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  #51  
Old 08-17-2020, 01:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Rastoff View Post
[My snip for brevity. You can read the original in post #43.]

Thank you for that explanation.

The thing that frustrates me is that it seems the rulings in these cases are based on feelings or political bent rather than law. For example: In the case over the 10 day waiting period, the judge at the district court ruled that the state hadn't provided sufficient evidence that the waiting period had reduced crime which was the main purpose for the law. He stated clearly in his brief that there was no correlation whatsoever to waiting 10 days and reducing crime. Kamala Harris appealed it. The 9th circuit upheld the ruling.

But then Harris appealed it again asking for an en banc ruling. At this point, based on what you pointed out as the two reasons, there was no basis for the 9th circuit to take up the case in en banc unless they were just doing it based on feeling rather than law, right? Of course they over turned it in en banc.
When the full court hears the appeal en banc they are not reviewing what the three judge appeal panel found. Rather, they hear the appeal of the district judge again.

But you are on to something. Originalist Judges want to decide cases based on what the Constitution means and Activist Judges decide cases based on what they want the Constitution to mean.

Judges are appointed and confirmed by elected officials. ]
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Old 08-17-2020, 05:44 PM
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Yes. By those of the ruling class who want their police forces to have the "upper hand." Pay attention, if you please.

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Yes, itís all very clear. Clearly these are efforts to restrict firearm ownership.
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Old 08-17-2020, 05:58 PM
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Donít be popping the champagne corks just yet.
This is FAR from over. Whatever else you can say about them, the Dems are not quitters like Rebumblican politicians are.

Do not be surprised if the Dem prosecutors in CA simply ignore any adverse rulings against them and continue to enforce the ban, just to force gun owners to bankrupt themselves on court costs and attorneyís fees.

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Old 08-17-2020, 08:44 PM
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But you are on to something. Originalist Judges want to decide cases on based on what the Constitution means and Activist Judges decide cases based on what they want the Constitution to mean.
You got that right but it goes a lot deeper. That's the critical problem with our entire governmental system underlying every political policy, congressional law, candidate qualification for office, and judicial decision. We have people in government positions, at all levels elected or not that swear to uphold the constitution but flagrantly do not! When was even just one removed from a position or an office, or impeached for not upholding their pledge???

Sure there are grey areas that may require scholarly debate and analysis to determine constitutionality of particular issues. But many policies, decisions, laws, etc., exist that are clear egregious affronts to the constitution.

If I had one suggestion/complaint I could make to our founding fathers, it would be that we have no quality control dept., i.e., a "constitutionality clearing house". It should not depend on which party is in power. "Activism" by definition is an affront to the constitution unless properly done thru the amendment process. But which it never is because it knowingly wouldn't succeed 99% of the time, and for good reason!

As it stands we are at the mercy of the initiative of politicians, (almost an oxymoron and certainly not a high point in the swamp of Washington), and if it happens, litigation on both sides is paid for by taxpayers. Or we're dependent on private citizens/organizations to fund extremely costly litigation, again taxpayers fund the government opposition. And even in that case, settlement decisions again fall prey to a mixed bag of originalist and activist attorneys general and judges! Folks, we're in a no win situation any way we look at it.
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Old 08-17-2020, 10:19 PM
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You got that right but it goes a lot deeper. That's the critical problem with our entire governmental system underlying every political policy, congressional law, candidate qualification for office, and judicial decision. We have people in government positions, at all levels elected or not that swear to uphold the constitution but flagrantly do not! When was even just one removed from a position or an office, or impeached for not upholding their pledge???

Sure there are grey areas that may require scholarly debate and analysis to determine constitutionality of particular issues. But many policies, decisions, laws, etc., exist that are clear egregious affronts to the constitution.

If I had one suggestion/complaint I could make to our founding fathers, it would be that we have no quality control dept., i.e., a "constitutionality clearing house". It should not depend on which party is in power. "Activism" by definition is an affront to the constitution unless properly done thru the amendment process. But which it never is because it knowingly wouldn't succeed 99% of the time, and for good reason!

As it stands we are at the mercy of the initiative of politicians, (almost an oxymoron and certainly not a high point in the swamp of Washington), and if it happens, litigation on both sides is paid for by taxpayers. Or we're dependent on private citizens/organizations to fund extremely costly litigation, again taxpayers fund the government opposition. And even in that case, settlement decisions again fall prey to a mixed bag of originalist and activist attorneys general and judges! Folks, we're in a no win situation any way we look at it.
Lotís of truth right there. ^^^^^^^^^
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  #56  
Old 08-17-2020, 10:27 PM
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I'm seeing posts about cancellations already over in CalGuns.
I am puzzled as tom why the gun laws in CA cause angst with so many people. The situation canít be nearly as bad as some would have us believe.
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Old 08-17-2020, 10:33 PM
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I am puzzled as tom why the gun laws in CA cause angst with so many people. The situation canít be nearly as bad as some would have us believe.
Not sure if youíre serious or joking. Yes, itís absolutely as bad as folks say.
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Old 08-18-2020, 02:06 AM
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I am puzzled as tom why the gun laws in CA cause angst with so many people. The situation canít be nearly as bad as some would have us believe.
It's actually worse once the strategy is understood. All of it is part of a piecemeal attack on 2nd amendment rights. None of it has anything to do with the usual "claims" of public safety! And as bad as that is, it's highly contagious to other blue states.
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  #59  
Old 08-18-2020, 04:25 AM
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For the record, there is presently no legal affect on jurisdictions outside the 9th Circuit. When the various Circuits have significantly different opinions that's when the SCOTUS takes a case.

I do think they'll have a complete de novo review by the entire 9th Circuit. I can't imagine that they'll sit back and let this stand so it's far from over.

As for the SCOTUS, if and when they ever decide to take up this case the real issue will be does Chief Justice Roberts have the legal cojones to rule properly in accord with the clear language of the Constitution or will he find another way to waffle out of it? Time will tell............
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  #60  
Old 08-18-2020, 07:22 AM
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I am puzzled as tom why the gun laws in CA cause angst with so many people. The situation canít be nearly as bad as some would have us believe.
Perhaps you currently do not live in or near California and think your state will never go down the road that California chose. Here in Virginia, it seemed the overwhelming attitude was that it would not happen here. Last November's state elections ushered in a Democrat majority in both houses of our legislature and we already had a very liberal, Democrat governor, lieutenant governor, and attorney general. In one legislative session we went from having preemption laws that forbade localities instituting their own gun laws, no restrictions on how many firearms you could buy in a 30 day period, and the ability to sell and trade firearms without a FFL, and whole list of freedoms and liberties related to firearms ownership. All of that disappeared within a 2-month period. So if you think it is a California problem and does not affect you, you may soon be in for a sad surprise.
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Old 09-01-2020, 12:36 AM
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I sure hope so but the 9th circuit has a lousy record. I don't have any but I hate to lose the rights.
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  #62  
Old 09-01-2020, 12:48 AM
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I don't know, but will lifting the ban allow us to use 20 and 30 round mags in our AR's?
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  #63  
Old 09-01-2020, 08:46 AM
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Don't celebrate too much - I'm POSITIVE they are working on a different approach to the same means as we speak! The very sad part is that so many Americans are so brainwashed they actually think they are "doing good" by these "feel good - do nothing" unconstitutional laws. Little do they realize they are actually "loading the gun that will eventually shoot them in the foot"!

The smart ones KNOW exactly what they are doing but the majority of he "followers" are nothing more than "useful idiots" I'm sad to say. One day they might wake up and wonder how we got where they are taking us......
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Old 09-01-2020, 10:08 PM
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The same thing with "Assault Weapons" bans. More people are killed with hand/feet and wooden things like sticks/lumber/bats etc, than rifles. People will use what they have. We need to limit brick purchases to one per person, per month. No one needs more than one brick. A downed tree should be considered an arsenal.
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Old 09-02-2020, 12:17 AM
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Circuit split as of today, compliments of the Third:
3rd Circuit Federal Appeals Court Says Large-Capacity Magazine Bans Are OK – Reason.com
(Is that a Mak mag filled with blanks?)
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Old 09-02-2020, 07:05 AM
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Split circuit court decisions might be just the ticket to get this settled by the SCOTUS, but given the decisions of the current SCOTUS, I would not plan any celebrations.
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Old 09-02-2020, 09:17 AM
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Circuit split as of today, compliments of the Third:
3rd Circuit Federal Appeals Court Says Large-Capacity Magazine Bans Are OK Ė Reason.com
(Is that a Mak mag filled with blanks?)
Good news! Onward.
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Old 09-02-2020, 10:21 AM
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Split circuit court decisions might be just the ticket to get this settled by the SCOTUS, but given the decisions of the current SCOTUS, I would not plan any celebrations.
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Good news! Onward.
Yeah, good news only if Roberts doesn't decide to flip again and go anti on us.
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Old 09-02-2020, 05:47 PM
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IMHO: (A) the Supreme Court does not want to hear a magazine case and (B) those in favor of protecting the Second Amendment should steer clear of this issue at the Supreme Court for the time being.

(A) The Supreme Court has shown no interest in taking up a Second amendment case in the past decade. There is no reason I like for why a magazine case would get heard.

(B) There are two reasons we do not want this magazine case at the Supreme Court. First, the current make-up of the Court is not majority gun-friendly. With one more originalist appointment the make-up would be a solid majority in favor of the 2A. Sometimes its good to be patient. Second, whether we like it or not, reasonable minds can differ about whether a "large capacity" magazine is protected by the Constitution. A person with an AR-15 and a satchel of 10 round magazines is certainly capable of exercising their right to keep and bear arms. A decision in this magazine case could easily go the "wrong" way and have far reaching negative consequences for the 2A.
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Old 09-02-2020, 05:56 PM
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Petition for en banc hearing by the Ninth Circuit was filed by California in the California magazine case on August 28, 2020

Copy of the en banc petition here

Therefore, there is no mandate coming soon from the Ninth Circuit.
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Old 09-03-2020, 07:16 AM
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IMHO: (A) the Supreme Court does not want to hear a magazine case and (B) those in favor of protecting the Second Amendment should steer clear of this issue at the Supreme Court for the time being.

(A) The Supreme Court has shown no interest in taking up a Second amendment case in the past decade. There is no reason I like for why a magazine case would get heard.

(B) There are two reasons we do not want this magazine case at the Supreme Court. First, the current make-up of the Court is not majority gun-friendly. With one more originalist appointment the make-up would be a solid majority in favor of the 2A. Sometimes its good to be patient. Second, whether we like it or not, reasonable minds can differ about whether a "large capacity" magazine is protected by the Constitution. A person with an AR-15 and a satchel of 10 round magazines is certainly capable of exercising their right to keep and bear arms. A decision in this magazine case could easily go the "wrong" way and have far reaching negative consequences for the 2A.
Exactly! Should the SCOTUS take up this issue and deem magazine capacity limits constitutional, we could see limits of 5 or fewer rounds in a magazine by states linking magazine capacity to hunting laws that limit the number of rounds.
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Old 09-03-2020, 11:17 AM
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And if things go south this Nov, you think SCOTUS will be more gun friendly, considering retirements?
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Old 09-03-2020, 01:57 PM
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Exactly! Should the SCOTUS take up this issue and deem magazine capacity limits constitutional, we could see limits of 5 or fewer rounds in a magazine by states linking magazine capacity to hunting laws that limit the number of rounds.
Wow, if that will be the case then my 8rd moon-clips/magazines for my 627PC, or 7rd moon-clips/magazines for my 686+ will end up being illegal as well!... /s

I would venture to opine that moon-clips will be argued in court to be the legal equivalent to a rifle/pistol magazine, at some point in the future...
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Old 09-03-2020, 08:24 PM
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Maybe if they limited the criminals, they could make some headway.....
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Old 09-04-2020, 08:34 AM
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Wow, if that will be the case then my 8rd moon-clips/magazines for my 627PC, or 7rd moon-clips/magazines for my 686+ will end up being illegal as well!... /s

I would venture to opine that moon-clips will be argued in court to be the legal equivalent to a rifle/pistol magazine, at some point in the future...
Except, so far, legislation has only involved detachable magazines. Fixed box, tubular (except for extension tubes), and revolvers have been exempt.
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Old 09-04-2020, 11:17 AM
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Without getting political, whether your Personal firearms are/could be affected or not is not the issue. Itís the concept of any additional limitations on firearm ownership that should concern us all. We are all in this together, 30 round mag or 3 round moon clip.
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Old 09-04-2020, 11:51 AM
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Except, so far, legislation has only involved detachable magazines. Fixed box, tubular (except for extension tubes), and revolvers have been exempt.
I agree, "...so far..." IMO, stranger things have already been argued/passed in our past... such as "a pistol grip" equals "assault" weapon/rifle...etc. Also, differentiating between one trigger pull and one discharge, when both revolvers and pistols meet that criteria... Moon-clips can/could be defined as "removable" aka "detachable" reloading devices...

Not arguing here, just being a bit fearful of our future 2nd Amendment rights defined.

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Old 09-05-2020, 09:54 AM
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Without getting political, whether your Personal firearms are/could be affected or not is not the issue. Itís the concept of any additional limitations on firearm ownership that should concern us all. We are all in this together, 30 round mag or 3 round moon clip.
Oh, I agree 110%! It's the slippery slope of limiting or banning just one or two things, for the safety of everyone... for now... but then later, the restrictions expand.
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Old 09-13-2020, 01:58 PM
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There is a good video just out that discusses the 17 states that are supporting California's appeal - many of these states do not currently have limitations on mag capacity, but since they are supporting Cal's efforts they may be indicating that they will also be putting in limitations in the future. It's a video you should watch IMHO - your state may on this list.

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17 STATES SUPPORTING CA'S MAG BAN!!! - YouTube
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Old 09-16-2020, 10:38 AM
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There is a good video just out that discusses the 17 states that are supporting California's appeal - many of these states do not currently have limitations on mag capacity, but since they are supporting Cal's efforts they may be indicating that they will also be putting in limitations in the future. It's a video you should watch IMHO - your state may on this list.

Pete99004

17 STATES SUPPORTING CA'S MAG BAN!!! - YouTube
Yes, people need to pay attention and take action in their own states.

However, what this really tells me is there are 32 states that don't support CA's mag ban. That should speak louder than the minority that do support it.
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Old 09-26-2020, 07:57 PM
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I have to wonder if once Judge Barrett become Justice Barrett if ban states will pressure CA NOT to try to bring this case to the Supreme Court?

That would likely include not pursuing a request for an en banc rehearing.

Upholding this decision would be bad for those magazine ban states, but good for the citizens therein.
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Old 09-28-2020, 10:05 PM
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One thing that is baffling is that only a few percent of all firearms homicides are with rifles. So why a ban on long rifle mags? FBI — Expanded Homicide Data Table 8

Last edited by Racer X; 09-28-2020 at 10:08 PM.
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Old 09-29-2020, 12:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Racer X View Post
One thing that is baffling is that only a few percent of all firearms homicides are with rifles. So why a ban on long rifle mags? FBI ó Expanded Homicide Data Table 8
We must try to always keep in mind at all times that none of this has anything to do with firearms crimes, safety, logic, nor common sense. It's all only about political idealism, power, and control!

Firearms crime stats, safety stats, logic, and common sense are tools that we must use to defeat this nonsense! And with more non-activist judges on the bench it works better and better, thank goodness!
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Old 09-29-2020, 12:40 AM
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One thing that is baffling is that only a few percent of all firearms homicides are with rifles. So why a ban on long rifle mags? FBI ó Expanded Homicide Data Table 8
Because they look SCARY - which makes a restriction on them more palatable to the masses. Of course once they have a ban on "high" (actually NORMAL) capacity magazines for scary black rifles in place it is a much smaller and easier step to impose them on other kinds of guns, including handguns.
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Old 09-29-2020, 06:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Racer X View Post
One thing that is baffling is that only a few percent of all firearms homicides are with rifles. So why a ban on long rifle mags? FBI ó Expanded Homicide Data Table 8
Because they look scary and look a lot like the select fire carbines and rifles issued in the military. The battle cry here in Virginia is that weapons of war (military style weapons) have no place on our streets. It's all about optics and catch phrases and can (will) open the door to bans encompassing even more firearms and ammunition.
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Old 09-29-2020, 09:11 AM
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Hmm
With the likelihood of SCOTUS getting another, solidly conservative justice it may cause certain AGs and circuit courts to rethink their odds of success before risking a case being overturned by SCOTUS and having an unfavorable outcome incorporated against all 50 states and DC.
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Old 09-29-2020, 09:26 AM
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Looks like next year will be the time to bring 2A cases to the court.
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Old 09-29-2020, 12:25 PM
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Looks like next year will be the time to bring 2A cases to the court.

Yes, but you can't make the court take up the cases.

There have been many "good" cases over the years that the Supreme court simply refused to hear.
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Old 09-29-2020, 03:11 PM
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One thing that is baffling is that only a few percent of all firearms homicides are with rifles. So why a ban on long rifle mags? FBI ó Expanded Homicide Data Table 8
I wasn't around until 1941 but I've read it was machine guns in the 30s. I remember the 60s and it was cheap pistols. Now it's large mags and auto rifles. They just do one step at a time. They know if they do enough inches eventually it will be a mile. Larry
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Old 09-30-2020, 07:00 AM
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The issue with machine guns in the 1930's was due to organized crime and the prohibition on alcoholic beverages. I'd wager that had prohibition not been enacted, there would not have been such violence.

Prohibition gives rise to the black market.
The black market goes under the control of criminal organizations.
Criminal organizations battle and wage war over territory.
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Old 10-14-2020, 09:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bushmaster1313 View Post


Petition for en banc hearing was filed by California AG on August 28, 2020
So, nothing further? No latest news on this?

Are gun owners running out and buying high cap mags, legally?
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Old 10-14-2020, 11:25 PM
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With SCOTUS likely to go 6-3, Bacerra and the 9th may rethink their position. If SCOTUS overturns Duncan, it would incorporate their silliness against ALL the states and DC.
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