i agree with crazy smith also, i too have used wc820 with very good results, i now use a full load of 2400 and out of my 686 83/8 bl with a 2 power scope i have shot 2-2 1/2'' at 100yds. off of the bench, and have taken deer at 85yds with 1 shot. shot placement is the key factor. also give the hornady 140gr. leverevolution bullet a try it is realy accurate out of my 686 and marlin.