Andy, thank you very much for chiming in, yeah upon investigation, I found that the dash 4's in both models are what I'm wanting, like you though, my area is not blessed with very many older smiths. Most of mine have come from gun broker, so yeah I prob should have stated that earlier, as eye balling one in the shop is nearly impossible, that's why I was asking so much about those two. Also feel like those two would compliment my 17-3 and 586-8 really well. The search is on!