Huge Second Amendment Win in D.C. - Updated 7/29/14

[Dennis The B]

Usually, these cases are handed down during the week, but it looks like the U.S. District judge decided to work O.T. This ruling makes carry outside the home in D.C. constitutional. It also looks as though D.C. will have to recognize concealed carry permits from outside.

Seems like the good guys won another round.

Victory in Palmer v. D.C. | Reality-Based Litigation

It's just been reported that the presiding judge has granted a 90-day stay of his order, pending an appeal by D.C.'s lawyers.

Federal judge grants 90-day stay in D.C. gun case - Washington Times

[robertrwalsh]

This is a HUGE big deal. Looks like they actually found a judge in D C who has at one time read the constitution and isn't suffering from cranial rectosis.

[CoMF]

Beat me to it. This is very good news, indeed, and sets a very welcome precedent. Here's hoping that the remaining anti-carry enclaves follow suit one by one.

[Hodgin]

Good News!

Hooray.jpg

[hoc9sw]

A very correct interpretation, as I see it.

[ladder13]

This is a major victory in the never ending battle with the anti's. Great news for the people of DC, and the USA.
Let's see if there's any coverage on the MSM.

[Hillbilly77]

One more for the Good Guys.

[Biginge]

All is not lost. A little common Constitutional sense can cover a lot of ground.

[G-Mac]

Since this is a ruling from a Federal Judge, would it also apply to New York City?

[nawilson]

That is a great victory for the Republic and for the liberty of men everywhere.

[HeyJoe]

Originally Posted by G-Mac

Since this is a ruling from a Federal Judge, would it also apply to New York City?

no its a different federal judicial district

[ladder13]

Originally Posted by G-Mac

Since this is a ruling from a Federal Judge, would it also apply to New York City?

I believe it's only applicable to that Circuit, or will be when the full Circuit court chimes in when DC appeals.

HeyJoe beat me to it.

[ladder13]

Originally Posted by G-Mac

Since this is a ruling from a Federal Judge, would it also apply to New York City?

Did you notice the good judge is out of The 'Cuse. I wonder if he wears an orange robe.

[G-Mac]

Originally Posted by ladder13

Did you notice the good judge is out of The 'Cuse. I wonder if he wears an orange robe.

Yes, I did notice that as soon as I read the article. I've heard the name many times.

[johngalt]

I saw an article that states that the judge wrote that DC is prohibited from enforcing the ban unless/until they pass a concealed carry law.

Does this mean DC is now Constitutional carry?

Wonder if they will learn from the people of Illinois, who traded their shiny jewel that was given to them by the 7th Circuit for a dirty rock.

[federali]

The question arises that people from outside of DC should theoretically have the same constitutional rights as DC residents when in DC. This could eventually make concealed carry constitutional in other parts of the country.

The downside is that if another federal circuit issues a contradictory opinion on essentially the same set of circumstances, the matter must go to the Supreme Court.

There is also the matter of Washington DC filing an appeal but I'm not sure how that would work in DC.

[Dennis The B]

Originally Posted by Collects

Did you notice that the injunction, by its own terms, only applies to those who have actual knowledge of the injunction? That is a pretty big loophole!

Since I do not trust DC to actually follow the Constitution based upon its history, I now expect anti-gun DC to refuse to inform any of its police, prosecutors, judges, etc. of this injunction, and to do their best to ensure that nobody finds out on his/her own about the injection, so that nobody subject to the injunction has any actual knowledge of the fact of the injunction - and therefore is not bound by the injunction.

Federal judges have little patience for those who attempt to ignore their orders. The McDonald case, when the writ was issued, gave very little time for the state to act.

I don't think I'd want to be the official who tried to hide the weeny here. And, today isn't like it was fifty years ago. The internet does move the word rather quickly.

[jackvs1]

The clowns in DC have voiced their intention to appeal which will stay the current law. The decision yesterday took three years, lets see how long the appeal takes. Here is the link to their intentions.

D.C. attorney general plans to seek stay of ruling overturning District?s handgun ban - The Washington Post

[ladder13]

"The D.C. attorney general’s office said Sunday that it will seek a stay of a judge’s ruling that overturned the District’s principal gun control law, in order to keep guns off the streets ........"

HAH, the guns are already on the streets.

[Muss Muggins]

Originally Posted by G-Mac

Since this is a ruling from a Federal Judge, would it also apply to New York City?

Different Circuits. Certainly the 2nd Circuit could cite it, but Supreme Court would have to resolve a Circuit split.

[M29since14]

Originally Posted by ladder13

...HAH, the guns are already on the streets.

Precisely. Another one of those "uncomfortable truths" that these dull-witted types cannot bring themselves to suffer - even though it is literally infront of their noses. Elsewise, the special people would have no need to travel the District attended by armed guards and in the comfort of their armored limousines (other than to demonstrate their over-inflated sense of self-importance ).

[Pasifikawv]

For now, DC residents with registered handguns can carry said handguns in public. (There are very few lawful owners of registered handguns in DC. The District's registration scheme is by design expensive, time-consuming, and burdensome to discourage DC residents from registering a handgun). Non-residents who can lawfully possess firearms under federal law can carry a handgun in public in DC.

However, DC will seek a stay and certainly appeal the decision. If/when a stay is issued, DC will once again enforce it's carry ban. It is fully expected that a stay will be granted to allow time for DC to enact a city code for the carry of firearms and time to develop an appeal to the decision.

If history is any teacher, the DC council will make any future carry code as restrictive as possible and the application process as burdensome as possible.

DC will absolutely appeal the decision. If reversed on appeal, DC will again enforce its gun carry ban. Of course that appeal, if unfavorable to the plaintiffs (gun owners), Guru/SAF/Palmer will appeal the appeal. However, I think the current decision is sound and any appeals by DC will hopefully be unsuccessful.

I fully expect a stay to be issued in the very near future and the carrying of firearms for defense in DC will again be curbed as further litigation occurs and/or as DC hammers out a highly-restrictive carry code. It will only be a short period of time that the current, permissible carry will be in effect. I project that within days (if not hours), a stay will be granted.

It will also be interesting to see how the federal gov't and our Congress Critters exercise their purse string powers over the federal enclave of DC as the city council addresses the fall out of the court's decision. Congress may try to restrict DC funding if/when the gun-grabbing DC Council attempts to adopt a highly-restrictive carry code.

The judge's decision did state that the future DC carry code must be consistent with the Constitutional right to keep and bear arms, but federal courts are still divided as to what type of carry licensing scheme is Constitutional. Some courts have upheld restrictive "may issue" permitting schemes that give bureaucrats discretion to deny permits to lawful gun owners for any reason. Such restrictive permitting schemes fail to recognize lawful self defense as cause for a permit. Other courts have indicated that such restrictive "may-issue" laws are inconsistent with Constitutional protections.

In short, there will be some interesting developments and challenges resulting from the fallout of the Palmer ruling. While this is a huge win in the battle for rights, the overall contest drags on....

[ladder13]

DC police told to stand down....for now.

NRA-ILA | D.C. police won?t enforce handgun ban; stay of ruling overturning law will be sought

[Joe F]

Originally Posted by Pasifikawv

For now, DC residents with registered handguns can carry said handguns in public. (There are very few lawful owners of registered handguns in DC. The District's registration scheme is by design expensive, time-consuming, and burdensome to discourage DC residents from registering a handgun).

As a DC resident, I have to say that registering a gun in the District is not that hard or particularly expensive. It costs $13 to register a gun plus a one time $35 fee to get fingerprinted. Transfer fees, on the other hand are very expensive. There's only one FFL and he charges $125. The only real PITA is that you have to bring the gun downtown to MPD register it (long guns too).

[GregoryJ]

Originally Posted by Joe F

As a DC resident, I have to say that registering a gun in the District is not that hard or particularly expensive.

NOT what I read in the book titled "Emily Gets Her Gun" by Emily Miller. I think this book is a "must read" for all 2nd Amendment supporters.

[Pasifikawv]

Keep in mind, there are still many other gun control laws on the books in DC not directly addressed by the Court's decision:

- Only DC residents with registered firearms may possess ammo.
- No "restricted" ammo as defined by DC code
- Only reduced capacity magazines permitted
- No modern sporting arms permitted (aka "assault weapons")
- No "unsafe" handguns as defined by DC code (similar to CA compliant handguns).

Those carrying in DC today in celebration of the Court order (such as VA residents) may find themselves in violation of some of the many other DC gun control laws (standard mags, any ammo/wrong ammo, non-compliant handgun, etc.)

Unless I were a DC resident with a DC handgun registration (thereby insuring handgun, mag, and possession of ammo is in compliance with other DC gun restrictions) I would not consider carrying at this time.

Hopefully, these and other issues will be hammered out and a favorable reciprocity framework will be established (not holding my breath on that one or expecting the DC Council to move very quickly).

Again, this decision is GREAT, but just a stepping stone toward recognition of rights without excessive infringement. SAF/NRA and legal eagles such as Gura and Gottlieb will need to monitor (and likely challenge) DC actions, appeals, stays, and code proposals moving forward.

EDIT TO ADD:

Just read part of Chief Lanier's instructions to the force. They will not arrest for unregistered ammo for non-residents. Quote: "Residents of the District in possession of an unregistered firearm may be charged with Unregistered Firearm and, if applicable, Unregistered Ammunition if they do not also reside in a jurisdiction where they could legally possess the firearm. At this time, individuals who do not live in the District shall not be charged with either unregistered firearm or unregistered ammunition, but other charges may apply."

Chief Lanier spelled out three scenarios dealing with stopping a man on the street carrying a firearm:

-The man says he is a resident of the District, but the gun is unregistered. You should charge him with Unregistered Firearm.
-The man lives in Vermont, which does not require a license or permit for either open or concealed carry of a handgun. You run his name, and no criminal record is apparent. You should record any relevant information for potential further investigation, and he is free to leave.
-The man lives in Virginia, where no license or permit is required to openly carry a handgun. However, when you run his name, records indicate that he is a convicted felon. Under District and federal law, felons may not legally possess a firearm. You should arrest him for Unlawful Possession of a Firearm.

[Joe F]

I haven't read her book, but I have read most, if not all of her newspaper articles. While she speaks the truth, many of the challenges she faced were very over-dramatized. In one article she beats up on the folks in the gun registration office for being somewhat inept. I've dealt with the officers that she mentions by name, and to a man, they have been helpful and not obstructive in any way. What they don't have, is a good understanding of the gun laws. If you're looking to them for legal advice, you're in the wrong place. If you want to register a gun, and stick to the script, it's $48 and a 1-2 hour time investment ($13 and 15 minutes if it's your second gun and it isn't crowded).

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to hold up DC as a shining 2A Mecca, but it's not as bad as it's portrayed and light years beyond what it was (and getting better...)

[MrJT]

Originally Posted by Dennis The B

This ruling makes carry outside the home in D.C. constitutional.

Well, the ruling doesn't make it constitutional, it always has been. The ban was unconstitutional.

[Dennis The B]

Bump to the top for breaking news.

[RussellD]

Plus one for the good guys!

[badge]

Originally Posted by Joe F

As a DC resident, I have to say that registering a gun in the District is not that hard or particularly expensive. It costs $13 to register a gun plus a one time $35 fee to get fingerprinted. Transfer fees, on the other hand are very expensive. There's only one FFL and he charges $125. The only real PITA is that you have to bring the gun downtown to MPD register it (long guns too).

Sounds obtrusive and annoying. I want a firearm I show my DL and BUY it. 5 clams for the State Police background. No extra fee's. No REGISTRATION, even long guns. Sad how some folks ACCEPT this tyranny.

[PA Guns & Ammo]

Originally Posted by badge

Sounds obtrusive and annoying. I want a firearm I show my DL and BUY it. 5 clams for the State Police background. No extra fee's. No REGISTRATION, even long guns. Sad how some folks ACCEPT this tyranny.

Your state will be turning blue and you will be eating those words. If one does not follow the law, they go to jail. Easy for you to say when you do not have these laws.

James

[ladder13]

Originally Posted by badge

Sounds obtrusive and annoying. I want a firearm I show my DL and BUY it. 5 clams for the State Police background. No extra fee's. No REGISTRATION, even long guns. Sad how some folks ACCEPT this tyranny.

No one's accepting anything, there's a lawsuit. Don't FTF transfers of handguns have to go thru an FFL in PA? Annoying ain't it?

Oh, and your handguns aren't registered, they're in a "database". Obtrusive a bit?

http://www.pafoa.org/law#faq-do-i-ha...gister-my-guns

"It should be noted however that all transfers of handguns in Pennsylvania are required to go through the Pennsylvania Instant Check System (PICS) and as such the Pennsylvania State Police keep a "Sales Database" of all handguns purchased within the Commonwealth."


Wyoming, Vermont, Alaska, and Arizona you ain't.

[Harkrader]

This is what happened to Illinoising, and they promptly passed laws that once again deny civil rights.
That is what DC is doing. By the time they are done drafting and passing law, it'll be almost as dangerous to exercise this civil liberty now, as it was before.
It'll be a long road, unfortunately. I really hoped I'd live to see this liberty of the Bill of Rights restored. *sigh*

[Alpha Sierra]

Originally Posted by badge

Sounds obtrusive and annoying. I want a firearm I show my DL and BUY it. 5 clams for the State Police background. No extra fee's. No REGISTRATION, even long guns. Sad how some folks ACCEPT this tyranny.

I know you've been already called out on it, but I can't resist. How is that PA State Police "database" working out for you?

At least where I live I don't have to tell ANY government agency about ANY non-NFA firearm sales between private individuals. Did one cash and carry in a mall parking lot yesterday, matter of fact.

[ChattanoogaPhil]

It's not so much where a jurisdiction is, but what direction they are taking. This is a good pro-gun direction for DC.

Let's not forget that most all of America was not Shall Issue until the 90s. Prior to then, the carry laws in my state of Tenn were so draconian that this ruling would have made DC look like the bastion of gun carry freedom in comparison.

[Alpha Sierra]

Phil that is the truth. When concealed carry came to Ohio in 2004 (one of the last states in the country to do it), the laws were almost as bad as Illinois. You couldn't even conceal while driving WITH a CHL (thanks to our butt-hole highway patrol commissioner from back then).

Within 3 years about half of the restrictions were gone (including the ridiculous car open carry). Within 7 years we had castle doctrine at home and in the car and statewide pre-emption. Within 9 years we had no restrictions on car carry and significantly cleaned up the laws on general firearm transport.

We are now to the point where concealed carry in Ohio is almost as good as Florida in general, and better than FL in some respects. And we are not done pushing yet by a long shot.