HI Rob and blackstuff thanks for the invaluable feedback, well i have learnt a lot and had just nailed down 3GN & GhostMutt's advice and now you have given me more to think about, i want to do mini gun and want the right setup from the start so back to the drawing board. Rob i love the setup green on black very nice. 24c is pricey so the CMC might be an option. Rob do you prefer the Squib grips on the Troy Alpha rather than a AFG?