Guns and Health Care - A different take

[BarbC]

If the health care bill is set up so that the IRS is in charge of compliance with mandatory health care purchase, and someone gets into trouble because they did not comply, and so becomes a felon, then they are banned from firearm ownership and possession, correct?

[oldman45]

Originally Posted by BarbC

If the health care bill is set up so that the IRS is in charge of compliance with mandatory health care purchase, and someone gets into trouble because they did not comply, and so becomes a felon, then they are banned from firearm ownership and possession, correct?

Any felony conviction prevents firearm ownership or, in many cases, being in the vicinity of a firearm.

Some states allow a felon to own a muzzle loader.

However, in the situation listed, I doubt non compliance with the healthcare law would be a felony. It would carry a large fine but not a felony conviction.

It should be remembered that ANY law is designed to generate money for the government. The healthcare bill is a joke and will cost the taxpayers enough to ruin the economy. Three attorneys have called me tonight to complain about it and questioning how long I thought it would be until the current Adminstration begins an attack on firearms under the healthcare bill.

[DonD]

Originally Posted by oldman45

However, in the situation listed, I doubt non compliance with the healthcare law would be a felony. It would carry a large fine but not a felony conviction.

The healthcare bill is a joke and will cost the taxpayers enough to ruin the economy. Three attorneys have called me tonight to complain about it and questioning how long I thought it would be until the current Adminstration begins an attack on firearms under the healthcare bill.

Two of the three major networks said that at present, the fine for not buying health insurance was a big $95/yr down the road, increasing to something like $725/yr many years ago. That's a pittance considering what most people pay for insurance. That just means many people will continue to use the urgent care and ER facilities for routine care and pass the bills on to others. No change.

Yes, the health care bill is a joke, a bad joke on those who work and pay taxes. Congress' approval rating is 16%, they have ZERO moral authority to force this on us, CERTAINLY not by a simple majority vote by the majority party. Even the CBO says that there are no cost control provisions and there are no restrictions on fraudulent pain and suffering lawsuits. Don

[oldRoger]

Barb;
It is an interesting question. Nancy Pelosi said House would have to pass the bill so we could all find out what’s in it.
The House has passed the Senate Bill but of course the Senate has not yet (and may never) pass the House Bill which would change the Senate Bill.
So I suppose we can be excused if we don’t yet know what’s in the final bill yet to come.
I expect that oldman45 is correct and non-compliance would be a civil penalty at least on first offense.
My understanding was that the IRS would have access to your bank, brokerage, and retirement accounts and would simply withdraw any money you owed.

My serious concern would be that on economic grounds the Feds would simply decide to prohibit any public health hazards. Clearly this undertaking (Obamacare) will be exceedingly expensive and grow very, very, rapidly.
So we will soon find it necessary to improve public health in order to control run away costs.
While smoking and obesity would come first, can dangerous activities be far behind?

Good Grief! This man has GUNPOWDER in his shop!
Roger

[oldman45]

Today, Ranking Member of the House Ways and Means Committee Dave Camp (R-MI) released a letter from the non-partisan Joint Committee on Taxation (JCT) confirming that the failure to comply with the individual mandate to buy health insurance contained in the Pelosi health care bill (H.R. 3962, as amended) could land people in jail. The JCT letter makes clear that Americans who do not maintain “acceptable health insurance coverage” and who choose not to pay the bill’s new individual mandate tax (generally 2.5% of income), are subject to numerous civil and criminal penalties, including criminal fines of up to $250,000 and imprisonment of up to five years.


To me, that is a bit more than $95.

[BarbC]

Good Grief! This man has GUNPOWDER in his shop!

Prescient.

A member of the new association board here, at the first Rules & Regs meeting, was extremely upset that a property owner was a gunsmith and his house could blow up at any minute!



My concern with the way the mandatory insurance purchase program works is that making the IRS the enforcer makes non-compliance a IRS felony.

[Miss Fire]

Barb, that's a pretty big if.
I'm not too sure it's time to worry, just yet.
4 States have already passed legisilation making in unconstitutional, and many more have legislation in the works.
I wouldn't be surprised to see the whole thing end up in front of the Supreme Court with a 10th amendment challenge.
November 2010 isn't that far off and I think Congress is putting on a big show, just before they roll over and play dead.
Stay tuned...

[oldRoger]

Miss fire “from your mouth to God’s ear”, but this is going to be very difficult to undo, mandatory insurance is just one of the terrible features in this mess.
Yes, involving the IRS in enforcement should frighten all of us. With this bill, Congress is getting very close to a wealth tax, which would allow the IRS to take not only income but the investment itself if they say you owe. This is why the Democrats keep throwing around the term “unearned income”. Using this theory retired folks who live from their investments do not earn the interest (and to progressives do not deserve it either). Therefore let us take what we need to feed the growing Federal Monster.

[walter o]

The law suits that the states are filing are a joke . All the feds have to do is threaten to cut fed. money to the states that do not comply to the health care law . It is not to early to worry it may be too late ,how many bills have been overturned by other congresses .nothing can be done until we have a different party controlling congress and the presidential office , In 4 years too many people will willing to accept this health care.what i worry about is the growing involvement government control in our lives. As i have been told many years ago no one will come to your home to collect firearms, you will turn them in to receive mandated government GIVEN options that control your life . .If you don' t comply you wont get the GIVEN options .

The rant is over

[Blov]

As I understand it the IRS is mandated with enforcement but does not have the actual power or money to enforce compliance. This is going to be interesting. As it stands now the states will also have to cough up money for the uninsured, which of course they don't have...what a mess.

[oldRoger]

The bill (Senate) calls for the hiring of 16, 000, that is correct, sixteen thousand IRS Agents. IMO 16,000 Agents can put a world of hurt on a whole lot of people.
This 16,000 is only part of the 150,000 to 180,000 added federal government employees required to implement this monster. Of course this is only an estimate on the part of whatever lobbyist wrote that section. As usual we can expect serious understatement of actual needs.
The plain fact is that no one, nowhere has the least idea how to implement anything this big.

Much more enabling legislation including spending needs to be passed to get this baby off of the ground. Hopefully the GOP can rub the Dem’s noses in the manure each step of the way.

[james56]

If this healthcare bill is so good why did the President,His Admin and congress and the Special interest group who wrote it exempted themselves and there families? This is fact on the News EarlierTonight!!!

[Tractorshaft]

Originally Posted by BarbC

If the health care bill is set up so that the IRS is in charge of compliance with mandatory health care purchase, and someone gets into trouble because they did not comply, and so becomes a felon, then they are banned from firearm ownership and possession, correct?

BarbC,

Thats not the half of it for us gun owners; I was talking with a retired Yale Prof. last week and he says to me;

Hey Jerry, you know that us gun owners are not going to fare well under the new mandantory health plan dont you? I sez, what are you talking about; He then says that since all "Head-On" attempts at 2nd amendment rights have failed that they will be coming at us a different way; The initial health care questionnaire when you sign up asks "Do you have any firearms in your house? Well when you say "Yes" to this one you are automatically put in a "High Risk Group" due to the "Potential" for injury or death to someone. "High Risk" means "High Premiums", like homeowners with Pit Bulls, I guess I am screwed, I have both guns and Pit bulls, does that mean I am uninsurable?

This is something to keep an ear and eye out for in the future when the gory details are passed out with the strawberry scented welfare checks.

[oldRoger]

I doubt you will find this in the bill, it will be an administrative detail, some faceless unelected bureaucrat will put it in, politicians will claim ignorance, but it will become a part of the system.

That is exactly the approach which will be taken and it is a very effective approach.
Barb C said in another post as I remember: “When they control your medical care they control you”.

When the only practical source for medical care for you or your family is the Feds, and you need care for yourself or a loved one, I predict you will check the box as having firearms. It will be a Federal Offense to lie on the form.

When asked to turn your guns in or face financial ruin, or lack of care because you can not afford the “high risk” pool, what will you do?

The highest risk I can think of is AIDS, the behavior which causes the transmittal of this disease is absolutely clear. But the group engaging in this activity is politically favored, Gun Owners are definitely not in favor with the elites. We will end up in the pool not them.

[jughed440]

or....since it has been reported that the health bill calls for tanning spas to be taxed another 10% because they are considered a health risk....that has me wondering if guns/ammo will be overly taxed because some consider them to be a 'health risk'...wouldn't be a bit surprised

[oldRoger]

High taxes are always good!

[Tractorshaft]

Yeah Roger, I will be turning in "All" of my "Guns" , let's see now...Here is a Jennings .22, a chrome .25 and a rusty bolt action Marlin shotgun, yep, yes sir, that's all of them, ya'll cleaned me out! Oh, here are the 12 rounds of ammo I have been stockpiling too, yep, you got em all.....

[oldRoger]

When you arrive at the European situation, everything requires a license. Ammunition, guns, powder, primers, a place to shoot all are licensed. Licenses are necessary to make it safe.
Short of that very high taxes on the same would slow many down. If you make it unpleasant enough some will switch to computer games.

We are just starting to hear all of the bad stuff buried in this turkey.

[oldman45]

It is sad but I bet a good many here, while avid shooters and gun owners, voted for the current administration.

Two of the lawyers I work with almost daily are heavily into gun collecting and light shooting. Both have CCW. Both voted for the current administration. Both now are concerned they did but they are die hard Demorcrats and will not vote rather than vote for anything other than a Democrat.

Over half the voters in the US voted for the current Adminstration. Using that as a base line, and assuming those here to be more conservative than the avg voter, it would still be safe to say over a third of those here voted for the situation we have now.

Getting them to admit to it would be difficult. If you open the hen house door for the fox, do not complain when the chickens are gone. The conservatives warned people what it would be like and now it is here.

[DonD]

I find it hard to comprehend that a thoughtful person could now say that a vote for the Obaminator was a sound decision, one they don't now regret. I think that even under the best of circumstances, it will take at least a decade to recover significantly from the damage this clown has done. I certainly didn't vote for this disaster nor did any of my friends and associates.

Most of what I've read says that Clinton and Greenspan's removal of most of the constraints on the financial sector and Wall Street, created the collapse. That doesn't seem to keep the bloggers from blaming Bush from everything from global warming to social diseases. Don