.38 Military & Police (Postwar) – “Pre-Model 10”

Bhfromme

Bhfromme

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Looking at a .38 Military & Police (Postwar) – “Pre-Model 10”. I go home and try to read up on it in the SWSC and now I'm totally baffled and hoping some of you out there can clear up the confusion.

It's serial number S86746x which puts it somewhere between 1945 and 1948 meaning it's definitely a "Postwar" model. But it has the single line "Made in U.S.A." on the right side and the catalog states very clearly that the Postwar models all have the four line address of “Made In U.S.A., Marcus Registradas, Smith & Wesson Springfield, Mass.” on the right side.

Does that mean this is some kind of weird Transitional Model? Any wisdom you can share will be greatly appreciated. Thanks.
 
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That’s a post-war .38 M&P long action. You’ll notice that the hammer spur is located near the top of the hammer. The spur is near the center on short action guns. The “Made in U.S.A.” stamp is correct. A lot of people refer to it as a transitional.

The “S” prefix signifies that the gun has a hammer-drop safety. I believe S&W changes to the short action on this model around serial number S99X,XXX
 
The four-line trademark came in 1948. So the S-prefix M&P’s still have the one line.
 
Thanks. What box did the Post-war .38s come in? The red two piece box? Can someone send me a photo of one maybe?
 
.38 M&P revolvers in the S867xxx range were shipping in January and February, 1947.

The box could have been either maroon or gold. The gold boxes were available by that time, but some may still have shipped in the maroon box. These are two piece boxes.

The maroon box.
jp-ak-albums-miscellaneous-revolvers-picture11921-postwar-m-p-box-800x600.jpg


Gold box.
jp-ak-albums-miscellaneous-revolvers-picture19835-32-m-p-1948-a.jpg
 
Last edited:
Absalom said:
The four-line trademark came in 1948. So the S-prefix M&P’s still have the one line.
Click to expand...

SWSC says and I quote:

Postwar production frames will also have the four address lines of “Made In U.S.A., Marcus Registradas, Smith & Wesson Springfield, Mass.” on the right side.

So if the one I put a hold on shipped in 1947 has the single line "Made in U.S.A." it must mean in the early years after the war they were using up what they had left of the old frames? Yes? Jack?
 
Bill, right after WWII ended, S&W shipped some M&P's with SV serial prefixes, plugged lanyard ring holes and commercial finishes. New commercial frames with S prefix serials did not have the lanyard holes and I believe that is the only difference. I also believe the single line and 4 line frames are the same except for the stampings.
 
Bhfromme said:
SWSC says and I quote:

Postwar production frames will also have the four address lines of “Made In U.S.A., Marcus Registradas, Smith & Wesson Springfield, Mass.” on the right side.

So if the one I put a hold on shipped in 1947 has the single line "Made in U.S.A." it must mean in the early years after the war they were using up what they had left of the old frames? Yes? Jack?
Click to expand...

No. That quote from the SCSW, read literally, is just plain wrong.

Of the M&Ps produced post-war, which started shipping in Feb. 1946, the earliest several thousands used “left-over” Victory frames.

But then there were something over 180,000 guns with newly made frames and with the MADE IN USA produced until 1948. Nothing left over ;)
 
What's that you say? The Bible is wrong? Better watch out for lightning next time you go outside!
 
Wiregrassguy said:
Bill, right after WWII ended, S&W shipped some M&P's with SV serial prefixes, plugged lanyard ring holes and commercial finishes. New commercial frames with S prefix serials did not have the lanyard holes and I believe that is the only difference. I also believe the single line and 4 line frames are the same except for the stampings.
Click to expand...
There are some M&Ps with just an S prefix that have plugged swivel holes.
 
Bhfromme said:
What's that you say? The Bible is wrong? Better watch out for lightning next time you go outside!
Click to expand...
Jim Supica has a thread on the SWCA side of this Forum in which we can post mistakes we find in the SCSW. He was careful to consider those posts when he compiled the 4th Edition, so it contains improvements over the 3d Edition.

I fully expect to see the same thing when the 5th Edition comes out. The SWCA is a GREAT resource and many of us consult it on nearly a daily basis. But no, it isn't perfect. What is, in this life (besides God)?

As with all things S&W, there is always plenty to learn. We help each other do that.
 
The S867xxx I'm looking at does not have the lanyard holes.
 
Bhfromme said:
The S867xxx I'm looking at does not have the lanyard holes.
Click to expand...

By that time, it would only have one if it had a swivel originally as a special order.

It’s an interesting question to consider:

Were the early S-prefix M&P’s with plugged holes really built on Victory frames that were manufactured and left over from the time before Victory assembly ended in mid-1945?

The factory had produced only M&P frames with swivel holes for the previous four years, since sometime in 1941, for all applications. Did they possibly just keep producing frames like that until it occurred to somebody in early 1946 that nobody wanted swivels anymore and time and labor could be saved?
 
Absalom said:
It’s an interesting question to consider:

Were the early S-prefix M&P’s with plugged holes really built on Victory frames that were manufactured and left over from the time before Victory assembly ended in mid-1945?

The factory had produced only M&P frames with swivel holes for the previous four years, since sometime in 1941, for all applications. Did they possibly just keep producing frames like that until it occurred to somebody in early 1946 that nobody wanted swivels anymore and time and labor could be saved?
Click to expand...
I think this is a very reasonable question. I've never been able to fully buy in to the idea that all the SV and early S guns were actually "leftover frames" from the period 1941 up to August, 1945. There certainly is no proof of this theory.

The period from September, 1945, until February, 1946, was a time of transition from the wartime practices to full-on civilian production and sales. The company had much to do: the supply chain had to be reorganized, the sales force redeveloped, machine tool reconfiguration accomplished, production lines established, engineering changes implemented, other models reintroduced, and the list goes on. It would seem that reconfiguring the M&P production line would be the least of their concerns. After all, except for the bluing process, nothing urgent really had to change to address the pent-up demand for the M&P. That demand is illustrated by the M&P constituting the first large postwar shipment of revolvers to Cleveland PD in February, 1946. Also by the resumption of shipment of many hundreds of M&Ps in March of the same year.

Therefore, I tend to believe that many of the SV and especially the S prefix guns that shipped in the first few months of 1946 may well have had frames that were produced after the production of Victory Models had ceased.

I'm not sure we will ever know the answer with any certainty.
 
I'm inclined to believe there were LOTS of frames on hand when the War ended. Remember- the Gov't had been real testy about getting orders on time, and S&W REALLY wanted to avoid having the plant nationalized AGAIN. Also, remember that the last contracts of the War were cancelled when Japan surrendered. So, I'm thinking they had parts!
Think about it for a minute- do you really think they were building frames, drilling a swivel hole AND crosspin hole, then making plugs, installing the plugs, and sanding them smooth? Duhhhhhhh...............don't you think somebody would have been smart enough to yell "YOU GUYS QUIT DRILLING SWIVEL HOLES!!!!!" ???? :D
 
handejector said:
….
Think about it for a minute- do you really think they were building frames, drilling a swivel hole AND crosspin hole, then making plugs, installing the plugs, and sanding them smooth? Duhhhhhhh...............don't you think somebody would have been smart enough to yell "YOU GUYS QUIT DRILLING SWIVEL HOLES!!!!!" ???? :D
Click to expand...

Well, if you put it that way ….. :)

On the other hand, just for the sake of argument, if you look at the development of employee numbers since 1941, there weren‘t likely that many people at S&W who had ever seen a K-frame produced without a hole. And for all the blather about old-time craftsmanship that old guys like to engage in, these weren‘t craftsmen, but industrial workers, not paid to think. The guy who drilled the whole is very unlikely to also be the guy to later plug it. So it seems entirely feasible that at least some of Jack’s 9000 hole-y S-prefix frames were produced before your smart guy yelled stop.
 
JP@AK said:
Jim Supica has a thread on the SWCA side of this Forum in which we can post mistakes we find in the SCSW. He was careful to consider those posts when he compiled the 4th Edition, so it contains improvements over the 3d Edition.

I fully expect to see the same thing when the 5th Edition comes out. The SWCA is a GREAT resource and many of us consult it on nearly a daily basis. But no, it isn't perfect. What is, in this life (besides God)?

As with all things S&W, there is always plenty to learn. We help each other do that.
Click to expand...

I certainly meant no disrespect. Tracking the history of S&W firearms over the years has to be incredibly challenging and hats off to Jim Supica and all of the SWSC contributors over the years for publishing such an extremely accurate and entertaining catalog.
 
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