand...

I believe that just about sums it up. The 10mm will work if she fires it into the air or the ground to drive the bear off. Any other use would probably be quite foolish and just piss the bear off. A large well fed male can get over 1200 lbs. and they can move at about 30 mph when charging. The only truely effective defense is to know their behaviors, knowing how to read the bears responses, and knowing when to get out of their way. I would suggest that your friends hire a good guide when venturing into bear habitat.

TXSWFAN said:

If the G20 fits her hand and she's comfortable with it, get them to add a Lone Wolf 6" barrel to it.

Lone Wolf Distributors - Product Detail

Using the longer barrel with Double Tap 200 or 230 gn. solids should give it a little more velocity/penetration.

Plus she'll have 15 shots. I'm sure even a brown bear won't like that very much.

10mm is my favorite handgun cartridge. Great for hogs, yotes and such. We don't have bears in my neck of the woods.

Click to expand...

If the first shot doesn't bother the bear, the next 14 or 15 aren't going to matter. You have to hit him hard with the first shot. Maybe a second. You won't have time to get 15 rounds on target accurately.

Once you piss off a charging bear he will ignore most handgun rounds.

The 10mm is not enough.

There are those instances where "you never know". I know of bears that were shot with a 9MM and a 40SW. Both bears were stopped immediately. Both shooters were considered to be extremely lucky.

I don't want to rely on luck to save my own life.

scooter123 said:

I believe that just about sums it up. The 10mm will work if she fires it into the air or the ground to drive the bear off. Any other use would probably be quite foolish and just piss the bear off. A large well fed male can get over 1200 lbs. and they can move at about 30 mph when charging. The only truely effective defense is to know their behaviors, knowing how to read the bears responses, and knowing when to get out of their way. I would suggest that your friends hire a good guide when venturing into bear habitat.

Click to expand...

A good guide would be a great choice. A guide armed with a 12 ga or 45-70 would be a better choice.

To add; if the 10mm is a backup to a long gun, then it's better than nothing.

It all depends on if/how they plan ahead. In our fishing party, those that are not armed with a long gun don't stray far from those that do. Not even 10 feet in dense brush. That includes personal business in the bushes.

Perfectly sufficient as long as you save the last round for yourself.

m1gunner said:

"Will a 10mm auto, probably a Glock, suffice for defense against an Alaska grizzly, maybe a coastal brown bear, if the bullet is well placed at close range by a steady person?"

The answer to this question is "No", it will not suffice.

Click to expand...

+1...i must agree...i would have either my 500 or 460 magnum

With a 10mm, even with 600+ pounds of muzzle energy, you won't stop a large bear quickly enough unless you get a head shot or spinal cord. I read an account recently where a heart-shot bear, getting no further blood to the brain, still was "active" for 3 minutes before it died.
Sonny

Not to burst everybody's bubble but the Glock 20 is gaining a fair following up here in bear country. Give Kenny a call at Wild West Guns in Anchorage if you want more than opinions.

OldRoger's post is the combo of gun and ammo that seems most popular among the Glock 20 crowd. Fifteen rounds of deep penetrating 10mm is nothing to sneeze at. If she's comfortable with the Glock 20 than that's the gun for her. I usually carry a 45/70 or 375 when I can, but a heavy caliber handgun has saved more than one Alaskan's bacon when close in and dirty. There have been a couple of charging big bears downed by handguns in the last few years.

Keep in mind that a cop with a Model 10 .38 killed a polar bear at the Staten Island zoo in the '80's.

If Massad Ayoob sees this, he has details.

An Alaska guide who writes for, "Rifle" said that he and his daughter rely on Ruger .357's as backup handguns, and he has seen many bears. Obviously, he believes that placement is the key with any handgun bullet.

The Aug., 2009, "Sporting Classics" has an article in which a dentist killed a charging bear with a Ruger .44 Magnum using a 280 grain bullet. He aimed for center of mass. Hit the bear in the chest.

T-Star

akviper said:

Not to burst everybody's bubble but the Glock 20 is gaining a fair following up here in bear country. Give Kenny a call at Wild West Guns in Anchorage if you want more than opinions.

OldRoger's post is the combo of gun and ammo that seems most popular among the Glock 20 crowd. Fifteen rounds of deep penetrating 10mm is nothing to sneeze at. If she's comfortable with the Glock 20 than that's the gun for her. I usually carry a 45/70 or 375 when I can, but a heavy caliber handgun has saved more than one Alaskan's bacon when close in and dirty. There have been a couple of charging big bears downed by handguns in the last few years.

Click to expand...

Thanks. Got it. I'll tell them to call Kenny.


T-Star

I love the 10mm for two legged threats but not for 700 lb. to 1000 lb. Alaskan bears.
A friend of mine went to AK for some salmon fishing with two friends. He carried a S&W 44mag on his hip. While fishing they encountered a large grizzly bear that stood up and started walking toward them. The guy pulled his 44mag and shot him in the head and it just sheared off a big chunk of skin, fur and some skull. The bear was really pissed at this point and charged full bore at them. Luckily his two friends had a 30-06 and a 7mm mag. It took a couple more shots from "all three guns" to down the bear before it reached them.
In short, I would not trust my life with only a 10mm Glock if an Alaskan bear became a threat.

akviper said:

Not to burst everybody's bubble but the Glock 20 is gaining a fair following up here in bear country. Give Kenny a call at Wild West Guns in Anchorage if you want more than opinions.

OldRoger's post is the combo of gun and ammo that seems most popular among the Glock 20 crowd. Fifteen rounds of deep penetrating 10mm is nothing to sneeze at. If she's comfortable with the Glock 20 than that's the gun for her. I usually carry a 45/70 or 375 when I can, but a heavy caliber handgun has saved more than one Alaskan's bacon when close in and dirty. There have been a couple of charging big bears downed by handguns in the last few years.

Click to expand...

is it fair to assume that kenny @ wild west guns happens to sell these glocks?

In particular, is it feasible to handload 10mm ammo with hard-cast Keith bullets of about 200-210 grains, and will they feed in the Glock?

Click to expand...

I've never tried it, the weight wouldn't be so much of a problem but the length of using a Keith bullet could be too long to fit in the magazine. Cast bullets can be shot in the factory barrel but the barrel must be kept clean. I have a G20 but don't shoot it very much, it's not my favorite 10mm. It was my first choice when venturing into the "hood" due to its 15 shot magazine.

I frankly am not enamored of Glocks. If the couple in question finds that a Glock 10mm won't fit her hand, they know that a Colt will, and the lady can shoot the .45 Govt. Model well. So, the Colt Delta Elite might be a viable option, although I have the impression that the 10mm overpowered that old design and the guns didn't last well.

Click to expand...

I'd heard that after the failure of D&D, Colt was the only manufacturer making a 10mm for a while. The original Norma loads were too much for the 1911 frame and caused them to crack, this was the primary reason the power level was lowered.

My 10s include the G20, two Delta Elites and a 1006. While I am particularly fond of the 1911 platform, and shoot them quite often, I would probably look for a 1006 for woods carry with stout loads.

Wild West Guns handle Colt and Sig handguns mostly so I don't think Kenny is pushing Glocks for bear defense. He is however, personally acquainted with one or more people who have used the 10mm for bear defense. If anything, Kenny will recommend one of their custom 454s over any lesser caliber.

I do not claim to be an expert but dealt with Alaskan bears for over 30 years. The city animal control department was under the police department and our officers often had to assist the animal control officer with bears.

Ignorant people leave garbage and dog food outside and train the bears to search for food in and around the residential areas of our town. Our educational pamphlet says "a fed bear is a dead bear". Once the bears make the people + house = food connection they become bolder and more aggressive. Transplanting the bears to a different area does not work as they return so they are killed. This unfortunate duty falls to the police department.

Our brown bears are much larger than the interior grizzly due to the summer salmon diet. Our black bears are pretty much normal sized and not as big as the coastal browns.

We killed several bears every summer. We used barrel traps and took them to the landfill and shot them inside the traps. Most of our officers carried 45 autos. I know for a fact that the Federal Hydra-Shok 230 grain hollow point will penetrate the top of even the largest bear's skull every time. 44 magnums and Brenneke slugs worked very well too. Would I venture into bad bear country armed with a 45 auto, HELL NO, but it can kill a bear.

I personally know two people who killed charging interior grizzly bears with handguns. The first was a woman who was was armed with a four inch Model 19 with Remington 158 grain soft points. She shot the bear in the head and chest as it was charging her. The bear veered off to the side of her and began thrashing and biting at the wounds. She reloaded twice, shooting the bear a total of 18 times.

The second involved an acquaintance who thought it would be thrilling to bow hunt a grizzly. He got the ultimate rush when he hit the bear with the arrow and it promptly charged. His best friend (or so he thought) was backing him up with a 12 gauge. When the bear charged the buddy ran. The bear was on Bruce in a few seconds and began biting and clawing him about the arm, head, and back. Bruce carried a Desert Eagle 44 and was able to get it out. When the bear pinned him on the ground he pressed the muzzle into the bears neck and emptied the gun. Miraculously, the gun did not malfunction. Bruce survived and the bear did not.

Google Alaska bear attacks and you will find a few each year where handguns killed aggressive bears.

My advice in a nutshell, no handgun is adequate against an angry bear. Carry the biggest caliber rifle or a 12 gauge with Brenneke slugs and be proficient with it. If you are visiting a national park you may be forced to carry a handgun. If your friend is good with a Glock 20 and you load it with the right ammo, it will beat the hell out of teeth and fingernails in a bear fight. The Glock has lots of shots, is lightweight, and nearly corrosion free. I once schooled a visiting cousin in the art of a Remington 12 gauge for her visit. When we caught up with her on the trail a few day later, she did not have the gun. She left it in the car as it was too heavy and she felt weird as most of the other hikers were unarmed. She would have been better off with the most powerful handgun she could shoot well.

My standard summer bear carry is a Marlin 45/70 loaded with 430 grain hard cast at 1900 fps. My handgun is a S&W 329 loaded with 300 grain hard cast. Both feel pretty puny when a big bear is acting like he would like to invade my space. I do not see the point of carrying a five or six pound handgun when I can carry a heavy caliber rifle for about the same weight. I thought the whole point of a handgun is to be easier to pack.

I saw buckshot advocated for bears. Pattern your shotgun and you will see that buckshot is a very short range proposition. You do not have the ability to dispatch a wounded bear that might move away from you. Heavy slugs are much better. I would not want to wait for a charging bear to get within ten or fifteen yards so I could use buckshot.

Now, let's discuss which is better, 9mm or 45 or maybe bias ply tires vs. radial ply tires.

akviper, interesting read, thanks.

Bigger revolver is......a Better Carry

As has been noted, a BIG rifle is better than ANY handgun, but most people do not want to lug around 8+ lbs, that they often, will never use. A revolver is what you need. Reliable, and handy to carry concealed, I prefer the short barreled, bigger calibers, that are quicker to draw, and allow for rapid "point shooting".

I don't have anything but Black Bears in the Berkshires to worry about. Frankly, I'm more concerned about the "Yahoos" that I encounter in the woods, and on the banks of the river, while fishing. I usually carry a .38 spl. snubby. (M-36 or M-10), and have a M-66, if I feel the need for more. A K frame .22 is not a suitable weapon woods carry, IMO. Bob

...but most people do not want to lug around 8+ lbs, that they often, will never use.

Click to expand...

I guess that tells us how smart "most" people really are. I would like to throw that spare tire out of the back of my Jeep since I've never used it yet, and replace it with more fried chicken, trail mix and diet Vernors, but I've talked to people that have known people that have had flats before...The fact that you might only need that 8 pound rifle once is enough for me.

I carry a rifle or shotgun on woods walks because I LIKE to carry it.
I cant imaging the people who NEED to carry one not doing so.
It baffles me.


Jim

I would not worry about leading in the Glock as long as thorough cleaning follows range work. The gun most likely would not be shot enough have any worries about leading.

I would be darn sure the ammo she will carry has proven itself during plenty of range visits. Agree, the flat-nosed lead bullets may not function as desired.

Bob

RPG or flamethrower and a friend who runs slower than you.