Police State?

[Jamers99]

Has anyone else noticed the increased heavy hand of gov't in recent years (decades) regarding the use of excessive force against it's own people? I could site dozens of examples in the last 15 years off the top of my head. With a little research I could probably fill a book cover to cover with examples. One of the most memorable for me can be seen in the pick below.



It seems more and more like Officers of the Law are transforming from Peace Officers to a Para-Military type organization. I know some of it is to keep up with the threat but much of it seems over the top to me. I seeing more examples of Law Officers (Local, State, and Federals) expressing a greater disrespect for the people they are supposed to protect and service. Sure one could also find plenty of examples of higher crime rates in certain areas and new types of threats like flash mobs and terrorists as the excuse but I'm mainly referring to how Authorities respond to individual citizens. The TSA is a prime example. We all know that they have been abusing their power and trampling all over our constitutional rights.

I know a couple of local Sheriff Deputies. They are both respectful indivuduals and good family men. On the other hand I see (and read about) countless examples of the opposite. I'm not talking about a bad cop who breaks the very laws he is swore to protect. I'm talking about a change in the way Law Enforcement is used "against" the People rather than "for" the People. Every Gov't agency has it's own tactical SWAT team ready to strom your house as a moments notice. Even the Postal Inspectors have SWAT (I'm not lying, Google it). My fear is the Gov't is slowing turning our best people against us. Here's an absurd hypothetical to illustrate my point. If for whatever reason the Gov't were to pass a constitutional amendment (or via marshall law) declaring all guns owned by citizens to be illegal, and began to aggressively enforce and confiscate guns, how many law enforcement officers would go willingly along citing that they are just doing thier duty? Of course that example is very unlikely. Libertys get taken away slowly so that the public doesn't notice. But Law Officers at all levels still enforce them nonetheless for the obvious reasons. They don't want to lose their jobs. They have families too.

Without rallying any discontent against all the good Law Enforcement can offer, has anyone else noticed a more oppressive Police State type of governing in our country? What are we to do in the future? What country am I leaving behind for my children? Do we have to turn things around politically to fix this? Sorry if I'm coming off a little dramatic. I could site historical examples to enforce my argument but of course some with just pick them apart as not being relevant in todays world. I personally think many are too quick to dismiss this trend as nothing more than a series isolated incidents and not worry because maybe they don't feel like they are being directly affected even though they probably are and just don't fully realize it. What say you Patriotic Americans?

[AirForceShooter]

LEO Ninja's

AFS

[Mack]

Yes I agree.

[357larry]

Unfortunately our society has gotten to the point where most law enforcement agencies would be remiss in their duties if they did not have some sort of swat team in place. Should a situation arise where a swat team is needed, innocent lives would be at stake if you had to rely on calling another agency for assistance. Time is of the essence.

What concerns me are some of the individuals selected for these teams. Many times I would think that AirForceShooter has it right, LEO Ninja's. When I was a LEO many years ago, the agency I worked for started up what they appropriately called a "response team". As the years went by it developed into a full fledged swat team. The scary part of this is that the individuals who are selected for this team now concentrate more on their tactics and swat training than doing Police work, even though these men and women are regular patrol officers when not being utilized as a swat team. They are easy to pick out of a crowd, even when they are off-duty. Burr haircuts, mirrored sunglasses, black BDU's and combat boots. Regular Tackleberry type individuals.

But then we need to remember that the swat teams are not the ones who decide when they are utilized. That decision usually comes from the brass. Face it, most Police Chiefs will sensationalize anything their officers do. This draws attention to their department and makes it look like they are earning their pay. Always helps at budget time.

I agree though, there are a lot of instances where a swat team is used that just makes the agency look silly. I don't know how these guys would have survived if they would have worked with me when I used to conduct raids and kick in doors with our narc's. I never felt the need for half of the equipment that these guys think are mandatory now.

[mkk41]

State Police , police state.

[jtpur]

Jammers is correct in many things he says. I was in Miami when this particular incident happened. It was ugly all around. I for one believed the kid should have been returned to his father, even though he lived in Cuba which was and still is a Communist country,. Even commies love their kids. But this was typical of the Janet Reno/Bill Clinton administration of attack now and worry about it later. Remember the fiasco at WACO.....firebombing citizens in the name of Law Enforcement. I had no problem with the time of the Elian raid but the weapons, uniforms etc were way over the top. Unfortunately, had they showed up at 1pm a riot would have likely been played out. The whole situation was ugly.

I for one do not like the Urban warefare mentality of todays cops. The helmets, the tactical clothing. We went on raids with uniformed cops in traditional uniforms. We did not look like an Infantry platoon assaulting a machine gun position. There is a time for those tactics, dont get me wrong but your average "domestic" where a family member usually drunk holds the spouse does not require an assault force armed with armored vehicles, machine guns and even grenades. sorry to you modern warriors out there but you're over the top with this assault mentality.

[raven818]

Has anyone noticed how well armed the thugs are now, compared to 15 years ago? Does it matter that the thugs now carry fully automatic ( manufactured non-auto ). Has anyone noticed the stories about armor piercing ammo? Has anyone noticed the amount of officers being killed recently answering domestic calls?

Anybody notice the police officer in the news today who was shot in the neck while answering a domestic call?

This is no longer the days of officers answering calls, or stopping cars and feeling confident they will go home after their shifts!!

[Jamers99]

Raven, I want every officer to come home to their family at the end of each and every shift. They should be protected as best possible. But risk comes with the job. Some of the over-the-top tactics used by Law Enforcements (Local, State, and FEDERAL) smacks of a Police State.

For instance, take a look at that 30 round banana clip that SWAT guy has on his gun during the Eilean raid. Is that really necessary? He's probably got 2 spare mags in his para-military assault vest. Who's he planning to empty 30 rounds into anyway? And what are the goggles for? In case someone spits at him? I know the SWAT guy would say it's all done to intimidate the Perps but that is my point. They are very intimidating and that seems to be the status quo these days. I say you respond based on the circumstances and not go into every situation likes it WWIII.

[The Big D]

Frankly, I am more than a bit worried about the non-LEO citizens who are acting out their ninja fantasies.

That said, I am NOT in favor of the ever increasing para-militarization of LE organizations.

LEO's do NOT routinely need to wear BDU's. Street officers should be wearing the same uniforms as do HQ personnel. (not sure of my phrasing here...what I am trying to say is they should be wearing what they wore when they graduated from their academy)

Striped trousers, metal badges (not sewn on patches), and uniform shirts WITHOUT a vest worn over that shirt should be the "uniform of the day."

Don't be mistaken, I am a proponent of ballistic vests; but they should be worn inside the uniform shirt not outside ala Reno 911.

Be safe.

[EdnAZ]

Originally Posted by Jamers99

Has anyone else noticed the increased heavy hand of gov't in recent years (decades) regarding the use of excessive force against it's own people? One of the most memorable for me can be seen in the pick below.

Well, I'd say that photo is a horrible example to support your argument. The guys with the MP-5's are members of BORTAC, the Border Patrol Tactical Team, executing a lawful custody order on the little boy, Elian Gonzalez.

While I'm no fan of the Clinton Justice Department, that whole scenario was a great example of how susceptible to political influence local law enforcement can be.

That entire "raid" would have been completely unnecessary if the "extended family" of Elian Gonzalez had respect for our legal process.

By the way the only people in that picture that are United State's Citizens are the guys with the MP-5.

[EdnAZ]

Here is the "aftermath" of that "memorable" picture of yours.

[hatt]

Originally Posted by raven818

This is no longer the days of officers answering calls, or stopping cars and feeling confident they will go home after their shifts!!

The stats show fewer police are murdered these days than 10-20-30-40 years ago. What days are you talking about?

[sirgknight]

And then there's the situation where I see an off-duty correctional officer walking into a local supermarket wearing shorts and polo short with an exposed personal sidearm and state corrections badge on his belt for the entire world to see. This whole senario was screaming "wanna-be". I am a retired correctional officer and I have a carry permit, and I certainly believe that the Second Amendment pertains to individuals, but this was over-the-top; not only over-the-top but totally against Departmental Policy. He was empowered to carry that firearm but he was not empowered to wear that badge except for it to be displayed on his uniform in the performance of his duties. I don't think he really had a clue about the picture that he was painting or the possible consequences of his actions. I was totally dumbfounded.....

[ladder13]

Originally Posted by The Big D

Frankly, I am more than a bit worried about the non-LEO citizens who are acting out their ninja fantasies.

Especially the keyboard type.

[ladder13]

Originally Posted by raven818

Has anyone noticed how well armed the thugs are now, compared to 15 years ago? Does it matter that the thugs now carry fully automatic ( manufactured non-auto ). Has anyone noticed the stories about armor piercing ammo? Has anyone noticed the amount of officers being killed recently answering domestic calls?

Anybody notice the police officer in the news today who was shot in the neck while answering a domestic call?

This is no longer the days of officers answering calls, or stopping cars and feeling confident they will go home after their shifts!!

The number of LEO deaths in car crashes has increased dramatically, all other means have dropped. Could be a number of things limiting LEO deaths, better body armour, better training, more backup units today, etc etc



http://www.policemag.com/Channel/Veh...rly-1980s.aspx

http://www.policeone.com/suspect-pur...w-enforcement/

[enjr4444]

To reply to the original post . . .

YES!

[raven818]

No point in butting my head against a brick wall (s).

[G.T. Smith]

I don't really see a "police state", but I do see a society that is becoming more and more entitled and spoiled. I'm thinking that it won't be long before flash mobs evolve into the type of insanity that has taken place in Libya and Egypt and other places where the citizenry don't agree with the government and use social networking to organize the effort to overthrow their leaders. I think that, should it happen here, we'll be darn glad to see the cops arrive to stop it. I hear folks complaining about our government officials constantly. I wonder how long the people in Libya heard people complaining about their government officials before they became the giant flash mob that they became? We need our cops and our cops need us. They are dealing with an ever increasing level of insanity and must respond accordingly.
This is just my own personal opinion, and I will admit that I ain't as smart as most, but I am not naive.
I don' think you are seeing a police state emerging, only a necessary response to what is to come.
Pray for America,
Gordon

[hatt]

Originally Posted by G.T. Smith

I don't really see a "police state", but I do see a society that is becoming more and more entitled and spoiled. I'm thinking that it won't be long before flash mobs evolve into the type of insanity that has taken place in Libya and Egypt and other places where the citizenry don't agree with the government and use social networking to organize the effort to overthrow their leaders. I think that, should it happen here, we'll be darn glad to see the cops arrive to stop it. I hear folks complaining about our government officials constantly. I wonder how long the people in Libya heard people complaining about their government officials before they became the giant flash mob that they became? We need our cops and our cops need us. They are dealing with an ever increasing level of insanity and must respond accordingly.
This is just my own personal opinion, and I will admit that I ain't as smart as most, but I am not naive.
I don' think you are seeing a police state emerging, only a necessary response to what is to come.
Pray for America,
Gordon

What you're describing sounds exactly like a police state. The police existing to squash uprisings from the masses. The police existing to protect government FROM the people.

[TACC1]

The LEO ninja Seems to be the leading interface, but I think that may be because news reporting loves to use theit new techno-toys to
get a story publicized. My gut feeling is more that the state ,local, federal governments have increasingly less respect for their
constituents. The more ignorant the public, the less respect for the persons and their rights. It'll only get worse without a return of
strong family and community values. I could just cry... TACC1

[Engine 21]

I can only hope this type of response is the post child of how not to respond. I have been associated with so called Swat Teams on multiple occasions - some times that type of response is called for - most times it's over reaction. On one occasion we got called out for a "barricaded gunman" at an apartment complex. It took an hour + to set up. The Operations Commander - who looked like a ninja ran across the grass area for 500 feet - zig-zaging with a gas mask banging on his leg - did a forward roll when he got to the building - stood up and tried to open the exterior door to access stairs to the second floor of the apartment building - it was locked. He disappeared around the corner and no one saw him for quite a while. Mean time - the on duty Police Lieutenant interviewed the girl who had been in the apartment "conducting business". The guy wouldn't pay her. She grabbed his wallet and he grabbed a revolver - no shots fired, he just brandished the revolver to get his wallet back. Lieutenant takes the wallet from the girl. We obtain the phone number of the "barricaed gunman" - and call him. He's asleep - answers the phone - we tell him to come out. The Police Lieutenant looks around and sez "JEEZ" walks up the apartment - the perp is on his knees outside the apartment. Regular on duty P.O.'s take him into custody, for brandishing a firearm, pat him down and and put his wallet back in his pocket, put him in a scout car and leave. Meantime, Barney Fife is in the bushes on the side of the building with his band of ninjas. I think they were embarrased to come out. The citizens are standing on the sidewalk on the other side of the street in robes drinking coffee and pointing. Then a helpful citizen points out to me the Swat trucks back doors are open and people are looking in and it looks like the gun rack is unlocked. I secured the gun rack, closed the doors, took the keys out of the ignition and gave them to Barney. I also told the Chief I just cannot be associated with Barney and his band of merry men so please do not order me out to these circuses because, well it's embarrasing to the average cop on the street and worse it's unsafe not to mention the liability. This guy shouldn't have a BB gun leave alone an MP-5. Within a month Barney was gone and his band of merry men were reevaluated and proper well trained people were put in place.And the policy for call out of the SWAT team was revised. I laugh now - but I didn't then. You just can't make this stuff up.

[hs125]

In my small college town of 30k citizens, our PD traded in a Winnebago (command center) for a UAV (Urban attack vehicle) which is "deployed" for the most silly situations.

Too, there was "use or lose" money (our money) from DHS which is used for toys, rather than honest police work. Our PD used to work closely with the community and had it's fingers on the pulse of town. Now they sit in their cruisers with the windows rolled up on their cell phones. The attitude is much more punitive and accusatory.

I'm not sure any of today's techno toy LEO's could catch a cold!

[David LaPell]

I can tell you that it is a new thing over the last few years that alot of LE agencies are going to. The old common sense police work where they try to talk to people is getting replaced by a military style "Do it now!" attitude. I think that as these new guys replace the older guys on the job, more of this will continue. The other thing is that states, like here in NY is ditching the old pension systems. It used to be for cops 20 years and out and us CO's 25 and out with a 50% pension. Now it is 30 and out and you get 40% which you can't collect until you're 62. If the governor gets his way, the new pension will be you won't retire until you are 62 and you will get 30%. I expect a high turnover and burnout rate as cops get fed up and quit not to mention a lower quality of employees.

[bk43]

Originally Posted by raven818

...and feeling confident they will go home after their shifts!!

Do you mean like Columbine where people bled to death inside while LEO's waited outside to be sure they were not injured? Or attacking a child while in full combat gear with an auto like in this picture? Sorry, this train has come off the tracks and we're headed toward an us vs them that is not sustainable in a civilized society. It's going to get a lot worse unless changes are made.

Sadly, we will probably go through several years of playing the blame game and everybody over reacting before solutions are found. And during that time people are going to die needlessly, LEO's and private citizens alike.

Bob

[brucev]

My default is to support LE. The LE and LEO I know in my local area are not at all the wanabe mil-type operators so regularly featured in articles, reports of over the top foul-ups such as the incident mentioned in the op, etc. In general, I'm for LEO doing their job with the least amount of drama necessary. I will say I have absolutely no use at all for officers running around in combat gear, ie., BDU's, boots helmets, etc. It is simply out of place. If they want to play army, let them join the U.S. military. If they are retired military and can't leave that life behind, they need to get psychiatric help. If and when a officer speaks to me, he'd best not be shouting "order." He'll get a much better and more cooperative response if he speaks to me in a reasonable voice. I don't blame anyone for reacting negatively if a officer begins the interaction at a high level... i.e., shouting, demanding, challenging. If LEO want to be supported by the general public, they must take seriously the first part of an old motto that once was seen on the doors of cruisers... "To protect and serve."

[handejector]

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