Agreed. Once one digs deeply into the whole '"Penetration is everything!" argument, the FBI Miami shootout will inevitably rear its head. Passionate opinions bloom on all sides regarding this event, but IMHO the FBI's reaction to it with their "Penetration! Penetration! Penetration!" screed (borne out of their 1987 Wound Ballistics sponsored 'study') was simply a rouse to save face over the fact the Agents on the scene were equipped by the FBI with horrendous tactical training and a near total lack of understanding of the limitations of their abilities versus highly trained, equipped and motivated opponents.

It is way too long to get into here, but the FBI's "ballistics study" blamed much of the shootout's results on a single Winchester Silvertip 115 gr 9mm that was fired, hit one of the bad guys and inflicted an 'non-survivable wound', but did not 'penetrate deep enough' to cause the baddie (a guy named Platt) to die soon enough.

The FBI never really owned the fact they did a huge disservice to their Agents by not giving them the training they needed to deal with dudes like this. This would include that the one Agent that fired the single 9mm Silvertip and hit Platt with a fatal shot also missed from about 7-10 yards with around 12 other shots. That's terrible combat marksmanship from such a close distance, but is that the Agent's fault? No, the FBI at that point wasn't interested in tactical combat training for its Agents and never really desired to make them 'gunfighters.'

So the FBI did the huge bureaucratic 'CYA Dance' and blamed the Miami Shootout results on poor lack of penetration by the single 9mm round; it simply didn't do enough to kill instantly. But they made little mention of the fact that had Platt been hit in the vitals with an additional 5, 8 or 10 rounds, he would surely have died on the spot. Or that ramming a car driven by two dangerous, heavily armed bank robbers in a residential area by a civilian's house was a stupid idea. Or that the Miami-Dade SWAT team could have been notified and, with highly trained, skillful tactical officers and appropriate equipment, could have taken those two turds down hard but far more tactically and safely.

Now, I am NOT criticizing the Agents on the scene, nor am I trying to Monday morning QB their actions in a self righteous way (I've never been in a gunfight, hope I never will be) but the 1986 Miami FBI Shootout, aside from maybe the Shootout at the OK Corral, is the single most studied gunfight in history. Lessons are to be learned from studying it, and one of the biggest is that the tactics you bring to the fight are FAR more important that if your pistol bullets penetrate at least 18".

This is relevant to the discussion about the Treasury load above as well, because whatever load you're carrying, if you can't hit your target with multiple rounds in a vital area, then it doesn't matter if you carrying a .44 Magnum loaded with Dirty Harry memorial loads or a .22LR you bought used from the Mossad. Hitting your target multiple times in a vital area is the #1 rule.

Text straight from the FBI report following Miami - "It is essential to bear in mind that the single most critical factor remains penetration."
Bull ****

That's only true if you're covering your federal @$$ over an embarrassing shootout in which the poor training you provided your Agents got them hurt and/or killed. Penetration is an overrated objective, and shooting a round that will easily go 18 inches deep through an adult will eventually result in rounds going completely through your subject and risking other souls. This is why most every LEO agency dropped the 147 gr 9mm after the reports and results of several shootings with it started piling up - the 147 gr 9mm is the poster child, spokesman and anointed Pope of the FBI's 'Penetration' religion, and it worked very, very poorly unless one got lucky and hit the spinal cord or put one in the brain box.

No velocity means no expansion, and no expansion means little energy delivery inside the target, but rather kinetic energy pushing the round thru and thru. Can it kill? Sure, given the perfect circumstances any bullet shot into a human can kill, but the "Super Penetrators" don't 'STOP' which is far more important, in my opinion.

Shooting people with ice picks is a great way to save meat if you're hunting, but it's a ****** way to put a dangerous felon down NOW that's trying to kill someone innocent. If the "Penetration is Everything!" manta was true, then NATO hardball 9mm would be the deadliest handgun ammo known to man. Newsflash: It ain't. Not by a long, long stretch.

Shooting accuracy is #1, followed by safe and effective tactics at #2. Anyone can concoct a situation where any given LEO round can be found to come up short, but rounds specifically designed simply to 'penetrate' scare me hairless when thinking of depending on them to save my life. And unless one is about to be attacked by a fifteen pound slab of 10% Ballistic Gelatin draped with 2 layers of denim, the "Super Penetrators" are not my Holy Grail round of choice.

Well, sorry fellas, I didn't mean to 'Go On Rant' but I've heard this 'penetration' stuff from so many instructors and administrators that worship at the alter of the FBI for so many years it's become a hot button with me. Surprisingly, I disagree with them.

Boge, you're exactly right about the old state police 125 gr .357 Mag round. If the FBI's All-Knowing Trash Heap of Knowledge was right, then all those decades of turds getting smoked by Troopers with the 125 gr .357 Mag round should never have happened. They're essentially saying "All that history and documentation? Well, it was wrong. This is what is actually right."

Of course, this is the same federal thinking that screwed up the 10mm they eventually went to, making their load so anemic that the .40 S&W was invented, a small round that outperformed the FBI 10mm. How in the Hell do you screw up the 10mm? Amazing.

Personally, for a daily carry designed to just get the bad guy off me so I could retreat, a S&W 640 loaded with that 110 gr +P+ is not a bad option. I'm not going to be shooting through doors or walls like a road Trooper or street Police anyway. I personally think that eye to eye, gut to gut in a combat situation, it is not a bad round.

But given any choice, I'll take a 135 gr to 155 gr 10mm out of a Delta Elite or S&W 1006 as ideal. Excusing those for their eccentricity and in favor of a more conventional set up, gimme a Sig P229 loaded with CCI Lawman Gold Dot 125 gr .357Sig JHP's.

But far more importantly, I'll be heading back to the range for more practice, so as to make sure I hopefully hit WHAT I have to, WHEN I have to.




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