All 4473s are registration forms

[heckinohio]

When your local gun shop guy hands you a 4473 to fill out, he makes a registration form out of it when he completes the last page where make, model, type & serial number are recorded. All this ends up in a national data base if & when he quits for whatever reason. You certainly dont think for one minute that the 4473s he submits on license surrender arent scrutinized & the information as to who bought what computerized???!!!. The compliance gal who was here when I told her I was surrendering my FFL had me to go through my books back to minit one & change any reference to a guns type that may confuse whomever was going to take that information from the forms.

My opinion...........

PJH

[ditrina]

'Jus wondering.. are there any facts that support your statement or are they truly an opinion..?

Thanks

[gtoppcop]

When the shop goes, they surrender the 4473s, the A&D logs and whatever else to the ATF's archives. Wiki the National Tracing Center. That should help answer some of the questions.

Here in California, as in other States like MA, IL, NY, CT, NJ and others, registration has long been a facet of owning firearms.

Yes, it's a slippery slope. There's already been some gun confiscations by the CA DOJ, under the guise of "safekeeping". Completely warrantless confiscation in most cases. I believe Ginny Simone did some reportage on it.

The US Government knows more about you than you do in most cases. It's not hard for them to determine what you have and how much...

[SMSgt]

That 357 revolver I bought years ago has probably been sold a dozen times since. Good luck tracing that puppy from my paperwork.

[RobzGuns]

I guess it's actually a good thing that all my guns were lost in that infamous boating accident.

[Road Rat]

Do you have any idea the size of staff it would take to perform the data entry/scanning/etc. for the MILLIONS of firearms sold daily in America???

Don't even get started on the multi-millions that were available before this silly form was started!!!

It would cost more than the current HMFWIC could come up with.

[ClayCow]

Originally Posted by Road Rat

Do you have any idea the size of staff it would take to perform the data entry/scanning/etc. for the MILLIONS of firearms sold daily in America???

Don't even get started on the multi-millions that were available before this silly form was started!!!

It would cost more than the current HMFWIC could come up with.

Its going digital now

[Club Gun Fan]

Originally Posted by RobzGuns

I guess it's actually a good thing that all my guns were lost in that infamous boating accident.

Have fun explaining what you just posted, like when was the accident and did you file a police report, file a claim with your insurance company? Did you know filing a false statement with a police department or insurance company is a felony. You just make a public statement. You don't think that these sites aren't monitored?

[BC38]

Originally Posted by ClayCow

Its going digital now

It still has to get into the database somehow. They can scan the forms, but due to poor copy quality and variances in hand writing there isn't an OCR program in the world that will accurately translate all those hand written forms into searchable text. Sure its all in the digitized archives, as scanned images that have to be read by HUMANS to find specific info.

The only way to reliably digitize all the data into a searchable format is to hand-enter all the info. As others have already said, the BATF doesn't have the manpower - or the resources to hire the manpower - to even begin to tackle that.

[ClayCow]

Originally Posted by BC38

It still has to get into the database somehow. They can scan the forms, but due to poor copy quality and variances in hand writing there isn't an OCR program in the world that will accurately translate all those hand written forms into searchable text. Sure its all in the digitized archives, as scanned images that have to be read by HUMANS to find specific info.

The only way to reliably digitize all the data into a searchable format is to hand-enter all the info. As others have already said, the BATF doesn't have the manpower - or the resources to hire the manpower - to even begin to tackle that.

Im not talking about paper copies done in the past. Im talking about now where ita going digital

[BC38]

Originally Posted by Club Gun Fan

Have fun explaining what you just posted, like when was the accident and did you file a police report, file a claim with your insurance company? Did you know filing a false statement with a police department or insurance company is a felony. You just make a public statement. You don't think that these sites aren't monitored?

Oh, yeah, they have a federal agent assigned to every gun forum in the country - and multiple ones on busy sites like this one. And they are really intensely interested in you and me and him, and every word we type.

Come ON! How many employees do you think the ATF has? Sure, if they have some reason to go after you they can dig back into server backups and find everything you posted, but what makes you think that anything the average person says or does interests the feds enough for them to devote that kind of resources to any of us average smoes?

Not every citizen is being watched like they were Jason Bourne. Only those whose activities and online rhetoric warrant "special attention" get it.

[BC38]

Originally Posted by ClayCow

Im not talking about paper copies done in the past. Im talking about now where ita going digital

Where exactly would this be? I've bought three or four guns from FFLs this year and for every single one the FFL and I filled out a paper 4473 form.

The only thing that is done digitally (sometimes) is the NCICS check - and that is just my info to make sure I'm not a listed felon. No info about the gun being purchased as far as I was able to determine. And most of the time even that part is done verbally over the phone.

[ClayCow]

Originally Posted by BC38

Where exactly would this be? I've bought three or four guns from FFLs this year and for every single one the FFL and I filled out a paper 4473 form.

The only thing that is done digitally (sometimes) is the NCICS check - and that is just my info to make sure I'm not a listed felon. No info about the gun being purchased as far as I was able to determine. And most of the time even that part is done verbally over the phone.

The NICS check is based off of the stuff you provide in 4473 isnt it? Its bern a while but Im pretty sure i did it digitally on base and at bass pro shops

[BC38]

Originally Posted by ClayCow

The NICS check is based off of the stuff you provide in 4473 isnt it? Its bern a while but Im pretty sure i did it digitally on base and at bass pro shops

Yes, but like I said, it is just YOUR identity info - no info about the gun. Heck, even your SSN is optional. They are just checking YOU against the list of convicted felons and prohibited persons. Not the gun. No info about the gunis even entered into it. And like I said, a lot of them are still done verbally with a phone call.

[ClayCow]

Originally Posted by BC38

Yes, but like I said, it is just YOUR identity info - no info about the gun. Heck, even your SSN is optional. They are just checking YOU against the list of convicted felons and prohibited persons. Not the gun. No info about the gunis even entered into it. And like I said, a lot of them are still done verbally with a phone call.

The serial number of the gun is placed onto the 4473 isnt it? Also im not saying there is a database or anything, I could care less. Its also unmanageable with private sales and all. Im just stating its digital so it is easier to create a database if needed.

[RobzGuns]

Originally Posted by Club Gun Fan

Have fun explaining what you just posted, like when was the accident and did you file a police report, file a claim with your insurance company? Did you know filing a false statement with a police department or insurance company is a felony. You just make a public statement. You don't think that these sites aren't monitored?

[RobzGuns]

Originally Posted by ClayCow

The NICS check is based off of the stuff you provide in 4473 isnt it? Its bern a while but Im pretty sure i did it digitally on base and at bass pro shops

The electronic NICS check is a 'closed' Two Step process. The information transmitted to NICS is only about the buyer, then the connection is closed. The Firearm information is added (offline) only AFTER the buyer is electronically cleared to purchase. Then a hard copy of the form is printed and kept by the FFL. NICS does NOT know what firearm is being purchased.

How do I know this? I needed to take a job at WM for a while and I worked in the Sporting Goods Dept. I did quite a few of these electronic NICS checks... Especially during the Holiday Season.

[BC38]

Originally Posted by ClayCow

The serial number of the gun is placed onto the 4473 isnt it? Also im not saying there is a database or anything, I could care less. Its also unmanageable with private sales and all. Im just stating its digital so it is easier to create a database if needed.

Yes, it is on the 4473, and if they want to come inspect them as part of an investigation they can.

HOWEVER, the SN of the gun is NOT entered online during the NICS check - or given verbally if the check is done by phone call. I've sat and watched/listened to it being done. Only your identity info is given. Period. Nothing about the gun is given to NICS - not the serial number, not even the make or model of the gun.

That info is all on the 4473 form, BUT the form stays with your LGS unless and until they go out of business and then their records are turned over the the ATF - who does not have the resources to digitize or enter them into a database.

When they pick them up they may review them to ensure the info is clear - but only in order to be able to go back to them for information in the unlikely event one of them becomes part of an investigation at some point in the future. They just don't have the manpower to input all the data off those MILLIONS of hand-written forms into some Big Brother database somewhere. With tens of thousands of gun sales completed every day, they just don't have the resources.

[ClayCow]

Gotcha. Understood. But im pointing out that now with the digital system it will not require a human and simply a program to process it all if life were to ever go that way.

I understand you might point out that it is closed, but that computer is hooked up to the internet and whether push or pull, someone can get it.

[k22fan]

Originally Posted by BC38

Where exactly would this be? I've bought three or four guns from FFLs this year and for every single one the FFL and I filled out a paper 4473 form.

[...]

Cabelas. I saw one customer provided a paper 4473. I presumed he insisted on paper or no sale. Cabelas routinely has customers fill out a 4473 on computers.

I'm not sure if the Chinese hack Cabelas' computers in real time but I'll bet they could if they wanted to.

In Washington and, as previously posted, in many other states, it hardly matters if some US agency snatches the info. As of this year all modern guns including muzzle loaders made since 1898 and regardless of their age all cartridge guns for which ammo is still sold must be transferred through an FFL then eventually entered into Washington State's computer. I say "eventually" only because before the new law took affect the state was about one and a half years behind getting handguns entered. If a federal agent wants to know what's in the state's computer all he has to do is ask.

[2152hq]

4473's and the surrender of them and the FFLs log book has been an on going arguement with respect to national gun registry since it was demanded of FFL's in the '68GCA.

There's been a court ruling that the ATF cannot computerize the warehoused records, though they have used some microfiche type scanning and retrieving systems. Probably others.
I don't understand the techy side of things .

FFL's can dispose of 4473's if they are older than a certain age,,I can't recall what it is. I should know it having been an 01 for 43yrs.
The log book and any other 4473's goes to Arlington Va facility within 30days of close of business.

[johngalt]

I believe FFLs are only required to keep the 4473s for 20 years. The law doesn't specify what happens to the older ones.

ATF is supposedly prohibited from building a database from the forms. That doesn't mean they aren't doing it anyway. A buddy used to have an FFL. back in the Clinton days, during a regular inspection, the agent made copies of all the forms pertaining to EBRs. That is also illegal.

[PatriotX]

I'm a LOT more concerned with my state's pistol registration than any national database.

At least they did away with mandatory Purchase Permits. Those were painful to acquire, and only good for 30 days.

How many states have no-check private party handgun sales? I know Indiana does, rendering a national database sort of useless.

[GerSan69]

Unless a person is doing something illegal, they "probably" aren't going to end up on the feds' radar. I say "probably" because anyone can get caught up in an investigation simply because you know somebody, or you're related to somebody that's being investigated. Best thing you can do is stay clean, don't bring attention to yourself, and don't let that shady brother-in-law anywhere near your gun safe.

[ladder13]

Do you have any idea the size of staff it would take to perform the data entry/scanning/etc. for the MILLIONS of firearms sold daily in America???
.

Wow, I need to buy more Ruger, Smith and Sig stocks.

[YeshuaIsa53]

If a name shows up for multiple sales throughout the year, surely NICS has a flag to support the quantity they are concerned about. They do ask how many firearms on the transfer. Anything over "one" gets at least a second look at the buyer. Buy a lot in a year and a red flag most likely goes up. Oh: S&W collector of good standing. No problem.

I think they are more concerned about multiple purchases than registration. After all, they are trying to serve and protect.

I have never heard one could destroy old 4473s, so that's new to me.

Someone buying a lot of handguns near the border? Most likely being watched if doing it legally.

I think they can look at your 4473s and your S&D book during an audit/visit if they feel a reason to. They most likely get to know you over the years.

[Bill Bates]

In "Abramski vs The United States" (the case concerning straw purchases) Judges referred to the 4473 as de facto registration. The ATF can and do look at them anytime they want without a warrant. The only thing is other than the government storing 4473s they requirer the dealer to store them for 20 years or turn them over to ATF if they change their licenses and or cease business under the original license.

Most dealers have had to send a copy of 4473 off to the ATF when the ATF has requested a search on a firearm. Somewhere in the back of my mind I think the dealer has to get that 4473 to them within 24 hours.

Does the government know you own firearms; sure they do. They know who has concealed carry permits. They record multiple handgun sales in five business days (and in some cases long guns). They do ask when doing a NICS check if it is a long gun or handgun or both sale. Unless all of your sales are from individuals off the books then Big Brother knows. Heck I keep records of all my personal sales and purchases just in case our favorite Uncle wants to where something came from or where it went. I'm not sure the boat accident excuse will play well.

[Hillbilly77]

I had a couple guns, but I got hard up for money and sold them.

[redlevel]

Originally Posted by Bill Bates

Heck I keep records of all my personal sales and purchases just in case our favorite Uncle wants to where something came from or where it went. I'm not sure the boat accident excuse will play well.

Neither Federal Law nor Georgia Law requires this. When doing a f/f sale or purchase, I ask to see a GA DL, and preferably a Georgia Firearms License. I do not record anything, and I don't allow the other party to do that. Especially not a DL number or a SS number. I adhere strictly to the law, but don't go a bit beyond. All I'm required by law to do is to not sell a gun to someone I know can't legally purchase one. I will not buy a gun if I have the slightest question. I have passed up some smokin' deals, but don't regret it at all. For the record, 99% of my f/f deals are with people I know, or at least am familiar with. Several people I have done multiple deals with are state or municipal/county LEOs. They are all comfortable with our casual/non-existent record keeping.

[eyegots2no]

Heckinohio....

Could you elaborate on.......?

"..... had me to go through my books back to minit one & change any reference to a guns type that may confuse whomever was going to take that information from the forms."

Thanks.

[Bill Bates]

I'm completely aware there is no Federal regulation that requires any record keeping when it comes to personal face to face sales. As long as we are not knowingly transferring a firearm to a restricted person we are not violating the law.

Either way when I sell or buy a firearm I requirer a bill of sale and these days I only sell to residents of Utah that have a current concealed firearms permit and Utah ID. Granted they may have done something to have their permit revoked but at least if there is a question I can say I did my due diligence. I would rather not have a question of wether I did know or suspect or should have know the sale was to a restricted person.

[BC38]

Bill Bates, I can understand where you're coming from, but keep in mind, you are always innocent until proven guilty - and so is the next guy. Unless the authorities can prove that you knew you were selling to a restricted person they can't even charge you with a crime - much less convict you. The burden of proof is pretty high for something like that, and the charge would never even make it to court unless you said you knew the buyer was prohibited. Plus you'd probably have grounds for a false arrest case.

[ClayCow]

Originally Posted by BC38

Bill Bates, I can understand where you're coming from, but keep in mind, you are always innocent until proven guilty - and so is the next guy. Unless the authorities can prove that you knew you were selling to a restricted person they can't even charge you with a crime - much less convict you. The burden of proof is pretty high for something like that, and the charge would never even make it to court unless you said you knew the buyer was prohibited. Plus you'd probably have grounds for a false arrest case.

Unfortunately. Wrong or not itll take alot of time and money on your end initially to get yourself cleared. If you know anything about the government, you will understand they have deep pockets and nothing but time. If you survive, you may be rewarded with a payout.

I personally dont do what Bill does. But, whats funny is that were against the government keepig a database on us, but we seem to build our own....

[blujax01]

Originally Posted by ClayCow

Im not talking about paper copies done in the past. Im talking about now where ita going digital

I filled out an electronic 4473 at Cabela's last month when I bought my Henry Big Boy .357 (had to throw that in there, lol) and in the end, they're still a paper record.

The digitalization of the form is only to make certain it is legible. I worked in a shop part time that doesn't have the technology to go computerized and the handwriting on these things was terrible. Very often, they were so bad that they had to be shredded and a new one filled out again before the transaction could be completed. And an ATF inspector is not amused by illegible forms. Anyway, after the info is provided, it is printed out for signature and filed. Cabela's swears they do not retain the electronic copy but I assume you always have the option of filling one out by hand.

This is all moot anyway. Rumor has it that all of my guns were sold anonymously in a government sponsored no-questions-asked buyback program.

[dougb1946]

You should be worried about the data your bank has. They know about every check you write-to who and how much. Your retailer knows what kind of toothpaste you use, size of your tidy whities and how often you buy them, how much toilet paper you use and what brand, where you bank, where you live, and can probably get you Soc sec number without much problem.

Your credit card company has you digitized completely-where you live, how much you make, where you make it and what you do to make it, how you spend it, how you play and with who you play. Your local library knows what you read. Your grocery store can use facial recognition software to track you through the store and record what you look at for how long (may want to stop checking out the magazine covers) and will program ads to send to your smartphone while you are near a specific product.

Your car has a computer and/or GPS that can track and record every place you go, stop, speed, and turn. The camera on your computer can be turned on by a hacker to watch and track what you do, and if you carry any cell phone, the phone company knows where that phone is at any given time, records this and knows who you are calling for how long, and NSA knows what you are saying.

I won't even talk about the neighbor who watches every move you make and likes to make movies. That little drone outside your bathroom window? The child writing his "what did you do this summer" paper for a nosy school board.

The 4473 is a piece of paper in a book, really low on the list of privacy invasions. Privacy is a myth. Anonymity rests in numbers. There are 320 million people to watch.

[cmj8591]

Not to mention the little ads that pop up on the side of this web page based on my last Google search from this computer.

What Doug says is very true. Privacy really is a myth. It always has been if you live in a society. The thing is that everyone here wants to be a needle in a haystack when what we already are is a needle in a pile of needles.

[ClayCow]

Originally Posted by cmj8591

Not to mention the little ads that pop up on the side of this web page based on my last Google search from this computer.

What Doug says is very true. Privacy really is a myth. It always has been if you live in a society. The thing is that everyone here wants to be a needle in a haystack when what we already are is a needle in a pile of needles.

You can VPN it and not store cookies itll VPN will make you anonymous unless a hacker comes looking for you.

[Muss Muggins]

When LE needs to find a gun possessor, they go backwards and forwards. They ask the person in possession where he got it, and they go to the manufacturer to find out where it was first shipped. More often than not, the latter process plays out until the gun was stolen, lost, or sold to "Joe" . . .

[pharmer]

ATF has been computerizing 4473's for at least 20 years. When I "did not renew" my type 01 FFL in 1995, I sent my bound book and 4473's to the ATF facility at Falling Waters WV for just that purpose. Fortunately, some of the information is useless the more time elapses. Joe

[BC38]

Originally Posted by pharmer

ATF has been computerizing 4473's for at least 20 years. When I "did not renew" my type 01 FFL in 1995, I sent my bound book and 4473's to the ATF facility at Falling Waters WV for just that purpose. Fortunately, some of the information is useless the more time elapses. Joe

OK, you surrendered your records - as required. And you know they put them into a computer... how? What makes you think the book didn't just get put into storage as is? What is your evidence to support the idea that they were computerized?

For the ATF to computerize all the 4473 records and create a database from them is an activity that they are explicitly forbidden to do under the law. To even attempt it would require THOUSANDS of data entry clerks working round the clock. So you're actually saying you believe that something like this could be kept secret for over 20 years with that many people involved?

Uh huh, just like the alien bodies and flying saucers at area 51 in Roswell. Oh, wait, that isn't a very good example is it - since it isn't secret and hasn't been for 50 years? And there are only a few dozen people who would have had to keep their mouths shut about that for it to stay a secret - if there were ever anything to keep secret in the first place.

That's the problem with the idea of some huge conspiracy. People just can't keep their darned mouths shut, and nothing stays secret for any length of time. This has always been true and it is more true now in the internet age than ever. The old saying that "three may keep a secret - but only if two of them are dead" is applicable here. Especially when it is something as sensitive as gun registration.

This is one of the most active gun boards on the net and this thread has 38 posts and 713 views and yet NOBODY has been able to provide one shred of anything more than opinion to support the idea that the ATF is creating a secret, illegal database from 4473 forms. Several folks have given reasonable explanations and examples why this is extremely unlikely. Yet some people, with no supporting evidence and in the face of every reasonable argument against it, continue to insist these conspiracy theories are facts.

Why is that?

[blujax01]

Originally Posted by BC38

... Several folks have given reasonable explanations and examples why this is extremely unlikely. Yet some people, with no supporting evidence and in the face of every reasonable argument against it, continue to insist these conspiracy theories are facts.

Why is that?

Because life is boring and conspiracy theories keep it interesting.

[pharmer]

Here's one:
https://books.google.com/books?id=-V...IVxh0eCh0T9ALq
Pay special attention to pages 11-13 on this one.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...vKqPpiHD51_M8g

[pharmer]

Oh yeah, and I do enjoy stirring "it" up. Joe

[BC38]

Originally Posted by k22fan

In Washington and, as previously posted, in many other states, it hardly matters if some US agency snatches the info. As of this year all modern guns including muzzle loaders made since 1898 and regardless of their age all cartridge guns for which ammo is still sold must be transferred through an FFL then eventually entered into Washington State's computer. I say "eventually" only because before the new law took affect the state was about one and a half years behind getting handguns entered.

Do you have any references to substantiate this? Everything I've been able to find says the records retention period is 20 days BY LAW.

[BC38]

Originally Posted by pharmer

Here's one:
https://books.google.com/books?id=-V...IVxh0eCh0T9ALq
Pay special attention to pages 11-13 on this one.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...vKqPpiHD51_M8g
Oh yeah, and I do enjoy stirring "it" up. Joe

Then you are going to have to do better than that.

First off both of these links are dealing ONLY with the records sent in by FFL license holders who have gone out of business or surrendered their license. They have NOTHING to do with current FFL holders and their sales. So they are a very small portion of the overall records.

Second your first link only talks about the paper records being put on microfiche - which is a scanned image of the piece of paper. That is basically just reducing the space needed to store the records. Microfiche are not searchable digital records.

Lastly your second link states that they have created an INDEX of the serial numbers from the forms to allow them to locate the microfiche with the scanned copy of the form for that specific serial number. Again, this is not a searchable digital database. Only an index of the photographed pages.

Essentially what is described at your links is a photographic version of a file cabinet full of papers with digital "labels" on the drawers to help them figure out which "drawer" to look in.

They cannot punch a serial number into a computer and pull up your name as the owner of the firearm. All they can do is use the serial number to look up the form IF the gun was sold by an FFL that has gone out of business and surrendered their records. NONE of the 4473 forms from currently active FFL holders are included in this repository.

[pharmer]

I see the error of my ways The .gov will be trusted by myself till the end of my days. I have seen the light. I can't wait to complete my first computerized 4473 since none of it will ever be stored anywhere. Joe

[BC38]

Originally Posted by pharmer

I see the error of my ways The .gov will be trusted by myself till the end of my days. I have seen the light. I can't wait to complete my first computerized 4473 since none of it will ever be stored anywhere. Joe

No one said - or even suggested - any of that. I don't trust the government - or anyone in it - any further than I can throw them. Obviously we must always remain vigilant in safeguarding the freedoms we still have or else we'll loose them.

But distorting the facts, fearmongering, conspiracy theories, and hyperbole aren't the way to do it. Going off half-cocked on these wild diatribes that are so easy to debunk just makes us look like a bunch of Roseanna Roseanna Dana impersonators and reactionaries who don't know what we're talking about.

Instead of wasting energy getting all outraged and jumping up and down over inaccurate statements and incorrect information, fighting the bogey men and tilting at windmills, how about we get outraged and try to put that energy to work dealing with and fighting something real instead? Like the unconstitutional anti-2nd amendment laws that really are on the books in so many states.

[k22fan]

Originally Posted by BC38

Do you have any references to substantiate this? Everything I've been able to find says the records retention period is 20 days BY LAW.

So that it is clear for the other members I want to restate that we are talking about Washington State law. You can obtain a copy of the list of handguns you purchased at FFLs in Washington from the Department of Licensing (DOL) business license people. First you download the form. Here is a direct link: http://www.dol.wa.gov/business/firea...ing/652012.pdf Next take the completed form to your local police department. Your local police check your I.D. then fax it to the Department of Licensing. I forget what the fee is or even if there is a fee. While you wait for the list to arrive I'd keep a good eye on your mailbox. I don't think you'd want mail thieves snatching the list.

The list will not include recent purchases because DOL lags behind getting the info entered. For out of staters I should reiterate that DOL does not obtain purchase information from the federal 4473 form. Washington State has had their own form for handgun purchases at FFLs for a long time. Unfortunately last November Washington voters passed an initiative that requires most gun transfers (not just sales) be processed by FFLs and treated the way only FFL handgun sales were previously.

Now BC38, that should establish that Washington is not destroying purchase records within 20 days. You might also find it interesting that police officers can see your purchase history on their computer screen during a traffic stop. That option was made available to them primarily for circumstances more likely to be dangerous than a speeding ticket. For example while driving to a domestic violence complaint they can learn residents of the home have purchased guns from FFLs. Depending on individual department policy and what they say to their dispatcher they will not necessarily see your purchase history at a traffic stop but they always see that you have a concealed pistol license it you have one.

[ClayCow]

Originally Posted by k22fan

So that it is clear for the other members I want to restate that we are talking about Washington State law. You can obtain a copy of the list of handguns you purchased at FFLs in Washington from the Department of Licensing (DOL) business license people. First you download the form. Here is a direct link: http://www.dol.wa.gov/business/firea...ing/652012.pdf Next take the completed form to your local police department. Your local police check your I.D. then fax it to the Department of Licensing. I forget what the fee is or even if there is a fee. While you wait for the list to arrive I'd keep a good eye on your mailbox. I don't think you'd want mail thieves snatching the list.

The list will not include recent purchases because DOL lags behind getting the info entered. For out of staters I should reiterate that DOL does not obtain purchase information from the federal 4473 form. Washington State has had their own form for handgun purchases at FFLs for a long time. Unfortunately last November Washington voters passed an initiative that requires most gun transfers (not just sales) be processed by FFLs and treated the way only FFL handgun sales were previously.

Now BC38, that should establish that Washington is not destroying purchase records within 20 days. You might also find it interesting that police officers can see your purchase history on their computer screen during a traffic stop. That option was made available to them primarily for circumstances more likely to be dangerous than a speeding ticket. For example while driving to a domestic violence complaint they can learn residents of the home have purchased guns from FFLs. Depending on individual department policy and what they say to their dispatcher they will not necessarily see your purchase history at a traffic stop but they always see that you have a concealed pistol license it you have one.

Truth be tols this is states rights in action. I can see the good and bad in this. I just wonder if it has helped save LEO lives, something hard to enumerate and quantify.

[ChattanoogaPhil]

Originally Posted by BC38

When they pick them up they may review them to ensure the info is clear - but only in order to be able to go back to them for information in the unlikely event one of them becomes part of an investigation at some point in the future. They just don't have the manpower to input all the data off those MILLIONS of hand-written forms into some Big Brother database somewhere. With tens of thousands of gun sales completed every day, they just don't have the resources.

There's about 20 million background checks per year. Not much of a data entry crew would be needed to simply enter date, your name, ss# or other id#, gun manufacturer and ser# from a 4473. A few seconds each. A small contractor crew could do it easy.

Heck, the ATF processes over a million NFA applications per year which are WAY more time consuming with only 30 examiners total.

The notion that entering data from purchase records is just too big of a project for the Feds or state is laughable. To the country, I see no reason not to suspect the database(s) already exist. And according to what K22Fan posted above, it looks like your state does.