lasers/other lights on your weapons..

for carry or home defense . have a couple of guns that have nite sights , they are of some use but in my opinion i don not believe they are a game changer. read that i would not say they would make a major contribution in winning a close quarters in counter.
my glock is a gen 11 model .... no rail to mount a laser or a light/laser combo . darn , should i sell it or trade it in on a newer model glock just to have this feature ? NO , i do not like the device you can fit on the rail less models to have this potential problem solved , would only go for the gun model that has the rail feature already machined in.
then again after reading jim cirolo's (sp) info about his experience in his many shoot outs , he could only say you have to focus on the threat and will not even have the front sight come into play ! he should know !
and i have also read a report ( when i can find the publication i will try to insert here which guy taught it ) about the reviewed actual shootings . the people he had feed back from was around 70 actual shootings i believe .
he writes that no one involved in the gun fights needed access to any lighting devices as none of the participants mentioned it
post any thoughts or experiences you have had . all thanks .
right now i am leaning toward keeping the model glock model that i have and getting in as much practice as i can in that 3-7 yard range that most bad -fast encounters develop and basically just a very quick " gun outlined against the target approach " with bare minimum use of the sights !

rock n roll kid said:

and i have also read a report ( when i can find the publication i will try to insert here which guy taught it ) about the reviewed actual shootings . the people he had feed back from was around 70 actual shootings i believe. he writes that no one involved in the gun fights needed access to any lighting devices as none of the participants mentioned it.

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I think you may be referring to Tom Givens of Rangemaster. He has kept data compiled from self defense shootings his students have been involved in over the years.

For home defense, I have gone to a revolver with a red dot sight and a light on the rail.

I have been around 68 years now and survived one "situation" that evolved into a shooting inside house. I have two red dot sights that require batteries on revolvers for target shooting. My experience has been that when I get to the range, I find the batteries start dying while I'm shooting. Murphy's Law seems to dominate .
I can't trust my life to a battery powered anything because I tend to forget about the batteries until I turn them on. I have since bought a battery tester that shows how good-bad a battery is which helps decide when to change batteries....but I can't trust myself to NOT forget about the batteries. Even my flashlights get taken for granted until a hurricane is approaching ... then I check them.
If you are going to use lights and/or sights, in a life or death situation make sure the unit works every and all time ( a good i.e. expensive quality unit) and set up a strict schedule to test the unit and change the batteries.
In my one experience, things happened really fast, there was no time to turn on lights/lasers , only a fast response , the bad guy being a poor shot and with the grace of God I survived.
It's a personal decision to use these technological superior sighting tools and as long as they are properly working they are great, but when they stop working....they not so great.
Gary

I do not own any lasers and would not use them ever for a SD gun even if I did own one. I never want to rely on a red or green dot to shoot. If you train yourself using a laser all of a sudden you become dependent on it and actually wait to see it. I would not like that "crutch" on a SD gun.

As far as a flashlight is concerned, I don't use them mounted to a gun either and here's my rational. While they may help illuminate the bad guys, it also marks you! It would be a natural instinct for a bad guy to return fire directly at your flashlight. If you have the gun on target guess where the light is...... right between your eyes! I much prefer the ability to know my own home, we leave 4 watt night lights on which is good for me but bad for them, and if I should need additional light I will use a flashlight - but not mounted on a gun. I like the ability to hold it as far away from my body as possible, and that would naturally be the point of aim for a BG.

So that's my theory, opinion and choice - yours may differ.

Night sights are worthless if you can't see your target. An attached light makes you a target. 12" below the light is center mass and you're dead. An off hand light is the only way to go.

gwpercle said:

I have been around 68 years now and survived one "situation" that evolved into a shooting inside house. I have two red dot sights that require batteries on revolvers for target shooting. My experience has been that when I get to the range, I find the batteries start dying while I'm shooting. Murphy's Law seems to dominate .
I can't trust my life to a battery powered anything because I tend to forget about the batteries until I turn them on. I have since bought a battery tester that shows how good-bad a battery is which helps decide when to change batteries....but I can't trust myself to NOT forget about the batteries. Even my flashlights get taken for granted until a hurricane is approaching ... then I check them.
If you are going to use lights and/or sights, in a life or death situation make sure the unit works every and all time ( a good i.e. expensive quality unit) and set up a strict schedule to test the unit and change the batteries.
In my one experience, things happened really fast, there was no time to turn on lights/lasers , only a fast response , the bad guy being a poor shot and with the grace of God I survived.
It's a personal decision to use these technological superior sighting tools and as long as they are properly working they are great, but when they stop working....they not so great.
Gary

Click to expand...

The Crimson Trace lasers we have on 3 of our guns will start strobbing the laser if the battery starts to die. So still very usable. And the batteries are lithium, so they don't run down much at all from just sitting.

We practice with and w/o the laser, and are good with each. I've never had issue one with any of our CT products, and hope that continues. But it's good to be prepared.

Some great points about the flashlight mounted under the barrel giving a target. Laser is much harder to see that way.

I gave careful consideration to having a red dot and being battery dependent. So I have setup regular checking/replacement of the battery. Also, the red dot I have stays on overnight when I am most likely to use it. I has an auto level so as long as the sight is in a dark place, like a drawer, very little power is used.

As for a light on/off the gun. If you use a handheld light, then you are shooting with one hand with it's potential inaccuracies even if you use the cross wrist technique. Yes, it gives the bad guy a aiming location but that is the tradeoff.

As for using a laser, it is great as long as you can see the laser on the target. If you are too close (inside the distance you sighted in the laser), you won't see the laser dot. While you can see it in the dark, w/o light you can't see what you are aiming at.

I'm not a fan of weapon mounted lights (WML) on a pistol. When searching in the dark, everywhere you point the light is being muzzled; rule 2 violation.

Using a hand-held light does not mean you're shooting one handed. It just means you need a little training on how to use the light.

Night sights can be helpful, but if there's enough light to properly identify the target, plain white dots are easily seen.

A laser can be a useful tool, but shouldn't be relied on. A shooter who practices with their iron sights will have no trouble shooting with a laser. A shooter who only practices with the laser will NOT be able to effectively use their iron sights should the need arise.

Without engaging in argument or pointing fingers, there is a lot of misinformation in this thread...especially in regard to the use of lights (and night sights) and the methodologies utilized in their employment. (I can't speak to lasers as I don't use them, and only have an Aimpoint RDS on my AR.)

It would appear that some folks either have had little or no training or experience with the use of light, night sights or have just rendered judgment without knowing any better. Well, it's the internet after all.

I hope anyone reading this thread looking for "answers" will take the time to find out for themselves. The decision to do so may prove worthwhile.

Good luck.

Okay, while I have a few minutes I'll address a few of the things I take issue with.

1. I have personally experienced instances where in dim light I could see the target but could not see my gun nor its sights. I relied on instinctive shooting but it was daunting at the distance. When I switched to night sights for the same scenario at the following qualification, I was able to see my sights while acquiring the target.

Also, they help one put their muzzle on the location they believe the threat to be even if the lighting is less than adequate to fully illuminate the threat.

2. A WML does not preclude the carriage of a handheld light for searches or other tasks. That said, a WML can be flicked on and off rapidly (as required) which not only may serve to disorient a threat, it allows one to step to one side or another to change position.

Also, with the bright lights on WMLs these days, one does not need to muzzle a target. There is ordinarily sufficient spill or reflected light to illuminate a subject without aiming directly at them.

Also, having a WML on a handgun doesn't require that it be employed.

There is more but hopefully you get the gist. I have no desire to engage in argument or a war of words. Those who have made up their minds one way or another won't care either way. I am only hoping to reach those who are still trying to learn while they have an open mind.

(I come by my experience from 20+ years in law enforcement, during which time I also served on SRT and trained with other SRT, local, state, federal and military teams such as SEALs, SAS, GSG-9 etc...plus personal training outside of the job.)

I went many, many years without night sights or a WML personally and they may or may not play a part in ones plans.

What I am arguing against is misinformation so that folks can make a proper decision for themselves.

Okay, I'm out.

ETA: I do not have a WML on any of my carry firearms. Only on my designated nightstand gun. I do, however, have night sights on each of my semi-autos. None on my revolvers.

Rastoff said:

I'm not a fan of weapon mounted lights (WML) on a pistol. When searching in the dark, everywhere you point the light is being muzzled; rule 2 violation.
....... .......
.........
A laser can be a useful tool, but shouldn't be relied on. A shooter who practices with their iron sights will have no trouble shooting with a laser. A shooter who only practices with the laser will NOT be able to effectively use their iron sights should the need arise.

Click to expand...

Words of wisdom and experience from member Rastoff, in my opinion, anyway.

I speak from the standpoint of having had laser (CT, good stuff), and getting rid of lasers in favor of practicing more with iron sights until the aim becomes more of an instinctive point, where the front sight seems not needing to be there. My response time, or target acquisition time, has shortened measurably counting on me and my firearm only.

Where I did find lasers useful was when they showed me how unsteady my 'hold' was on a target. That tipped me off that I needed much more practice to actually stay on target. So, as a training device, I could, actually I do, recommend a laser. As a crutch to supposedly enhance skills without practice, I suggest that you may trip over the crutch when you're in a clutch.

For many reasons stated above I will remain a 'minimalist', making use of no-frills equipment and training to become as close to 'one' with my EDC as possible. I guess this is a 'lesson learned' from years of trap shooting - the more you become one with your weapon, the quicker you will acquire your target, the more often you will be on target, more birds will break, and the higher your scores will become. I learned early on that being open to advice will also help boost the number of broken clays.

So, there are opinions in all directions! Your mileage may vary, no question about it. What is good for me may not be so for you, and vice versa. A friend of mine recently said,"Having a laser sight is like cheating at a gunfight." I didn't disagree, but took him to the range so that he could show me. He spent a metric ton of time lining up the laser with his target.
We agreed that he should practice and we will revisit the issue. I don't think he will practice or revisit. Hope I'm wrong.

Sorry that my tangent focused on lasers only. As for additional lighting, IMHO I am not intending to be a night hunter (as perhaps a LEO would be), but rather defending myself or close company. My perceived need for additional lighting is very limited, and I would not be attaching it to my EDC, but at best perhaps carrying an auxiliary lighting device.

Lights, lasers, and night sights are just additional tools which may or may not be necessary to those that consider using them.

If you choose to use them remember that they will not take the place of proper sight alignment and trigger control. They will not instantly make you shoot better.

The key is practice. Become proficient with the gun as it is. If you add another tool things change. Adapt to those changes and practice.

My thoughts, for whatever they're worth...

TL;DR version: I prefer neither weapon-mounted light, weapon-mounted laser, nor night sights. I like to keep things simple and rely on a handheld flashlight for illumination. My needs may not be compatible with yours, and vice versa.

The "I'm bored out of my skull and I have nothing better to do than to read this novel" version:

I view the handgun as a quick-reaction self defense tool, and if I were attacked I want my focus on my attacker. I use a target-focused approach. My focus is on the target, but I bring my gun up into my line of sight and look "through" the sights (target in-focus, fuzzy sights). This method allows me to get good hits quickly at close range, up to 5 yards or so, and even taking my time I can get decent groups up to 10 yards (the farthest I've tried, with minimal difference between target-focus and front-sight-focus). Worst-case scenario, I can still get a rough alignment between my eyes, my gun, and the target.

I've had guns with night sights. While I don't think they're bad, they're not for me. At least at this point in time. I tend to find them distracting. I prefer plain black sights. Generally speaking, if there's enough light to identify a threat, there's enough light to align your gun on target.

Speaking of which...Reference was made earlier to Tom Givens. I stumbled onto a YouTube video made by one of his students. The student took the slide of his Glock, which didn't have night sights (IIRC, it had plain black sights but with a red line painted down the center of the front sight) and took it around with him to all the places he typically goes, including at night time. Every place he visited had enough light for him to see his sights and ID threats.

I recall reading an article talking about low-light shooting. The author (it may have been Tom Givens...I can't remember) wrote that statistics showed that most shootings occurred during night time hours, which is where the idea that most shootings are low light incidents came from, but that the actual lighting conditions were generally not provided.

Of course, there are times when there may not be enough light. Which is why I keep 2 flashlights on me when out-and-about, have one on my nightstand, another by my computer, and others scattered about. Night sights can't ID threats. They allow you to reference your gun's position in relation to the target in low light, but if you can't ID the target they're not of much help. They can also help you see the gun on the nightstand in the dark. However, at least for me, that's not really necessary. Using an unloaded gun I have practiced grabbing my gun from my nightstand in my unlit bedroom. What I found is that even with the lights out there's enough ambient light coming in through the window that I can see my gun. I can also see my flashlight and can grab that, too, so I can ID potential threats.

Regarding flashlights...I've seen the arguments regarding the use of flashlights and giving away your position. Certainly possible. My thought is that the risk is worth it to be sure that the threat is actually a threat. Shining a bright light into an attacker's eyes is going to cause some disorientation in a dark room. If I've positively ID'd the threat, I can shut off the light, move, re-light, and fire if necessary (movements I've practiced...I've learned to keep the floor clutter-free by my bed...ask me how I learned that lesson... ). So, in my opinion, unless you use night vision goggles, you'll need some kind of illumination to ID threats.

Regarding lasers...I'll admit I've never used a laser. There may come a time when I will give it a try. But based on the training I've had and the practice I've done, I don't see the benefit as being worth the cost. I've heard the argument that using a laser brings your focus to the target, but that's not really true. It brings your focus to the dot where your gun is pointed. I don't want to get into the habit of looking for the dot when I should be focusing on the threat. Again, I consider the gun a quick-reaction self defense tool...Assess threat, fire if necessary. I want the chain between assessing the threat, making the decision to fire, and firing on the threat to be as short and simple as possible. While using a flashlight may be an extra step in that chain, I can't assess the threat if I can't see it.

Regarding weapon-mounted lights...I can see their utility in some circumstances. I think my issue with them stems from their operation, which either requires a pressure switch taped to the grip or a toggle on the light's body in front of the trigger guard. With a pressure switch, my concern would be gripping the gun tightly under stress and inadvertently turning the light on when I want it off. With the toggle switch, I'd have to use either my trigger finger or my support hand thumb to operate it. These are extra steps in the chain that I have to train my shooting hand to do. With the flashlight in my support hand, I can focus on shooting with my shooting hand. Obviously, I could train myself to operate a pressure switch or toggle switch, and there may come a time when I will experiment with that. But the biggest, most glaring (see what I did there?) issue is that I don't have any guns that can mount a WML.

This is just my opinion, for my own situation. As always, YMMV. Assess your needs, make whatever changes/accommodations you deem necessary, and practice.

Lots of poor information being written, and hopefully new shooters will seek out more information from other sources.

All of my home and carry guns have Crimson Trace lasers, the latest being on my Springfield Range officer Compact. My first was a S&W 642 that came from the S&W factory with a CT laser, that was 14 years ago and it has never failed and functions like new. The batteries have never failed and are changed every 6 months, whether they need it or not. The person who made the statement:

"I have two red dot sights that require batteries on revolvers for target shooting. My experience has been that when I get to the range, I find the batteries start dying while I'm shooting. Murphy's Law seems to dominate ."

is either using bad batteries or has defective sights.

I also have EOTech HWS on my AR's, and again, never had any issues with battteries. I have Magpul BUIS that co-witness with the EOTech, so batteries are not an issue anyway.

I have complete confidence and trust in Crimson Trace and would suggest anyone with doubts visit the Crimson Trace video library and view their material. If lasers and red dots are good enough for law enforcement and our military, they are more than good enough for me.

https://www.crimsontrace.com/company/video-media-library/

@ContinentalOp I think you may be referring to Dr. Sherman A. House (a gentleman I am happy to consider a friend I've never met face to face).

I believe he made a video of that sort and I know he has a close relationship to Tom Givens.

blues7 said:

Okay, I'm out.

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I hope not. You bring a level of not only real world experience, but rational thought that is not commonly found on internet forums.

PM inbound.

Rastoff said:

I hope not. You bring a level of not only real world experience, but rational thought that is not commonly found on internet forums.

PM inbound.

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No, buddy, I didn't mean that I was quitting, only that I had other things on the agenda for today than engaging in an internet battle. I'm a bit burned out is all.

You know I respect you and your opinions.
(Even if I don't necessarily agree, which is rare.)

IMHO when and why we need flashlights/night sights vary; so I don't think there's a hard and fast answer for all of us..............................

For the last 4-5years a Streamlight AAA/100 lumin flashlight rides in my off side jeans pocket..... from pants on to pants off........ it's my most used EDC item....... followed by my 'pocket knife" ..... I've never needed my 3913 in that time period

This past year I got a M&P9......to serve as my pants off to pants on gun.......... and added a streamlight TLR-3 125 lumin light ....... for when things go bump in the night and I have to roll out of bed in gym shorts and a T-shirt.

My house has several nightlights so I'm not walking around in the dark with the gun light as my primary illumination ...... but I do have a light if needed.

Some interesting discussion. Different circumstances call for different equipment. If I was in Law Enforcement and was searching a house, hand held light over a WML. Home owner behind cover waiting for the police to arrive, laser or red dot might be preferred. Walking in the park in the dark, hand held light better.