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Originally Posted by James&theGiant1911
How many 3913s do you see for sale? How many tactical 3913s?
Just a quick search of previous 3913s on gunsamerica appears that they all sold. Rough ones 600-800 and pristine ones for a grand.
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When evaluating the business viability of a product, we must consider both supply AND demand.
Right now the used 3913s sell for under $1000. Its a safe assumption that S&W can't make a profit on a brand new one for that price, not with a modern Melonite finish and higher current costs for raw materials and labor.
So, that's the supply side. What about demand? I don't see much musing in the gun world for a metal frame compact 9mm pistol. What I observe is a greater desire for smaller , single stack poly frame guns which are easier to conceal and easier to shoot for the fairer sex.
We see a gun like a 5906 and observe a well crafted work . The greater marketplace sees a 2lb 9mm pistol with blocky ergonomics that Sally Shooter can't get her hands around, and is as concealable as a Cadillac in downtown Chicago.
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Originally Posted by 4506517
You know, for all those that say it can't happen......S & W won't do it because it isn't profitable, because the trend is towards polymer, because it is outdated, because people won't pay........
Explain to me how/why Sig is doing it and is profitable, how/why Beretta is doing it and is profitable, how/why CZ is doing it and is profitable....
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To a degree, this response involves a measure of speculation. I do not have access to Beretta's, Sig Sauer's, and CZ's balance sheet, but I'll repeat why those firms make money on metal frame pistols; the answer is Uncle Sam.
Government contracts make guns profitable in 2 ways. One, they obviously buy the hardware and parts support in bulk. Two, the cost of R&D is amortized over a greater number of products, and finally the product sales are guaranteed via contract. Notice how Beretta never aggressively advertises the 92FS the way Springfield Armory does their XDs. Why? Because us Average Joe's are just profitable gravy. Beretta doesn't need our business to make the 92FS profitable.
CZ's business model is a niche brand, one based exclusively on
one particular model made since the mid 1970's modified into different variants. This would be akin to S&W making just the M-39 9mm single stacks for 40 years straight-no 5906, CS9s, 4006s, etc.
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Originally Posted by 4506517
Sig has never had a successful poly framed gun and they also manufacture a 1911 style gun. Apparently they can balance CNC time between all the models they manufacture. Price point argument? Plenty of folks pay top dollar for Sigs, and they usually don't just sit on the shelves..
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This is false.
The SP2022 is polymer framed, and was so successful Sig Sauer's attempt to replace it failed and they wound up bringing the gun back into production.
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Originally Posted by 4506517
Beretta has a government contract, okay. I still see 92/96s selling for $700 brand new. Oh wait, they have not had a successful poly pistol either. And don't mention the PX4...it has been adopted by maybe 1 LE agency?.
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If LE agency adoption is the metric for success, the 3rd Gen REALLY is a crummy pistol then! After all, nearly every LE agency in America-including the Illinois State Police, who darn near helped S&W BUILD these fine guns- dumped S&W for the cheaper, lighter Glock.
Government bean counters are not arbiters of firearm effectiveness.
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Originally Posted by 4506517
How about CZ? They make one of the slickest 9 mm pistols around, the 75. Again, I don't know of a single successful polymer design they have put out that has enjoyed widespread success..
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The CZ P-07 proves that to be wrong.
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Originally Posted by 4506517
It boils down to the fact that when a company ceases to be innovative, it is driven by the bottom line. The M&P provides a greater margin of profitability for S & W. It has nothing to do with the fact that it is better or innovative. It is more profitable.....that's it.
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Indeed its more profitable. Its also more relevant to the needs of the modern day shooter.
Most gun owners are NOT like us!
The typical guy and gal looking for a gun wants something reliable, proven, and preferably a gun used by the police or a major military unit. The premise being that if a gun is good enough for Police Department X, its probably good enough to defend their household.
The M&P isn't a stirring design , but it IS a more practical pistol then a third generation design. I should know as I owned both briefly and compared the M&P9 to the S&W 5903. At the end of the day the M&P shot better for me , even though it has all the soul of a Soviet apartment building. Ultimately when the chips are down the bad guy doesn't care what's written on the slide, and for newbies to shooting the M&P makes more sense.
Its cheaper, fits more hands, requires less time to master , and needs minimum maintenance to function. For Joe Everyman, that's all he'll ever need his gun to do.
For us cognoscenti, we need something more then that for our pistols. That doesn't make it profitable for a firm like S&W to cater to our needs.