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  #51  
Old 10-26-2020, 03:14 PM
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ATF decides Honey Badger AR Pistol is SBR ATF decides Honey Badger AR Pistol is SBR ATF decides Honey Badger AR Pistol is SBR ATF decides Honey Badger AR Pistol is SBR ATF decides Honey Badger AR Pistol is SBR  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tazaroot View Post
I'm agreeing with you 100% that the cause for alarm with the fed boyz is that the "brace" is adjustable. No different than putting a six position telescopic stock on a regular AR pistol. I built my own AR pistol with a 7" barrel and decided to forgo the brace (don't like them) and put on a Phase 5 padded buffer tube.
Well, FWIW, look up the Ruger 08570 AR pistol. It has a length-adjustable arm brace too, and the ATF hasn't gone after it (yet).

I think the theory advanced by others is more plausible.
That it is more a combination of 1) they didn't get BATFE approval for their "brace", and 2) it really isn't possible to get your arm inside their "brace".

Though the fact that it is adjustable COMBINED with the other two issues may be a third contributing factor to the BATFE deciding that they crossed the (ill defined) line with their design. Kinda like the GCA "points" system blocking the import of cheap handguns with too many of the "wrong" features.

I like my shockwave brace. It has a fixed length and doesn't really look like a stock due to its blade-like shape. Even though it can be braced against your shoulder, it isn't designed to be very comfortable if used that way, which (theoretically) would discourage it being used that way.
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Old 10-26-2020, 04:30 PM
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I think the problem with the Honey Badger is that the "brace" is adjustable for length. Every other brace I've seen is fixed. The Honey Badger brace may as well be an adjustable carbine stock. I'll bet a dollar that's how the ATF saw it.
I'd take that bet.

First, I have personally never seen a fixed arm brace on an AR-style pistol, and my buddy and FFL is a Class 5 manufacturer and he builds them routinely. Everyone I have ever seen adjusts the same way as a Mag-Pul stock, by way of example. So the adjustability of the Honey Badger cannot be the issue.

Someone above said something about an error in measurements. That might be true, I don't know, but I understood the Honey Badger's brace to be solid such that one cannot easily get an arm into it, if at all. If it is solid then it's not a brace for an arm, it's a stock.

I could go on and on about the legal niceties of this issue but suffice it to say the ATF regulations are poorly written, even more poorly understood, and it is for precisely that reason that firearms like the Shockwave and AR pistol exist.

A small but amusing correction for BB7 is in order:

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Originally Posted by BB57 View Post

..........
Ideally, how it works is that a law is introduced in both houses, reconciled in both houses to resolve any differences, and the reconciled bill is then passed on both houses.

Once that happens the law is sent to the cognizant federal agency to write the regulations that will implement the law...............
One fun omission there, just for clarity:

and the reconciled bill is then passed on both houses.

Right in here is where that reconciled bill has to go to the President for signature in order to become a law

Once that happens the law is sent to the cognizant federal agency
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Old 10-26-2020, 10:42 PM
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I'd take that bet.

Someone above said something about an error in measurements. That might be true, I don't know, but I understood the Honey Badger's brace to be solid such that one cannot easily get an arm into it, if at all. If it is solid then it's not a brace for an arm, it's a stock.
My inside source said the entire issue came about because of the (incorrect) manner by which the ATF measured the length from the trigger to the end of the butt plate. By the ATF's own rule, it should have been measured "in line with the bore." Instead, the measurement was made diagonally to the lower end of the butt plate, which gave a measurement longer than allowed--20 inches I think he said. It was not a question of it being a collapsible or folding stock, just an arbitrary measurement incorrectly applied.

So basically, the ATF did not follow its own rule and screwed up.
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Old 10-26-2020, 10:45 PM
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Time to amend the NFA. Remove restrictions on SBRs and "sawed off shotguns." As well as silencers. They are not unreasonable threats to society.
This ^^^^^^^
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Old 10-26-2020, 11:39 PM
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Originally Posted by ISCS Yoda View Post

Someone above said something about an error in measurements. That might be true, I don't know, but I understood the Honey Badger's brace to be solid such that one cannot easily get an arm into it, if at all. If it is solid then it's not a brace for an arm, it's a stock.
If that's true then what's this? It's solid, not readily adjustable, but it is adjustable, and an arm obviously doesn't fit inside.



Is it a stock? That's the KAK shockwave blade stabilizer brace.
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Old 10-27-2020, 01:32 AM
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there are a number of adjustable braces on the market.
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Old 10-29-2020, 11:20 AM
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Originally Posted by SAFireman View Post
From reading the material provided, it appears that the ATF doesn't buy the pistol brace as such. If they re-submitted with an actual functioning brace, then maybe this would go away.

Well, the brace looks like a buttstock to me. The ATF seems to require any approved pistol brace leave extensive bruising to the shoulder of a user firing it that way.


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Old 10-29-2020, 11:23 AM
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ATF decides Honey Badger AR Pistol is SBR ATF decides Honey Badger AR Pistol is SBR ATF decides Honey Badger AR Pistol is SBR ATF decides Honey Badger AR Pistol is SBR ATF decides Honey Badger AR Pistol is SBR  
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Originally Posted by Gamecock View Post
Time to amend the NFA. Remove restrictions on SBRs and "sawed off shotguns." As well as silencers. They are not unreasonable threats to society.

Lots of luck with that one. After the shooting at congressmen playing baseball occurred, the hearing protection act went in file 13. Probably forever. People carrying ARs to protests for no good reason probably killed the rest of potential gun regulations favorable to us.


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Old 12-18-2020, 03:03 PM
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Default ATF going after AR-15 pistols

"AR-15 pistols and similar firearms — which are designed with braces that strap on to a shooter’s forearm — to be registered, turned in, dismantled, or destroyed"
Proposed ATF Guidance on AR-15 Pistols Could Impact Millions | Newsmax.com
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Old 12-18-2020, 05:30 PM
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Hi folks! Regardless of which side of the fence you are sitting on in this issue, the letter has been officially posted today, and the 14 day clock (I know, should be 90 days) for comments begins today!
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Old 12-18-2020, 06:31 PM
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Federal Register page with a link to submit comments:

Federal Register
::
Objective Factors for Classifying Weapons with “Stabilizing Braces”


Whether or not you have a favorable opinion of "pistol braces", such a change criminalizes currently legal property owned by millions of Americans, and is a change that should not be allowed to be performed administratively by unelected bureaucrats.

I would hope that anyone with any interest in retaining their 2nd Amendment Rights would speak out against any such action regardless if it impacted them specifically.
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Old 12-19-2020, 10:25 AM
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This will be the avenue by which the Harris-Biden administration will reduce the numbers of a whole lot of different firearms in civilian hands. No need to change or enact law, just re-write a regulation issued by a federal agency. No muss, no fuss, no act of congress.
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Old 12-19-2020, 06:09 PM
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This will be the avenue by which the Harris-Biden administration will create a lot of technical felons. No need to change or enact law, just re-write a regulation issued by a federal agency. No muss, no fuss, no act of congress.
Fixed it for you
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Old 12-20-2020, 11:36 AM
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ATF decides Honey Badger AR Pistol is SBR ATF decides Honey Badger AR Pistol is SBR ATF decides Honey Badger AR Pistol is SBR ATF decides Honey Badger AR Pistol is SBR ATF decides Honey Badger AR Pistol is SBR  
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Fixed it for you
Yeah, turn people into felons based on a technicality.
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Old 12-20-2020, 07:22 PM
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I'd prefer to do away with the BATFE altogether.
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Old 12-21-2020, 05:48 PM
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Public comment period ends in a couple of days.
FILE YOUR COMMENTS!!

Regulations.gov
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Old 12-21-2020, 06:05 PM
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Public comment period ends in a couple of days.
FILE YOUR COMMENTS!!

Regulations.gov
Thanks, I have submitted a comment. Don't know if it really helps, but at least I feel like I did something to inhibit further regulation on and dilution of our rights.
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Old 12-21-2020, 06:23 PM
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Thanks, I have submitted a comment. Don't know if it really helps, but at least I feel like I did something to inhibit further regulation on and dilution of our rights.
Good man!
Remember:
If you don't comment, you don't get to whine about it!
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Old 12-21-2020, 06:43 PM
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Straight from the horse’s mouth:


Federal Register
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Objective Factors for Classifying Weapons with “Stabilizing Braces”
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Old 12-21-2020, 07:50 PM
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i submitted a comment even though i dont own any Ar's

Last edited by HeyJoe; 12-21-2020 at 07:52 PM.
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Old 12-22-2020, 08:11 AM
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i submitted a comment even though i dont own any Ar's
I commented as well. I look at it like this, It is up to us to protect the rights of those behind us.
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Old 12-22-2020, 08:59 AM
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Done and I am not a brace owner. But, to me it is an infringement
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Old 12-22-2020, 09:27 AM
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I don't have one either, but they are legal and have not caused safety or welfare problems nor do they create a select fire or full automatic firearm, so why suddenly make them illegal or require registration and a $200 fee? What if having fog lights on a motor vehicle suddenly required a special registration and fee? Seriously, where does this sort of thing stop?
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Old 12-22-2020, 10:03 AM
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Sent, and I don’t agree, at all, with what the ATF is doing here...but...

All the social media/YouTube videos of guys shouldering pistol braces brought this on ourselves. What do they expect will happen when you don’t use the product as intended and post videos of it for the whole world to see.

Banning them isn’t going to do anything and it’s certainly government overreach but it’s also a punishment for being dumb.
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Old 12-22-2020, 10:13 AM
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Sent, and I don’t agree, at all, with what the ATF is doing here...but...

All the social media/YouTube videos of guys shouldering pistol braces brought this on ourselves. What do they expect will happen when you don’t use the product as intended and post videos of it for the whole world to see.

Banning them isn’t going to do anything and it’s certainly government overreach but it’s also a punishment for being dumb.
They sent a letter out saying that unless the device was redesigned, by making alterations like taking the strap off, firing a weapon with a brace from your shoulder was not illegal.
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Old 12-22-2020, 03:56 PM
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Sent, and I don’t agree, at all, with what the ATF is doing here...but...

All the social media/YouTube videos of guys shouldering pistol braces brought this on ourselves. What do they expect will happen when you don’t use the product as intended and post videos of it for the whole world to see.

Banning them isn’t going to do anything and it’s certainly government overreach but it’s also a punishment for being dumb.
How SBR's got sucked into the NFA morass is a question of bureaucratic overreach in and of itself.

How are they in any way related to the ATF's raison d'ete :" The purpose of the NFA is “to regulate certain weapons likely to be used for criminal purposes,” United States v. Thompson/Center Arms Co., 504 U.S. 505, 517 (1992)" ?

So, how are these "likely to be used for criminal purposes"?
Got any evidence for that ATF?
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Old 12-22-2020, 05:41 PM
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How SBR's got sucked into the NFA morass is a question of bureaucratic overreach in and of itself.

How are they in any way related to the ATF's raison d'ete :" The purpose of the NFA is “to regulate certain weapons likely to be used for criminal purposes,” United States v. Thompson/Center Arms Co., 504 U.S. 505, 517 (1992)" ?

So, how are these "likely to be used for criminal purposes"?
Got any evidence for that ATF?
In reality they have no evidence. That said their rationale in the 1930's was the size of the weapon and it being able to be easily concealed. The US Treasury Department tried to include pistols and revolvers into the NFA, but this was defeated.

The US Government has been trying to outlaw guns, at least publicly, since 1934 and more probably long before.

They won't quit until they have achieved their goal. The anti's are patient, driven and dedicated to their ill conceived folly. They see every small gain as a win. They have never and will never compromise. Every "compromise" has them winning something and US only getting to keep less and less of our rights.

If we are not vigilant they will win.
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Old 12-23-2020, 07:09 PM
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I don't have one either, but they are legal and have not caused safety or welfare problems nor do they create a select fire or full automatic firearm, so why suddenly make them illegal or require registration and a $200 fee? What if having fog lights on a motor vehicle suddenly required a special registration and fee? Seriously, where does this sort of thing stop?
It does not stop. It is erosion, what the libtards refer to as "a reasonable beginning". No matter whet you give up this time they will be back. They are going to waive the $200 fee. Just register them so they know who has them and how many (for now).

I do not know how many of you have taken a few minutes to read the current proposal. It mentions several factors that they could use to decide whether a particular gun is an SBR including overall length, weight, barrel length, caliber and eye relief of any attached optics. Yet it fails to define specifically what any of those factors are. Reminds me of a quote you hear from time to time from a Supreme Court decision on an obscenity case.

"Obscene" speech is "unprotected" speech as ruled by the Supreme Court. ... In 1964, Justice Potter Stewart tried to explain "hard-core" pornography, or what is obscene, by saying, "I shall not today attempt further to define the kinds of material I understand to be embraced... but I know it when I see it ..."
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Old 12-23-2020, 08:38 PM
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Default It's over.....for now

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/ge...20pdf/download
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  #80  
Old 12-23-2020, 08:48 PM
Sgt911 Sgt911 is offline
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ATF decides Honey Badger AR Pistol is SBR ATF decides Honey Badger AR Pistol is SBR ATF decides Honey Badger AR Pistol is SBR ATF decides Honey Badger AR Pistol is SBR ATF decides Honey Badger AR Pistol is SBR  
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They have serious ADD over there.
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Old 12-23-2020, 09:40 PM
TX-Dennis TX-Dennis is offline
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ATF decides Honey Badger AR Pistol is SBR ATF decides Honey Badger AR Pistol is SBR ATF decides Honey Badger AR Pistol is SBR ATF decides Honey Badger AR Pistol is SBR ATF decides Honey Badger AR Pistol is SBR  
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They have serious ADD over there.
Pretty sure it was my comment that convinced them.


Yeah, right.
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Old 12-23-2020, 10:57 PM
asilcot asilcot is offline
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ATF decides Honey Badger AR Pistol is SBR ATF decides Honey Badger AR Pistol is SBR ATF decides Honey Badger AR Pistol is SBR ATF decides Honey Badger AR Pistol is SBR ATF decides Honey Badger AR Pistol is SBR  
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Pretty sure it was my comment that convinced them.


Yeah, right.
Yours, mine and the 67,400 others that were submitted during the short comment period allowed.
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Old 12-24-2020, 02:48 AM
asilcot asilcot is offline
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ATF decides Honey Badger AR Pistol is SBR ATF decides Honey Badger AR Pistol is SBR ATF decides Honey Badger AR Pistol is SBR ATF decides Honey Badger AR Pistol is SBR ATF decides Honey Badger AR Pistol is SBR  
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Just ran across this letter to Bill Barr signed by 90 congressmen:

https://scontent.fric1-1.fna.fbcdn.n...02&oe=60087B59

Last edited by asilcot; 12-24-2020 at 02:51 AM.
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Old 12-24-2020, 11:15 AM
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ATF decides Honey Badger AR Pistol is SBR ATF decides Honey Badger AR Pistol is SBR ATF decides Honey Badger AR Pistol is SBR ATF decides Honey Badger AR Pistol is SBR ATF decides Honey Badger AR Pistol is SBR  
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Just ran across this letter to Bill Barr signed by 90 congressmen:

https://scontent.fric1-1.fna.fbcdn.n...02&oe=60087B59
HOLY MOLY!! Congress Critters did something useful!

Merry Christmas everyone!!
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Old 12-24-2020, 12:37 PM
TX-Dennis TX-Dennis is offline
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ATF decides Honey Badger AR Pistol is SBR ATF decides Honey Badger AR Pistol is SBR ATF decides Honey Badger AR Pistol is SBR ATF decides Honey Badger AR Pistol is SBR ATF decides Honey Badger AR Pistol is SBR  
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I'm not surprised to see my Congressman's name on there. Thanks Mike.
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Old 12-24-2020, 01:30 PM
stansdds stansdds is offline
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ATF decides Honey Badger AR Pistol is SBR ATF decides Honey Badger AR Pistol is SBR ATF decides Honey Badger AR Pistol is SBR ATF decides Honey Badger AR Pistol is SBR ATF decides Honey Badger AR Pistol is SBR  
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Originally Posted by asilcot View Post
Just ran across this letter to Bill Barr signed by 90 congressmen:

https://scontent.fric1-1.fna.fbcdn.n...02&oe=60087B59
WOW!!!!! Thoroughly impressed with that letter.

My Congressman did not sign the letter, not surprised as he is on the blue team and also very rarely shows up for anything other than to collect his paycheck.
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