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Old 11-16-2011, 08:25 PM
anotherjohndoe anotherjohndoe is offline
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Default U.S. House Passes NRA-backed National Right-to-Carry Reciprocity Legislation

NRA-ILA :: U.S. House Passes NRA-backed National Right-to-Carry Reciprocity Legislation


Wednesday, November 16, 2011

The U.S. House of Representatives has passed an important self-defense measure that would enable millions of Right-to-Carry permit holders across the country to carry concealed firearms while traveling outside their home states. H.R. 822, the National Right-to-Carry Reciprocity Act, passed by a majority bipartisan vote of 272 to 154. All amendments aimed to weaken or damage the integrity of this bill were defeated.

“NRA has made the National Right-to-Carry Reciprocity Act a priority because it enhances the fundamental right to self-defense guaranteed to all law-abiding people,” said Chris W. Cox, executive director of NRA’s Institute for Legislative Action. “People are not immune from crime when they cross state lines. That is why it is vital for them to be able to defend themselves and their loved ones should the need arise.”

H.R. 822, introduced in the U.S. House by Representatives Cliff Stearns (R-Fla.) and Heath Shuler (D-N.C.), allows any person with a valid state-issued concealed firearm permit to carry a concealed firearm in any state that issues concealed firearm permits, or that does not prohibit the carrying of concealed firearms for lawful purposes.

This bill does not affect existing state laws. State laws governing where concealed firearms may be carried would apply within each state’s borders. H.R. 822 does not create a federal licensing system or impose federal standards on state permits; rather, it requires the states to recognize each others' carry permits, just as they recognize drivers' licenses and carry permits held by armored car guards.

As of today, 49 states have laws in place that permit their citizens to carry a concealed firearm in some form. Only Illinois and the District of Columbia deny its residents the right to carry concealed firearms outside their homes or businesses for self-defense.

“We are grateful for the support of Speaker Boehner, Majority Leader Cantor, Majority Whip McCarthy, Judiciary Chairman Smith and primary sponsors Congressmen Stearns and Shuler for their steadfast support of H.R. 822. Thanks to the persistence of millions of American gun owners and NRA members, Congress has moved one step closer to improving crucial self-defense laws in this country,” concluded Cox.



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Established in 1871, the National Rifle Association is America's oldest civil rights and sportsmen's group. Four million members strong, NRA continues its mission to uphold Second Amendment rights and to advocate enforcement of existing laws against violent offenders to reduce crime. The Association remains the nation's leader in firearm education and training for law-abiding gun owners, law enforcement and the military.
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Old 11-16-2011, 09:47 PM
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I haven't read the bill but I did see a report that it allowed a state resident with a CCW to carry in other states. It did not seem to say anything about a person with an out of state CCW to have the same rights.
That's gonna still be a problem for us in the bad states like NJ, NY, MD etc.

Let's see if it gets thru the Senate and then I'll celebrate
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Old 11-16-2011, 10:00 PM
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We need to be careful with this legislation. The Feds are usurping what is basically a states right issue here. While most of on this forum will find this particular law to be a benefit to us it opens the door to forcing states to accept other types of licensing we may not find quite so appealing. In short, we all need to understand what the Feds are really jamming down our throats. It has nothing to do with guns at all.
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Old 11-16-2011, 10:47 PM
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I'm not too concerned about the licensing issue here; it's basically the same thing as drivers' licences.

Any chance of this bill surviving the senate?
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Old 11-16-2011, 11:28 PM
auburn2 auburn2 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowbandit View Post
We need to be careful with this legislation.
If you notice it only applies when "traveling" to/in a state that is not one's home state. That makes it interstate commerce and in the Fed's power to regulate.

It is the same reason you can drive from Virginia to Maine with an "assault weapon" whule going through NJ and NY where they would be illegal without being in violation of the law.
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Old 11-17-2011, 06:49 AM
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I don't think this is a "state's rights" thing. The first 10 Amendments define us as a republic, the rest define us as a democracy. The 2nd Amendment should have no geographical boundaries. The fact that each state has its own form of rules and regulations for a right is a violation of 2A, in the purest sense. HR 822 by its existence is a violation of 2A, IMHO.

That said, I am of two minds on this. I guess 822 is a good thing, as long as it stays the way it is, no national registry of licensees / permitees, no national gun registry, stuff like that. BUT, history shows giving the federal government a toe-hold is usually the beginning of making things better for the citizenry, even if there is no need for betterment.
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Old 11-17-2011, 09:37 AM
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Can not see that this has any chance given a democrat controlled senate and the current resident of the white house.

It is difficult to see how Congress can legitimately "protect" non-commerce activity, i.e., concealed carry, under the guise of the IC Clause as cc has nothing to do with any commercial activity, either interstate or intrastate. For my part, I do not support such tenuous Constitutionally unsupported activity by Congress. It is as illegitimate as the efforts of those who would manipulate the Constitution to extend their preferred agendas.
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Old 11-17-2011, 11:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PDL View Post
I haven't read the bill but I did see a report that it allowed a state resident with a CCW to carry in other states. It did not seem to say anything about a person with an out of state CCW to have the same rights.
That's gonna still be a problem for us in the bad states like NJ, NY, MD etc.

Let's see if it gets thru the Senate and then I'll celebrate
From what I heard on Gunforhire Radio, this does absolutely nothing for those of us behind the 2'nd Amendment Iron Curtain. NJ will still be a "May Issue" state with the only permits issued to the politically connected. I would be more interested in what the NJ2AF's lawsuit against the People's Republic brings about.
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Old 11-17-2011, 11:42 AM
walnutred walnutred is offline
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Originally Posted by thndrchiken View Post
From what I heard on Gunforhire Radio, this does absolutely nothing for those of us behind the 2'nd Amendment Iron Curtain. NJ will still be a "May Issue" state with the only permits issued to the politically connected. I would be more interested in what the NJ2AF's lawsuit against the People's Republic brings about.
Where this bill could help you is give leverage when out of Staters start legally carrying in your State while residents cannot. If your legislature starts getting swamped with “Why can someone from Ohio do something that in NJ that a NJ resident cannot” type of questions. Or people get fed up with the absurdity of the existing laws and start changing legislators.
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Old 11-17-2011, 01:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Martya View Post
I don't think this is a "state's rights" thing. The first 10 Amendments define us as a republic, the rest define us as a democracy. The 2nd Amendment should have no geographical boundaries. The fact that each state has its own form of rules and regulations for a right is a violation of 2A, in the purest sense. HR 822 by its existence is a violation of 2A, IMHO.

That said, I am of two minds on this. I guess 822 is a good thing, as long as it stays the way it is, no national registry of licensees / permitees, no national gun registry, stuff like that. BUT, history shows giving the federal government a toe-hold is usually the beginning of making things better for the citizenry, even if there is no need for betterment.
You have an interesting take on this particular interpertation of our Constitution. Im not sure I agree and yet Im not sure I disagree. My read of the Bill of Rights and especially of the Second is that the Founders wanted to clarify some things they did not spell out. I read the Second's clause .....a well regulated militia." to specifically apply to mean the people since the people formed the militia and the militia came under control of the States......the founders talk about the militia and the armed forces in the Federalist Pappers and it is my take that they meant for us citizens to be armed to protect us from a Government run rampant and needing to be reigned in by force if necessary by an armed groups of citizens. They specifically conveyed upon the "people" the right to keep and bear arms....not the Militia to keep and bear arms. The SCOTUS found this princible in its very narrow 5-4 split.... One short liberal member on the court will change everything. we can only hope this ruling lasts as long as the 5-4 split in Roe v Wade......I am sure that as opponents of Roe have tried since 1973 to overturn that case so will opponets of McDonald v Chicago and opponents of the rulling in the Heller case.
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Old 11-17-2011, 01:33 PM
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If the good people of New York or Illinois wish to inflict their restrictive laws on themselves, that is their business. As long as the courts continue to find that their laws passed by their legislatures aren't in violation of their own state constitutions or the federal constitution, so be it. My personal opinion of the law may be it is stupid, or unjust, or whatever.
But the bottom line is that I am not in a position to change another state's law. Nor am I supposed to be able to impose the laws of my state on another. The top speed limit on the highway in Oregon is 60 mph. The top speed limit on the highway in Colorado is 75 mph. I shouldn't be allowed to drive 75 mph in Oregon just because I can in Colorado.
I am firmly opposed to the feds overriding the rights of the states to make their own laws. Unless the Supremes find that CCW is a right guaranteed under the federal constitution, it should be hands off.
The good people of New York, Illinois, and California are free to change their law whenever they wish.
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Old 11-18-2011, 10:57 AM
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I am a firm believer in state's rights. However, if one wants to ignore the 10th Amendment, then I guess one would ignore the manipulation of the 2nd Amendment by the states, or maybe the even the 4th.

Suppose NJ suddenly instituted a law that the local chief of police's opinion was enough to allow forced armed entry into a home? This of course would unquestionably be unconstitutional. The 4th Amendment says so, and the geographic boundaries of NJ should not be the determinant factor of allowing this violation of the constitution.

All I am saying is the moment one legislates a right it becomes a privilege, subject to any and all rules, restrictions. changes, adjustments, discriminations, etc., just like driving in each state.

The 2nd Amendment allows me, one of "...the people...", to bear arms. Then we have states infringing on that right in varying degrees up to and including denying that right, creating a privilege; and THEN we have the federal government trying to pass a law - 822 - giving me the privilege of bearing arms is states that have not allowed me to exercise a right I already had in the first place, creating another privilege to exercise a privilege that was a right and should never been there in the first place.

This is why I am of two minds on this. We have let the states infringe so much for so long, it is unlikely in my lifetime I would see that removed, so a thin, blanketing federal law attempting to recover from those infringements gets a reserved welcome from me.




IANAL; these assembled and ordered electrons are only my opinion.
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Old 11-18-2011, 02:17 PM
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I do not support this law, because it only
pertains to"concealed firearms".

Thanks

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Old 11-24-2011, 03:47 AM
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Quote:
if one wants to ignore the 10th Amendment
What 10th amendment? There's a 10th amendment and nobody told me? Oh yeah, now I remember. That's the one the Supreme court says everyone can ignore because the Interstate Commerce Clause supercedes it. So, I rekon an ignored amendment is really a right that has been abrogated. Wonder which one will be next?
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Old 11-24-2011, 07:35 AM
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Senate won't pass it. Just ask Harry.
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Old 12-02-2011, 06:04 PM
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I'm not too concerned about the licensing issue here; it's basically the same thing as drivers' licences.
Or marriage licenses, which is closer to the point. Are you ready to honor ALL the marriage licenses from California and MA, just for example?

I am not. This bill is anti-states rights, and it's using the 2nd ammendment as a means to pass it by conservatives who would otherwise think twice.

While the right to carry needs to be enforced in all states, doing it based upon permits, which is licensing, is not the correct path. The correct path is legislation in favor of making states comply with the constitution.

Forcing states to accept licenses from other states is a slippery slope, that could include everything from Marriage to Marijuana.
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Old 12-02-2011, 07:36 PM
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Is Charlie Rangel bound and lock in a broom closet?
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Old 12-02-2011, 08:41 PM
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All you guys should feel lucky. It is impossible to get or renew a CCW license in CA unless you are a LEO. There was a such thing in prior years, citizens could openly carry a non-loaded firearm (pistol) with the loaded magazines in a ammo belt but not touching the weapon. We have a gov. now that made a law banning that starting 01/12. This sort of political B.S. is gong to make the state a very dangerous place to live. The politicains in Sacremento are making law abiding citizens criminals by making it a felony to carry a registered firearm w/o a permit while the criminals its a misdenenor to possess a loaded stolen firearm on their person.
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Old 12-03-2011, 01:52 AM
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Did some of you folks forget that most of the Federal Courts have upheld the ObamaCare requirement that forces everyone to have health insurance, under the Commerce Clause??? I think it is reasonable that you be allowed to carry concealed in every state if you can in your state, just like a drivers license. The real problem is doing so in conformance with the different state laws. They are not posted like speed limits and stop signs, so how does one know that you are not allowed to carry concealed in, say, a hotel lobby??
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Old 12-03-2011, 03:00 AM
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so how does one know that you are not allowed to carry concealed in, say, a hotel lobby??
Actually they are posted on the entry ways of most public buildings. I know they are posted around here on all super markets, resurants etc if you are not supposed to carry a concealed firearm. You should look more closely at the stickers posted on the front entry ways if you are concealing. If you are caught with a concealed weapon in a buisness that has it posted you may have your ccw suspended.Pisses you off don't it. If everyone was able to carry, not just concealed, but on their hip there would be ALOT less criminal behavior. The morons that make these laws don't relize this or are to ignorant to see it. Libererals mostly but not entirely, sad to say.
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Old 12-03-2011, 09:57 AM
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Actually they are posted on the entry ways of most public buildings. I know they are posted around here on all super markets, resurants etc if you are not supposed to carry a concealed firearm. You should look more closely at the stickers posted on the front entry ways if you are concealing. If you are caught with a concealed weapon in a buisness that has it posted you may have your ccw suspended.Pisses you off don't it. If everyone was able to carry, not just concealed, but on their hip there would be ALOT less criminal behavior. The morons that make these laws don't relize this or are to ignorant to see it. Libererals mostly but not entirely, sad to say.
I think Nightowl meant that what meets the requirements for posting in one state, may not be enforceable in another. In Texas, for instance, a business owner can post a sign with letters 5 feet tall that says, 'NO CONCEALED HANDGUNS! EVEN WITH A LICENSE!' and it would not legally prohibit license owners from entering. We, thankfully, have very specific posting requirements. I have no idea what is sufficient in, say, Missouri (Picture of a gun with a line through it? 3"X5" notecard that says 'No Weapons'?

I can carry into a liquor store in Texas, can I do that in Colorado? I don't know. What about banks, or police stations, or...? I know my own state laws regarding these, but not other states.

I'm not actually looking for answers to these questions, I'm just pointing out that the state concealed carry laws are all very different in respect to specific requirements.
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Old 12-03-2011, 01:51 PM
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When applying for a ccw, it tells you these things. For instance, you cannot carry in a federal building, police station, post office, bank etc. those are federaly mandated. If a store owner has a sign posted you may not carry a concealed weapon into their store that is backed by the law. A store owner has to apply for that "sticker". They can't just put it up like a home owner posting a sign in front of their house, on the street "no parking''. That is agaist the law as well. All of this is in the application for the CCW. You really have to read things befor eyou sign on the dotted line, not sign and read later.
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Old 12-03-2011, 02:47 PM
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That's just what I'm getting at. All the states have different rules. Federal property and post offices are off limits everywhere, but I can assure you, in Texas, I can carry into a bank, unless it's properly posted (most are not), and police stations, unless they also contain a court, and many other places that may not be allowed in other states. I promise you, I have read the laws that govern concealed carry of a handgun in the state I live in, and it's probably very different than yours.
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Old 12-03-2011, 03:29 PM
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OFT II OFT II is online now
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U.S. House Passes NRA-backed National Right-to-Carry Reciprocity Legislation U.S. House Passes NRA-backed National Right-to-Carry Reciprocity Legislation U.S. House Passes NRA-backed National Right-to-Carry Reciprocity Legislation U.S. House Passes NRA-backed National Right-to-Carry Reciprocity Legislation U.S. House Passes NRA-backed National Right-to-Carry Reciprocity Legislation  
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And Texas is likely one of the few states that allows licensed concealed carry inside the state capitol building.
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Old 12-03-2011, 03:39 PM
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U.S. House Passes NRA-backed National Right-to-Carry Reciprocity Legislation  
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That's right, there's even a special entrance for it, now!
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Old 12-03-2011, 04:02 PM
vector16 vector16 is offline
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U.S. House Passes NRA-backed National Right-to-Carry Reciprocity Legislation U.S. House Passes NRA-backed National Right-to-Carry Reciprocity Legislation U.S. House Passes NRA-backed National Right-to-Carry Reciprocity Legislation U.S. House Passes NRA-backed National Right-to-Carry Reciprocity Legislation U.S. House Passes NRA-backed National Right-to-Carry Reciprocity Legislation  
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I gotta move to TX and Get out of CA. CA has way to many BS laws and currupt politicians that want to reward to criminals and punish the law abiding. Anyone have a room for rent?
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Old 12-08-2011, 11:45 AM
MikeChandler MikeChandler is offline
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U.S. House Passes NRA-backed National Right-to-Carry Reciprocity Legislation U.S. House Passes NRA-backed National Right-to-Carry Reciprocity Legislation U.S. House Passes NRA-backed National Right-to-Carry Reciprocity Legislation U.S. House Passes NRA-backed National Right-to-Carry Reciprocity Legislation U.S. House Passes NRA-backed National Right-to-Carry Reciprocity Legislation  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vector16 View Post
I gotta move to TX and Get out of CA. CA has way to many BS laws and currupt politicians that want to reward to criminals and punish the law abiding. Anyone have a room for rent?
California is rapidly becoming a police-state. They will cram down your throat political-correctness over the most extreme sexually related issues (and drugs too), but then go out of their way to not only ignore but to undermine your constitutional right to bear arms. They are grooming their population to be a bunch of sedated, socialist, pacifist, perverts.

We should just let them join the EU; removing that voting demographic alone would improve US politics, and thereby everything else, regardless of the GDP lost.

Were I you, I would move while they still allow it.
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