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Old 10-09-2018, 11:59 PM
Duckford Duckford is offline
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Originally Posted by rwt1405 View Post
I am not, nor claim to be, an expert on this, but I do like to think of myself as a "student" of this event, among others.

I think you really need to go back and research the events, etc., surrounding the "Miami shootout".

I think you will find the failure was NOT of ammunition, but of tactics.
Except for the fact that Dove's bullet (the one that mortally wounded the bank robber but did not kill him fast enough) was on a b-line for the heart and stopped short. The fact is, Dove's ammunition choice DID get him killed that day. A better 9mm hollow point would have saved him, a 357 Magnum, a 45 ACP in hollow points would have saved him. Certainly the FBI agents that day made mistakes, but 9mm Luger fanbois work overtime to convince you that's all that was wrong and try to obscure the fact that the hollow point choice that day ended up with two dead FBI agents. That's a fact.

Its why the 12 inch minimum in gel tests is so important, and its good to see people concerned about it in their carry considerations. Bullets that can't hack it in a gel test aren't a smart choice, and when comparing apples to oranges in gel test results deeper is better. 18 inch is better than 12 inch, and the practice of some to judge everything by expansion and just sneaking over the 12 inch mark have potential holes in their theory and parameters. Especially the folks who "well, half the bullets made it to the 12 inch mark even if the other half didn't, and it expanded alright, let's go with it" or the far worse "well, even if 100% of the bullets failed the FBI penetration depth, I like the look of that gelly wound track". A handgun round that doesn't get deep enough to hit something of value is potentially worthless.

I made a video on the subject, and when you consider shot angles in human beings and various situations police and civilians defending themselves might find themselves in, 18 inches in some situations can be almost short. Put the attackers arms in the right place, and change how you stand or sit or are ont he ground after being knocked down, it might be a long way to the man's heart to change his mind.

Its one of the strongest points 45 ACP and 357 Magnum have with improvements in 9mm Luger. It isn't so much that 45 will expand larger with modern hollow points, its the fact it can penetrate deep with expanded bullets and do so very consistently. 357 Magnum wasn't always killing with magical high velocity damage that never existed, it succeeded because it consistently expanded (even back in the early days of hollow points where rates of bullets expanding as designed were sometimes very low) and punched deep. 10mm wasn't going to super outdamage 9mm, it was going to consistently out penetrate it, as well as have greater damage potential.

The guys carrying 148 grain wadcutters are a bit more on the ball than those carrying lightweight 38 hollow points that might actually expand and prevent proper penetration. Might be easy to criticize the men still carrying low power Keiths in their 44's and 45's, then again they have worked. Choose a good hollow point that has proof behind it, don't just buy magic beans, or buy hollow points that have poor performance just because 'hollow point", or buy hollow points for cartridges that can't use them properly, or light loads that can't use them.

Better safer than sorrier in these types of situations. Rare enough to use a firearm in self defense, it would be a shame to lose because you chose a poor load because of average odds.
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