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Old 09-14-2017, 06:04 PM
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TomkinsSP TomkinsSP is offline
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Originally Posted by Kiwi cop View Post
I have never had to shoot someone, but I have made numerous arrests at gunpoint and have many times decided that if a suspect/offender carried out a certain action I would shoot. Here in NZ we never as cops will shoot to kill.

We only shoot to stop an offender inflicting death or serious bodily harm to ourselves or another, or to effect an arrest/prevent an escape from custody where the offender poses a real and serious risk of death or serious bodily harm to ourselves or another and where the use of lesser force is insufficient.

I have no knowledge of US laws but in my view if following a self defence shooting anyone says "I shot to kill him in self defence" there may very well be repercussions. A statement that "I shot to stop him from ......." is possibly a better option.

Anytime you shoot intending to kill is trouble.

As for absolutes, there is usually both an objective and subjective test to self defence shootings. What you believe at the time and what other people believe is reasonable under the circumstances (investigators, prosecutors, jury) so absolutes are practically impossible to give.

As Walkingwolf indicates above, the fact that you raised this question on this forum will be established if you are ever involved in a self defence shooting, and subjectively it will be held against you.
Of the five UNITED states (only 10% mind you) I have personal knowledge of CCW and SD laws in (My HS English teacher would hate this sentence), ALL hold that if you point a gun at a human being you are ALREADY using DEADLY FORCE.

As Police Officers we had non lethal weapons at our disposal. We were taught to use the lowest level of force REQUIRED to carry out our duties. When the revolver came out of the holster, we were trained to hold center-mass. If any firearm was used, the instruction we had previously received was clear. Fire center-mass, continue firing until the threat subsides. This was not taught in a manner any rational human being could see as ambiguous. Death is a probable result.

As an armed civilian you MAY have an option the PO does not have, to retreat, even run away. This is situationally dependent. Sometimes criminals FORCE you to act by taking away alternatives. One thing you probably don't have as a LAC is a less than lethal force option.

Just my opinion here: STATING your intent was to kill, is not wise. I HOPE this is merely a poor choice of words. (This is a really, really bad time to be incoherent or misunderstood, so I would advise anyone to take as much time as required to compose themselves before saying anything. I mean AS MUCH TIME as necessary.) If Charles Manson broke out of prison yesterday and broke into your house today, what you are doing is protecting yourself and your family. If you are accosted in a parking lot by a knife wielding thug, you are protecting yourself and your family. YOU SHOULD NOT DRAW (or use) A WEAPON UNLESS YOU FEEL THAT YOU (or an INNOCENT other was in MORTAL DANGER, and if that is what happened that is how it should be communicated.

That said in the jurisdictions I have first hand knowledge of, you should double tap center mass, mozambique or just go left eye right. You aren't the Lone Ranger trying to shoot the bloody butcher's knife out of Squeeky's paw.

I can say with absolute certainty that the absolute empirical standard is what a reasonable and rational person would have done in your situation. I can also say with absolute empirical certainty that we cannot KNOW what any Police Officer, Prosecutor, Judge or Juror will believe to be reasonable. We can only make a reasonable guess.

What will and won't be scrutinized is so situationally dependent. If Dzhokhar Tsarnaev is lying dead in your living room before news of his escape made the nightly news, you are going to be celebrated not scrutinized. If you are a wealthy business owner standing over a dead teenaged would-be mugger holding a airsoft gun he painted to look real, well, lots, lots, lots of scrutiny.
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Last edited by TomkinsSP; 09-14-2017 at 06:12 PM.
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