Where should I post a question about recoil control/sensitivity/grip recommendations? Doesn't seem to be a "general" section where this could comfortably go (including here!)
Revolver grips/grip technique question
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CCantu357
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It seems that grip and recoil questions would fall under the enhancement category. I figure this might be the best place to ask your question!
First tip is this...IF your hand size will allow you to use a rubber grip where rubber is covering the backstrap....That can go a long..long way. On J--frames, I can easily do so. On K/L's, it depends on the grip. On N-frames, I can 'work' with it, but my DA control suffers. However, no problem if using it SA, of course.
OP
Ok, if it's appropriate here, this is what i was going to post:
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I must be a wimp.
Recoil-sensitive with a .38 Special Model 10? So it seems. Even with moderate loads (4.0 gr. 231 and 158 gr. lead) I find that the bone at the base of my thumb gets whacked. Initially this was with the factory grips and a grip adaptor. (I use a wrap-around, "thumb-over-thumb" grip.) So I tried a Pachmayr Presentation grip. Feels a bit big for my medium hands but certainly has more "rubber real estate" to spread the recoil. Slightly better, but not much.
I noticed that when shooting single-action I got walloped less. Not much difference in how I was gripping the gun except that there may be a tiny change in the position relative to the bone of my thumb as I bring my trigger finger out to use the pad rather than the distal joint. I could try Hogues on it; I find they are the best on my 625-8 with stiffer 250 gr. loads, but they are kinda ugly and I don't really like finger grooves even though they seem to fit me.
But I wonder of there isn't some slight adjustment I need to make in how I grip the gun as a .38 Special shouldn't hurt unless you're shooting +P or +P+ loads, although the Model 10 is a fairly light revolver. I don't recall any discomfort with my 6" Model 14 with the big target grips.
I had my Ruger SP101 out at the range as well, with moderate .357 loads: 12 gr. of 2400 over 158 gr. hard cast lead or Hornady XTP - really a "38-44 load". More blast of course. The XTP were a little less punishing, perhaps because they were going a littie slower. I was using the factory grips, which I find are pretty good. I have tried Hogues on it and it's about the same. Of course a small revolver like that is going to kick in .357.
I haven't done a lot of shooting this year so it may just be a matter of more shooting to toughen up the web of my hand?
This seems to only apply to revolvers. My STI Spartan .45 and Ruger SR45 are fine (5.7 gr. of 231 and a 200 gr. bullet)
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I must be a wimp.
Recoil-sensitive with a .38 Special Model 10? So it seems. Even with moderate loads (4.0 gr. 231 and 158 gr. lead) I find that the bone at the base of my thumb gets whacked. Initially this was with the factory grips and a grip adaptor. (I use a wrap-around, "thumb-over-thumb" grip.) So I tried a Pachmayr Presentation grip. Feels a bit big for my medium hands but certainly has more "rubber real estate" to spread the recoil. Slightly better, but not much.
I noticed that when shooting single-action I got walloped less. Not much difference in how I was gripping the gun except that there may be a tiny change in the position relative to the bone of my thumb as I bring my trigger finger out to use the pad rather than the distal joint. I could try Hogues on it; I find they are the best on my 625-8 with stiffer 250 gr. loads, but they are kinda ugly and I don't really like finger grooves even though they seem to fit me.
But I wonder of there isn't some slight adjustment I need to make in how I grip the gun as a .38 Special shouldn't hurt unless you're shooting +P or +P+ loads, although the Model 10 is a fairly light revolver. I don't recall any discomfort with my 6" Model 14 with the big target grips.
I had my Ruger SP101 out at the range as well, with moderate .357 loads: 12 gr. of 2400 over 158 gr. hard cast lead or Hornady XTP - really a "38-44 load". More blast of course. The XTP were a little less punishing, perhaps because they were going a littie slower. I was using the factory grips, which I find are pretty good. I have tried Hogues on it and it's about the same. Of course a small revolver like that is going to kick in .357.
I haven't done a lot of shooting this year so it may just be a matter of more shooting to toughen up the web of my hand?
This seems to only apply to revolvers. My STI Spartan .45 and Ruger SR45 are fine (5.7 gr. of 231 and a 200 gr. bullet)
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You have issues with your hand? Arthritis, trigger fingers? Grip should be primarily with 2 middle fingers leaving pinky loose, squeezing back into web of hand thumb with thumb wrapped around top of left side scale/grip. Having Any arthritis in right hand, or left if South paw, will cause Big problems.
I have a similar thumb problem. You might try thinner grips, which let you wrap your hand around farther... object is to have a skinnier grip at the web to move the thumb bone farther forward around the grip, away from the rearward recoil force.
Still working this out, but a cheap experiment (for J frame) is the rubber grips on ebay that go for something like $12. They help me a lot, and their thinness makes them work better in a pocket as well.
(Edit: just checked and don’t see any listed... will try to find a pic.)
Still working this out, but a cheap experiment (for J frame) is the rubber grips on ebay that go for something like $12. They help me a lot, and their thinness makes them work better in a pocket as well.
(Edit: just checked and don’t see any listed... will try to find a pic.)
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OP
No arthritis so far, thsnk heavens, although occasionally a little soreness in my left (weak) hand in that same area which could be a touch of arth. But you may be right that I need to pay more attention to my grip.
@mikerjf: I don't think I can get any skinnier grips than the factory originals! But getting that bone away from the recoil force does make sense. That may be what was happening when I switched to SA. Only concern could be trigger reach.
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Unless you have severe arthritis, shooting conventional factory loads from any K-frame should not hurt, regardless of strength. Getting used to battering your palm or joints may not be the best answer (even if it seems to work).
Hint #1:
Hint #2:
The dominant hand AND wrist should move with the recoil, the elbow and shoulder should function as pivots, and the muscles and tendons in the arm should be the shock absorber, not the palm. After absorbing the recoil, the muscles and tendons should resume the same position and help return to the point of aim. That is how muscle memory works in the gym when doing reps. (I know that is a lot of "should" in one paragraph...
).
Hint #1:
There is a good chance that when you shoot single action, you loosen/readjust/tighten your grip slightly after each shot while cocking the hammer. The gun may be shifting/twisting slightly during recoil, and you are adjusting for that in SA, but not while shooting DA.
Hint #2:
This if nothing else should suggest that it may be the grip, not strength. The gun should not move in your hand to the point there is an impact to any bone. It is possible you are stabilizing the grips front to back more, and not enough side-to-side.
The dominant hand AND wrist should move with the recoil, the elbow and shoulder should function as pivots, and the muscles and tendons in the arm should be the shock absorber, not the palm. After absorbing the recoil, the muscles and tendons should resume the same position and help return to the point of aim. That is how muscle memory works in the gym when doing reps. (I know that is a lot of "should" in one paragraph...
).
OP
...
Hint #1:There is a good chance that when you shoot single action, you loosen/readjust/tighten your grip slightly after each shot while cocking the hammer. The gun may be shifting/twisting slightly during recoil, and you are adjusting for that in SA, but not while shooting DA.
Hint #2:This if nothing else should suggest that it may be the grip, not strength. The gun should not move in your hand to the point there is an impact to any bone. It is possible you are stabilizing the grips front to back more, and not enough side-to-side.
The dominant hand AND wrist should move with the recoil, the elbow and shoulder should function as pivots, and the muscles and tendons in the arm should be the shock absorber, not the palm. After absorbing the recoil, the muscles and tendons should resume the same position and help return to the point of aim. That is how muscle memory works in the gym when doing reps. (I know that is a lot of "should" in one paragraph...
Thanks for this. It seems that a) I have, perhaps unwittingly, answered my own questions by writing them down, and b) need to "get a grip", at least a better one. The comment about stabilizing side-to-side is interesting. I find the Pachmayr Presentation grip rather "long", front-to back, probably because it covers the backstrap, so perhsps it is harder to grip side-to-side because I can't get my fingers around it quite as well. The Hogue on my 625 covers the backstrap as well but it is subtly different.
Maybe I'll get one of those muscle exerciser balls, or even a strong spring-loaded woodworking clamp and do a lot of squeezing to strengthen the muscles in my right hand. I'm not necessarily "weak" in that hand but strengthening my grip can only help.
Interestingly, I found that when shooting the 45 ACPs, I actually shoot better when I don't use quite as strong a grip, but the geometry of a semi-auto is very different than a revolver, as is the recoil impulse and how it is distributed.
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Comparing revolver and semiauto grips is a different can of worms.
The vertical distance from the center bore of a typical Gen 3 semiauto to the center of the pad of the trigger finger is about 1.8 inches (compared to 2.3~2.4 on a K-frame). That helps align the web of the hand (and wrist) with the trigger at the break. There are a lot of good videos about semi-auto grip and recoil control on youtube (Dan Vogel, Masaad Ayoob, etc) They do not transfer completely to a revolver though.
Since your inquiry is open ended, my guess is that you will derive the most benefit by cherry picking individual points from a number of posts. I have structured my response with that idea in mind.
The issue with grips, and what you want to accomplish, is never-ending because it is so individual.
Since this is a revolver based inquiry, I will confine my comments accordingly.
We all have varying hand sizes, strengths, and configurations, but grip frames, grip sizes and configurations, and length of pull distances are far less variable, so we seek compromises that will best meet our needs.
I have large hands, but relatively short fingers. I wear extra large gloves, but I have room left over in the finger lengths. If I try large gloves, the fit is too snug to allow freedom of movement. That is an example of an individual characteristic that must be met with the proper selection of grips.
Going back to my PPC and duty days, I only ever shoot a DA revolver DA. Given my short fingers I need to have my hand somewhat more oriented towards the finger side in order to get my trigger finger far enough in for proper (for me) control. This eliminates a covered back strap, because the length of pull would be too long. Many old competitive shooters, myself included, could sense the impending shot break point by our index finger tip just meeting the frame behind the trigger. Even with duty spec rounds, recoil did/does not bother me.
If your DA revolver shooting is predominantly SA, as many shooters here state theirs is, the above is not applicable to you.
Since the classes I taught were for future and new LEOs, and revolvers were the predominant sidearm in this era, and DA was the only way most departments fired, this was the hand-revolver relationship I taught. The issue then was which grips would facilitate that relationship. Any factory optional or aftermarket grip provided the all-important filler behind the trigger guard. From there on is where individual preferences come into play.
Between S&W target grips, various covered backstrap grips like Pachmayrs, and combat grips like the Hogue monogrip, I found that my students preferred the Hogue monogrip and the Rogers (later Safariland) grips. These two seemed to accommodate the broadest ranges of hand sizes, shapes and strengths for DA shooting.
A couple more training points I used:
1. At the outset I would have the students shake hands with each other, using a firm (not dead fish) handshake. Trying to strangle the grip frame would only induce tremors and fatigue. This handshake was the proper amount of grip firmness to apply
2. Let the revolver recoil. That is the natural reaction to the shot being fired. I told my students we hadn't yet had a fatality from recoil. Don't fear it and don't try to suppress it.
This of course led to an extensive discourse on flinching, and how fatal it is to marksmanship. I used the ball and dummy drill when I noticed, from the target, a student was flinching. Very effective teaching tool.
3. I had my students lock their wrists, but leave their elbows and shoulders flexible. The intent here was to transfer the recoil to the larger muscle masses in the arms and shoulders as they can more easily and comfortably absorb that recoil.
In the same frame size, different revolver configurations may necessitate different grips. For me, Hogue monogrips balance better with short barrels, and Rogers (sadly, no longer made) balance better with longer and/or heavy barrels. It is often a close call, but I was always trying to eke out an additional 'X' on the target.
What all this means is that you may go through a number of grips before you find what works best for you and your various revolvers.
The issue with grips, and what you want to accomplish, is never-ending because it is so individual.
Since this is a revolver based inquiry, I will confine my comments accordingly.
We all have varying hand sizes, strengths, and configurations, but grip frames, grip sizes and configurations, and length of pull distances are far less variable, so we seek compromises that will best meet our needs.
I have large hands, but relatively short fingers. I wear extra large gloves, but I have room left over in the finger lengths. If I try large gloves, the fit is too snug to allow freedom of movement. That is an example of an individual characteristic that must be met with the proper selection of grips.
Going back to my PPC and duty days, I only ever shoot a DA revolver DA. Given my short fingers I need to have my hand somewhat more oriented towards the finger side in order to get my trigger finger far enough in for proper (for me) control. This eliminates a covered back strap, because the length of pull would be too long. Many old competitive shooters, myself included, could sense the impending shot break point by our index finger tip just meeting the frame behind the trigger. Even with duty spec rounds, recoil did/does not bother me.
If your DA revolver shooting is predominantly SA, as many shooters here state theirs is, the above is not applicable to you.
Since the classes I taught were for future and new LEOs, and revolvers were the predominant sidearm in this era, and DA was the only way most departments fired, this was the hand-revolver relationship I taught. The issue then was which grips would facilitate that relationship. Any factory optional or aftermarket grip provided the all-important filler behind the trigger guard. From there on is where individual preferences come into play.
Between S&W target grips, various covered backstrap grips like Pachmayrs, and combat grips like the Hogue monogrip, I found that my students preferred the Hogue monogrip and the Rogers (later Safariland) grips. These two seemed to accommodate the broadest ranges of hand sizes, shapes and strengths for DA shooting.
A couple more training points I used:
1. At the outset I would have the students shake hands with each other, using a firm (not dead fish) handshake. Trying to strangle the grip frame would only induce tremors and fatigue. This handshake was the proper amount of grip firmness to apply
2. Let the revolver recoil. That is the natural reaction to the shot being fired. I told my students we hadn't yet had a fatality from recoil. Don't fear it and don't try to suppress it.
This of course led to an extensive discourse on flinching, and how fatal it is to marksmanship. I used the ball and dummy drill when I noticed, from the target, a student was flinching. Very effective teaching tool.
3. I had my students lock their wrists, but leave their elbows and shoulders flexible. The intent here was to transfer the recoil to the larger muscle masses in the arms and shoulders as they can more easily and comfortably absorb that recoil.
In the same frame size, different revolver configurations may necessitate different grips. For me, Hogue monogrips balance better with short barrels, and Rogers (sadly, no longer made) balance better with longer and/or heavy barrels. It is often a close call, but I was always trying to eke out an additional 'X' on the target.
What all this means is that you may go through a number of grips before you find what works best for you and your various revolvers.
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OP
Excellent points!
I rarely shoot my DA revolvers SA, so your comment sbout length of pull with the covered backstrap seems spot on. The Pachmayr Presentation grip does seem too long. It is thick enough at the top of the backstrap that I could probably thin it out, but probably better is just to find a different grip that suits my particular hand characteristics. This probably explains why so many people have boxes of grips stashed away! I put the original factory grips back on the Model 10, minus the grip adaptor and it does give me better positioning. Perhaps a rubber grip of similar characteristics but with a thinner section over the backstrap might work. The Hogue isn't expensive so I may try it.
I checked the feel on my Model 14 and 19, both of which have the big target grips. Despite their size, they're not as bad as they could be, perhaps because the perceived trigger pull is less and I don't need full distal joint contact. The 14s apparently came with factory-applied "fairy dust"; the 19 I did quite a bit of work on although I can't get it as nice as the 14. Same wth the Model 10. Both triggers are perfectly acceptable.
Letting the gun recoil. This is what I found with my semi-autos. The instruction I once read to "start with a death grip then back off a bit" seemed excessive. Just use a solid grip and let the gun do what the laws of physics will have it do anyway. If the positioning of the revolver is right, the recoil won't be a problem, esp. with the relatively sedate loads I make up.
Many thanks for your advice
If you think that factory grips are slim, you haven't tried enough grips. Factory Magna grips are fat! Adding a grip adapter will probably make things worse in some cases.
Fit is EVERYTHING, and what one person claims as a general rule may be true for him, but FALSE for some or many other people.
You need to start over from the beginning. You are correct to get the middle of the first bone of the trigger finger on the trigger. Next thing is that, at least for one-hand shooting, a straight line (viewed from above) should pass through your forearm and the barrel of the gun. The gun should rest on your middle finger and be held comfortably by the thumb and three fingers. This probably won't happen with factory grips.
Note: some guns may too large for your hand. I have what most glove manufacturers call extra large hands. This is ridiculous, and tells you something (I'm not sure what) about glove manufacturers. My hands are probably medium to medium small among American males. Among American male shooters, they are bit small. K frame square butt is tolerable, but round butt is better. I have to be careful what grips I choose with any revolver, but classic S&W factory grips are out of the question for me, and probably for most shooters.
Are you aware that Pachmayr Presentations are or used to be made in two sizes? Have you tried Rogers or Rogers/Safariland grips?
It is difficult to prescribe from here, but from your comments on the Presentations, it sounds as though your hands are smaller, like mine.
If you don't like Hogues or Rogers, another way to get a grip adapter on the gun without excessive grip circumference is to try service grips instead of Magnas. Service grips are the prewar flat slabs that didn't pass beyond the circular cutout in the grip frame.
Excellent post by RetCapt! Worth rereading.
Fit is EVERYTHING, and what one person claims as a general rule may be true for him, but FALSE for some or many other people.
You need to start over from the beginning. You are correct to get the middle of the first bone of the trigger finger on the trigger. Next thing is that, at least for one-hand shooting, a straight line (viewed from above) should pass through your forearm and the barrel of the gun. The gun should rest on your middle finger and be held comfortably by the thumb and three fingers. This probably won't happen with factory grips.
Note: some guns may too large for your hand. I have what most glove manufacturers call extra large hands. This is ridiculous, and tells you something (I'm not sure what) about glove manufacturers. My hands are probably medium to medium small among American males. Among American male shooters, they are bit small. K frame square butt is tolerable, but round butt is better. I have to be careful what grips I choose with any revolver, but classic S&W factory grips are out of the question for me, and probably for most shooters.
Are you aware that Pachmayr Presentations are or used to be made in two sizes? Have you tried Rogers or Rogers/Safariland grips?
It is difficult to prescribe from here, but from your comments on the Presentations, it sounds as though your hands are smaller, like mine.
If you don't like Hogues or Rogers, another way to get a grip adapter on the gun without excessive grip circumference is to try service grips instead of Magnas. Service grips are the prewar flat slabs that didn't pass beyond the circular cutout in the grip frame.
Excellent post by RetCapt! Worth rereading.
Grips either fit your hand perfectly or you're just settling for what's available.
Gripology 101.
Hand tracings will get you grips in the ballpark, or may seem perfect, but adding or removing small amounts of material can make them even more perfect.
The entire hand(s) should absorb the recoil, not in any one area, and it transfers to the arms and upper body.
Fun chore getting X frame grips to work for me and am getting close with two different styles and two variations on the right side grip.
Mine and a modified Nill.
No reason to shift your hand when pulling the hammer back for SA if your grips fit right and that's important to you.
Make everything feel like a 1911 despite the backstrap's curve.
And a proper place for the weak hand as well.
Gripology 101.
Hand tracings will get you grips in the ballpark, or may seem perfect, but adding or removing small amounts of material can make them even more perfect.
The entire hand(s) should absorb the recoil, not in any one area, and it transfers to the arms and upper body.
Fun chore getting X frame grips to work for me and am getting close with two different styles and two variations on the right side grip.
Mine and a modified Nill.
No reason to shift your hand when pulling the hammer back for SA if your grips fit right and that's important to you.
Make everything feel like a 1911 despite the backstrap's curve.
And a proper place for the weak hand as well.
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OP
I remember an article in Rifle mag several years ago about Alaskan guide Phil Shoemaker's .458 Win mag, which he nicknamed "Ol' Ugly" It certainly was; he had sanded bits down and stuck bits of fiberglass on it until it really fit him. When the sewage hits the ventilation system you do't want to be fighting your rifle. Presumably the same with your X-frame.Grips either fit your hand perfectly or you're just settling for what's available.
Gripology 101.
Or a HighPower. I have an Argy HP that has ben customized with C&S parts and fitted with Hogue finger-groove grips. Fits like a glove and the trigger is amazing- not something you often hear said about those triggers.Make everything feel like a 1911 despite the backstrap's curve.
I've been practicing with a No.1H 458WinMag for decades.
Hands tight.
Rifle in shoulder.
Relax a bit, but keep hands tight, and bang.
Go with the flow but feet stay planted.
Barrel is about 16.5" and always fun teaching the brave to shoot that blaster.
From 50-55gr of 4198 under a 300gr JFN/JHP to over 70grs in five loadings.
Then a 510gr and they never say yes to another one.
Our old BHP has a heavy but absolutely crisp trigger. Pulled the mag disconnect and it's a bit lighter.
Cut my boy's offhand groups in half, from our M59, the first time he used the Browning.
Hands tight.
Rifle in shoulder.
Relax a bit, but keep hands tight, and bang.
Go with the flow but feet stay planted.
Barrel is about 16.5" and always fun teaching the brave to shoot that blaster.
From 50-55gr of 4198 under a 300gr JFN/JHP to over 70grs in five loadings.
Then a 510gr and they never say yes to another one.
Our old BHP has a heavy but absolutely crisp trigger. Pulled the mag disconnect and it's a bit lighter.
Cut my boy's offhand groups in half, from our M59, the first time he used the Browning.
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Inusuit
Member
Just a couple of points. When teaching single action with a DA revolver, we tell the students to cock with the support hand while maintaining a consistent and unshifting grip with the strong hand.
My wife had a similar complaint about the base of her thumb being battering by a Kahr 9mm. Problem solved when she shifted her strong hand as far up on the grip as possible. You sound like an experienced shooter so this is probably not your problem. As others have noted, a .38 Special in a Model 10 shouldn't be uncomfortable to shoot.
My wife had a similar complaint about the base of her thumb being battering by a Kahr 9mm. Problem solved when she shifted her strong hand as far up on the grip as possible. You sound like an experienced shooter so this is probably not your problem. As others have noted, a .38 Special in a Model 10 shouldn't be uncomfortable to shoot.
OP
Yes, I do that sometimes as well.
"Somewhat" experienced, ie not a novice. I know about getting as hig ha grip as possible. I may have sort-ish fingers which may contribute to the revolve being "canted" a bit, putting that bone in a vulnerable spot. I'll get it sorted out, though. I am keeping this "at hand" as it were, to strengthen my grip:
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Having a set of grips made for yourself by a competent maker made to the precise drawing/zerox of your hand with specific point measurements can make a big difference. There are several makers on this forum, and others available. Yes, might be a little more expensive, but it solves the problem.
I think you're answering your own question again, lol.
A little food for thought, from Massad Ayoob, no less:
GUNS Magazine Fit versus Feel - GUNS Magazine
If you wear medium gloves, or just have shorter fingers, you could investigate the grips sold by Jerry Miculek. They are slimmer and more rounded than typical target or combat grips. In my case, they do not leave much room for my support hand, but they seem to work for him. Usually $80~90 on Ebay, or about $100 from his site with a bigger selection. And I don't see him talking about his awesome kung-fu grip strength much in his videos...
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