Originally Posted by Hondo44

Agreed and done. My apologies, and please let me know if the edit suffices.

Direct quotes have always been credited to you and others as in post #13.

Thank you for the heads up,

Originally Posted by Hondo44

* Much of the data below compiled from posts by LEE JARRETT. Also gleaned from Roy Jink's and other's books, observations of many other members, and personal observation as well. Direct quotes from LEE's and other member's posts are credited to them in the text below.

Originally Posted by handejector

Just for clarity-
I've never seen a Heavy Duty built on a 1917 frame. All HDs are flat tops because they came out in 1930. N Frames became flat tops in 1927. WW I 1917 frames are round tops.
I've never seen a round top Brazilian shipped in the PRE-War shipments, only flat tops built on COMMERCIAL frames. The 1917 Commercials (non-Brazilians) from the 30s that I have seen are flat top commercial frames. You will occasionally see some flat top Brazilians with Springfield inspected barrels or cylinders.
All round top Brazilians I have seen shipped in the POST-War shipments.

Originally Posted by handejector

Confusion abounds on 1917s.
So, I'll state a few things again that I believe to be facts-

1>The first Brazilian Contract in 1936 was all commercial guns exactly like any other commercial 1917s of the period:
A- Flat Top
B- High Polish
C- Numbered ABOVE the WW I range
D- Frames will NOT have Springfield stamps because they were made after the War
E- Barrels and cylinders may or may not have Springfield stamps
F- Checkered grips with medallions
G- ALL have logos on left
H- All have numbers read with barrel pointing right

1946 Brazilians-
Everybody wants to complicate these guns. They're simple. Hellstrom found a bunch of scrap iron, and turned it into money.
The remaining WW I frames were most likely discovered when they cleaned up after WW II and were getting ready to eventually MOVE the Factory. The new Factory was going to be totally self-financed. NO loans. Hellstrom had been hired as President at a fixed salary PLUS a percentage of profits. That deal eventually made him one of the highest paid executives in the US!
Are you tracking with me here?
CASH FLOW......
PROFITS......
We can take these obsolete, outdated, useless frames and scrap them when we move because we can't make guns with them because we haven't sold a round top frame with those awful, narrow sights in 20 years (since 1927)
OR........
Make the Brazilians an offer they can't refuse.
We'll be shipping those obsolete frames WAY off so they don't make us look bad. We'll be making good money off of scarp iron. We'll be using up all those damn barrels and cylinders the Gov made us buy back after WW I.
We're filling a 12,000 piece order with most of the materials paid for so long ago they are basically free.
WHOOPEE!
2> 1946 Brazilians I have seen-
A- All are Round Top WW I frames
B- Satin Blue
C- No hammer blocks
D- Logo on left, "Made in USA" on right
E- Smooth grips. Newly made, not leftovers. Numbered to the gun.
F- Frames may or may not have a Springfield stamp. If a frame was a reject, it won't have an acceptance stamp. If a frame was simply a leftover that did not get used, it may have the stamp.
G- The number is read with barrel pointing left.
A 1946 Brazilian can have a serial number that falls ANYWHERE in the 1917 range. I've seen several 5 digits. I've seen a 4 digit. There are rumors of a 3 digit or two.
THIS is where the only mystery for me comes in-
WHY / WHEN / HOW was a WWI US contract number put on a surplus frame? IF the frame was numbered in WWI, it would also have the "US Army" marks. So, did they grind that off and re-stamp the number, or did they simply find an UNUSED number in the records and stamp it on a previously unnumbered frame? IF that is what they did, WHY? Why not just keep going with where the numbers were at that time? Puzzling.


General Data-
Most Brazilians have mismatched grips. They apparently came in soaked or packed in oil or cosmoline.
I think Century pulled the grips off most of them, soaked them in solvent, and threw a pair of grips back on them. They paid no attention to whether the gun should have checkered or smooth grips.

The Transition guns in the final run were all Flat Tops.
They all have modern hammer blocks whether they have the S or not.
All I have seen had swivels.
All shipped with checkered magnas.

Brazilian armorers apparently did many repairs over the years. I've seen replaced, unnumbered barrels made by S&W. I've seen replaced, unnumbered barrels that were NOT made by S&W that were probably made in Brazil.
I've seen reblued Brazilians that I believe had been reblued in Brazil. Generally, fairly nice matte blue. They did not appear to have been buffed. More likely pickled or bead blasted.

Originally Posted by DCWilson

I confess to some confusion about the size of the 1946 contract. Until a couple of days ago I had it in mind that this was a 15,000 unit order, or 60% the size of the 1937 contract. But then I refreshed my memory about the 10,000 frames S&W bought back from the government and thought that I had falsely inflated the size of the second order by 5,000 units in my memory. Now I find with a little internet research some assertions that the 1946 contract amounted to 12,000 units, most of which were built on the old frames and a couple of thousand of which were higher numbered and apparently built on the flat-top frame used for the guns in the 1937 contract.

If I can figure out and clarify what is going on with the serial number sequences I will post again. This feels like one of those questions that it ought to be possible to answer fairly accurately, and I am getting the feeling that I am only about 90% of the way there.