Model 1, 3rd Issue, .22 Short - Ammo Question

Hearsedriver · Jan 31, 2012

I am looking at a pretty decent Model 3rd Issue in .22 short and was wondering if I can use any .modern .22 short ammo with it or black powder only. I have heard that accuaracy is an issue with this model. Anyone have any thoughts on that? Thanks

deadin · Jan 31, 2012

wondering if I can use any .modern .22 short ammo

In a word "No". CB or BB caps are about it.

nutsforsmiths · Feb 1, 2012

Like Dean said above "NO"! Todays 22 short ammo is too powerful for these old tip-ups.

CB or BB caps are it. I have one of these and I have never shot mine. I just don't want to ruin it in any way.

Hearsedriver · Feb 1, 2012

Thanks guys. Now that I think about it, when I was about 15, my brother was given some kind of old break top .22 . He was afraid to shoot it so I did. I still have a piece of brass from the .22 case in my left thumb. That thing blew apart when I shot it. At the time, I thought it may have been becasue it was out of time but maybe it was the "wrong" ammo.

new2S&W · Feb 1, 2012

It's always better to be the hearsedriver than the passenger in back!

C&R Bill · Feb 8, 2012

Is there any blackpowder rimfire ammo currently manufactured for these antiques?? (and say for other types of old derringers) Thanks, Bill

glowe · Feb 8, 2012

No one manufactures BP .22 ammo that I have found. You can sometimes find original ammo that has a bad or no box for a good price. Awhile ago, I chronographed some .22 ammo. I had .22 CBs run at an average of 450 fps. I also shot a few loose rounds of BP shorts and got 500 fps. Both velocities are quite low and function fine in my Model 1's.

C&R Bill · Feb 8, 2012

glowe said:
No one manufactures BP .22 ammo that I have found. You can sometimes find original ammo that has a bad or no box for a good price. Awhile ago, I chronographed some .22 ammo. I had .22 CBs run at an average of 450 fps. I also shot a few loose rounds of BP shorts and got 500 fps. Both velocities are quite low and function fine in my Model 1's.

I know this will sound silly so forgive me, but what are 22 "CB's"?? Are they 22 blanks?? Any projectiles in them? I am only familiar with 22 shorts, longs & long rifles. Thanks, Bill

glowe · Feb 8, 2012

CB ammo comes in Long and Short varieties. CB long and short ammunition is advertised as 700 fps in rifles, but chronographs under 500 fps in revolvers. I think it is usually a 29 grain bullet for the CB short. CCI makes this ammo and has also made 22 BB in the past, which is actually slower than the CB round. 22 BB uses a round ball instead of a conical bullet.

Driftwood Johnson · Feb 8, 2012

Howdy

That may be what goes for a CB Cap today, but that's not what I remember as a kid.

CB Caps were copper cased 22 ammo that were even shorter than a regular 22 short. The second round from the left in this photo is a CB Cap, at least the way I remember them.

The round all the way on the left is a BB Cap. The BB cap was just a tiny 22 caliber round ball fired by nothing more than the primer. There was no powder inside a BB cap.

Here is another view of the BB Cap.

When I bought my No. I Third Issue I tried to find some old fashioned BB Caps or CB Caps to fire in it. All I found was that stuff made by CCI. My No. 1 is oldest gun I own, and I am not going to risk shooting it until I either find some BB caps, or make up my own Black Powder 22 shorts.

sgseward · Feb 25, 2012

I just picked up a Model 1, 3rd issue today! I found RWS CB and BB Caps at Cheaper-than-dirt. Each comes in tins of 100 rounds. They're not cheap but I figure I'm not going to shoot this that much anyway. I didn't get around to checking but this is the sort of thing Dixie Gun Works might carry.

Steve

nutsforsmiths · Mar 11, 2012

I have a 1st, 3rd that I have thought about shooting many times. It came with about 25 rounds of original black powder 22 short rounds. They are copper cases with the letter 'H' on the bottom, for Henry.

My uncle also gave me an old tin of 22 CB that look just like the 2nd one on the left of Driftwood Johnson's picture. The case is copper and the bottom looks like the acorn as well. The tin is from the 1950s and they were made in Germany.

I just can't get up the guts to fire this pistol, mainly because it is in nice shape, blued and factory engraved. If the pistol gets destroyed I would never forgive myself!

glowe · Mar 11, 2012

I would not try to change anybody's decision here and only give observations on this little Model 1. I have shot a few hundred rounds of CB Shorts over the years in my 2nd and 3rd Issue revolvers without mishap. I have also shot old BP 22 shorts. The only bullets I had to drive out of the barrel have been from misfires with the old BP loads, so I do not use them anymore.

Can you imagine how many 22 Shorts have been fired out of these guns over the decades? That is a true testament to the quality and durability, besides providing unofficial proof testing.

These guns are now approaching 150 years old and there is always a chance of finding one that is pre-stressed to the point that it could break, but I have not heard of one instance of one of these blowing up. It is my opinion that I feel a great sense of history in owning these old tip-ups and part of that history is to know how they shoot.

BTW - they are definitely not target quality guns! I have one that shoots 6 feet high at 50 feet and are best to shoot at 7 yards (or less).

jimgoldth · Mar 11, 2012

I had shot my #1 third with CB ammo without a problem and thought about using regular shorts but then I came into possesion of a neat #1 third that had a nonfluted cylinder and only 5 holes. It told me a story. Someone had destroyed tha cylinder probably with a 22 short cartridge and a very cleaver gunsmith had fabricated the new cylinder.

although the new cylinder looked a bit stronger I withheld my urge to fire modern ammo in it.

cjwils · Mar 31, 2012

I have two model 1 2nd issue and two model 1 3rd issue, and I have fired all of them with no problems using RWS BB caps and CCI CB shorts. Based on noise and recoil, I think the RWS BB caps are not much milder than the CCI rounds. The mildest of all 22 rimfires are the Aguila Colibri rounds, which fire a 20 grain bullet at only 350 fps, but they come with a long rifle case length, which will not fit the model 1. I have had good success with the Aguila's in some other antique revolvers.

Incidentally, if you search the internet for RWS BB caps, you may find them listed as 6 mm. Don't be confused, they are 22's. The 6 mm designation comes from 160 years ago, when it seems that the 5.56 mm measurement that corresponds to .22 cal was rounded off.

Roundsworth · Mar 31, 2012

I recently acquired a Marlin 1873 Standard Revolver chambered for the 22 Long cartridge. I carefully cleaned the little gun and inspected it thoroughly. Aside from the brass frame shedding 95% of its nickel over the past century, it was tight and functioned well. I used CCI Long CBs, rated at 710 FPS from a rifle. They sounded like a sharp 'cough' out of the little Marlin. The heads did not expand, which is a common telltale sign of excessive headspace in a 22 rimfire, nor did the case exhibit any abnormalities overall.

Model 1, 3rd Issue, .22 Short - Ammo Question

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