NJ slapped down in LEOSA case

[robertrwalsh]

New Jersey apparently has a long history of screwing with retired cops and an official policy of ignoring the LEOSA, insisting that it didn't apply in New Jersey. The New Jersey FOP and the Federal Law Enforcement Officers Association with help from the NRA-ILA and the Association of New Jersey Rifle and Pistol Club associations filed a federal suit, which was just decided. The court said very pointedly that the New Jersey permit requirements and prohibition on hollow point bullets for retired officers violate the federal Supremacy Clause. reference: Federal Law Enforcment Officers Association vs. Grewal.

[sigp220.45]

Thats a pretty interesting case. Once NJ realized they would probably lose, they changed their policy that federal retirees and officers who retired from non-NJ departments would have to get NJ permits to carry. They then argued that since they changed the policy the case was moot.

The court wasn’t having it though. Pretty much a slam dunk for the good guys.

[ISCS Yoda]

Excellent - a good week in court for the good guys. Not so much in the Congress but the courts will fix that junk, too.

[CH4]

Folks retire and actually move to NJ?
Sorry, just thinking out loud

[GaryS]

Some may drive through or visit relatives that still haven't completed their tunnels to get out.

Seriously though, in light of the Bruen decision there is little likelihood of a successful appeal. For that matter, non police officers should be able to carry hollow point ammunition now as well because of Bruen.

Originally Posted by CH4

Folks retire and actually move to NJ?
Sorry, just thinking out loud

[CH4]

Originally Posted by GaryS

Some may drive through or visit relatives that still haven't completed their tunnels to get out.

Seriously though, in light of the Bruen decision there is little likelihood of a successful appeal. For that matter, non police officers should be able to carry hollow point ammunition now as well because of Bruen.

Hopefully everyone can now carry hollow points.

[Paul in Nevada]

I don't see this as a Second Amendment issue since it has nothing to do with gun rights for the people, only special privileges for retired gov't employees.

[Steve K]

Great news! I sometimes visit family there and it was always a touchy point to carry or not. I would lock my pistol in the truck while going through MD and NJ. I think the chances of getting NJ carry permit for LEOSA was slim to none so in essence LEOSA was still not recognized. Let's see how the NJ politicians handle this decision.

[lrrifleman]

Yesterday, the Gov. issued an executive order to all state authorities to identify as many locations as possible that could be designated as "gun free zones". Last night, the State AG directed all county prosecutors to process applications without requiring "justifiable need".

[Bald1]

Forgive my ignorance but I’m not sure what the fight was? Is anyone allowed to carry hollow points? Just cops? Please explain

[sigp220.45]

Originally Posted by Bald1

Forgive my ignorance but I’m not sure what the fight was? Is anyone allowed to carry hollow points? Just cops? Please explain

The fight was New Jersey ignoring federal law. LEOSA says qualified retired LEOs can carry anywhere in the US. NJ said no, you also need a NJ pistol permit. Also, no hollowpoints except for active LE. So three retired Feds sued. NJ saw they would lose, and changed the rule and claimed therefore the suit was no longer relevant. The court just ruled that moot point or not, NJ still had to follow federal law.

[Old cop]

Sadly my NJ buddy passed away so I no longer have any reason to go there. When we did visit I swapped out my HP ammo for FMJ and hoped my LEOSA certification would work IF I got stopped. Never could understand the reason for the HP restriction.

[ladder13]

Originally Posted by lrrifleman

Yesterday, the Gov. issued an executive order to all state authorities to identify as many locations as possible that could be designated as "gun free zones". Last night, the State AG directed all county prosecutors to process applications without requiring "justifiable need".

I’m sure Newark,Patterson and Camden are gun free zones.

[armadillo]

Originally Posted by CH4

Folks retire and actually move to NJ?
Sorry, just thinking out loud

The cops in New York never want to retire because the "light-at-the-end-of-the-tunnel" is coming from New Jersey (the Garden State).

[ladder13]

Not that I want one with the minefield imposed, but NJ doing non resident licenses?


https://www.nj.gov/oag/dcj/agguide/d...n%20Public.pdf

[WR Moore]

Originally Posted by CH4

Hopefully everyone can now carry hollow points.

I took two lessons away from my Constitutional Law class. The first one was don't be a test case. Even if you eventually "win", you've experienced major financial loss and aggravation as well as possible jail time. Let someone else get their name on an appellate decision.

[stansdds]

The bluest states are definitely making it nearly impossible to comply with all of their "shall issue" processing prerequisites.

[Sevens]

I consider myself exceptionally pro-Cop. This started in my formative shooting years hanging out with Flint City and Flint Twp cops who shot PPC at the club where I grew up. This has long since been re-affirmed as four of my favorite people in my life are cops… one a long time officer in a liberal suburb here locally, one that works in the very dirty part of the biggest city here and my best buddy who is a deputy in the county that may be the biggest local meth hub, and his first born son is fresh out of the Academy and started on the job in another suburb a couple months ago.

If you want a guy that is harshly Pro-Cop with zero LE experience of his own and none in my family growing up, I am exactly that guy.

At the same time…

Paul in Nevada nailed this in the X-ring with authority.

Originally Posted by Paul in Nevada

I don't see this as a Second Amendment issue since it has nothing to do with gun rights for the people, only special privileges for retired gov't employees.

Hear hear. Call it my own simple jealousy if that’s what ya need.

Definitely NOT even kinda suggesting that I think retired LE should be hassled out of state. I’m just Pro-2A I guess.

[Muley Gil]

Originally Posted by GaryS

Some may drive through or visit relatives that still haven't completed their tunnels to get out.

Seriously though, in light of the Bruen decision there is little likelihood of a successful appeal. For that matter, non police officers should be able to carry hollow point ammunition now as well because of Bruen.

The Commonwealth of Virginia REQUIRES armed security officers to carry hollow point ammo when on duty.

NJ law reminds me of the BS years ago when police officers were forbidden to carry HPs. Now the Powers in Charge in New Jersey want to deny better ammunition to non-police.

[WR Moore]

Good to know if some CA starts demonizing someone for using same.

[ISCS Yoda]

Originally Posted by Paul in Nevada

I don't see this as a Second Amendment issue since it has nothing to do with gun rights for the people, only special privileges for retired gov't employees.

Everything that interferes with anyone's rights with respect to firearms is a Second Amendment issue, even if the issue is narrow in scope.

Not that I want one with the minefield imposed, but NJ doing non resident licenses?

When and if a statute is passed requiring the several states to treat carry permits the same way they treat driver's licenses* NJ will honor non-resident licenses. Granting its own non-resident licenses is never going to happen in NJ and I don't think any Federal law or court decision can change that.

*NB: There is no Federal requirement in re recognition of driver's licenses, not that I am aware of at any rate. The recognition is literally by an agreement between the states to do so, called the "Driver License Compact" if memory serves me correctly.

So I looked it up; I didn't want to say that incorrectly:

National Center for Interstate Compacts Database

© 2019 The Council of State Governments.

I think Georgia and Wisconsin are not included. One has to wonder why....

[Muss Muggins]

In the words of Jack Nicholson, I suggest you pick up a rifle and stand a post . . .

Originally Posted by Paul in Nevada

I don't see this as a Second Amendment issue since it has nothing to do with gun rights for the people, only special privileges for retired gov't employees.

[2ndshift]

EXACTLY! Muss Muggins could not have said it any better!

[Biggfoot44]

Yes , NJ has non resident carry permits . rare that they are . Primarily for A/ Truck and armed couriers passing thru to NYC .

[Paul in Nevada]

Originally Posted by Muss Muggins

In the words of Jack Nicholson, I suggest you pick up a rifle and stand a post . . .

I don't have to buy my rights, they were given to me by God.

And LEO's, while I respect them tremendously, are all volunteers who are paid for what they do. They aren't Knights Errant out of Camelot who battle evil strictly for the sake of goodness, eschewing all reward and subsisting on prayer and bread crusts. I think LEOSA is an awesome perk of the job and I wholeheartedly support it. But in a way it actually splits LEO's off from the rest of the 2A community. Besides LEOSA I'll give you another example. There is a continuously dwindling list of handguns available to CA residents. There are magazine caps and semi auto bans. But LE are exempt from these rules. I am sure many other states have similar exemptions. Now tell me, is that equal treatment under the law, or special privileges for an elite few? Do these special privileges de-incentivize 2A activism for LEO's? After all, they live under a different set of rules. I have a retired cop friend who served in a rough CA metropolitan PD force for many years. It made him a very cynical man. He is a strong supporter of gun rights but he doesn't really care what happens in CA any more. He has written off the entire state as lost. Oh, but he can still CCW there when he visits friends and family. He has no incentive to fight for CCW rights because he enjoys a special privilege from his former employers.
I sincerely hope LEOSA is fully restored in NJ but let's not conflate this issue with 2A rights, because that's not what is being argued here. The issue at hand is the Federal Supremacy Clause of the Constitution. The outcome of this battle will change absolutely nothing for NJ residents or people visiting from other states.

[Muss Muggins]

Duly noted. We will never agree on this issue. I wish you well . . .

Originally Posted by Paul in Nevada

I don't have to buy my rights, they were given to me by God.

And LEO's, while I respect them tremendously, are all volunteers who are paid for what they do. They aren't Knights Errant out of Camelot who battle evil strictly for the sake of goodness, eschewing all reward and subsisting on prayer and bread crusts. I think LEOSA is an awesome perk of the job and I wholeheartedly support it. But in a way it actually splits LEO's off from the rest of the 2A community. Besides LEOSA I'll give you another example. There is a continuously dwindling list of handguns available to CA residents. There are magazine caps and semi auto bans. But LE are exempt from these rules. I am sure many other states have similar exemptions. Now tell me, is that equal treatment under the law, or special privileges for an elite few? Do these special privileges de-incentivize 2A activism for LEO's? After all, they live under a different set of rules. I have a retired cop friend who served in a rough CA metropolitan PD force for many years. It made him a very cynical man. He is a strong supporter of gun rights but he doesn't really care what happens in CA any more. He has written off the entire state as lost. Oh, but he can still CCW there when he visits friends and family. He has no incentive to fight for CCW rights because he enjoys a special privilege from his former employers.
I sincerely hope LEOSA is fully restored in NJ but let's not conflate this issue with 2A rights, because that's not what is being argued here. The issue at hand is the Federal Supremacy Clause of the Constitution. The outcome of this battle will change absolutely nothing for NJ residents or people visiting from other states.

[Waldo]

Originally Posted by Paul in Nevada

I don't see this as a Second Amendment issue since it has nothing to do with gun rights for the people, only special privileges for retired gov't employees.

I signed in just to like this post. I could not agree more.

[mexicanjoe]

When you have worked undercover and have a target on your back , youll know why retired should be allowed to carry. IF the retirees can carry, then thats a foot in the door for law abiding citizens to carry! NJ has had a history of anti-gun indoctrination, its time the citizens started a push the other direction. I know a lot of people vote dem because" our family has always voted that way'. Wake up , pull your head out and turn that ship around, it takes time to change a regime mentality but it needs to start somewhere. They tried that here in Texas and it didnt work. I agree we need to buildl a wall------- around Cali and NJ.

[GaryS]

I'm not sure that it matters if you've worked undercover or spent your entire career in uniform.

Some people will hold a grudge for years and some of those people are quite willing to use violence to avenge being "wronged."

There was a whole movie about it called "High Noon."

Originally Posted by mexicanjoe

When you have worked undercover and have a target on your back , youll know why retired should be allowed to carry. IF the retirees can carry, then thats a foot in the door for law abiding citizens to carry! NJ has had a history of anti-gun indoctrination, its time the citizens started a push the other direction. I know a lot of people vote dem because" our family has always voted that way'. Wake up , pull your head out and turn that ship around, it takes time to change a regime mentality but it needs to start somewhere. They tried that here in Texas and it didnt work. I agree we need to buildl a wall------- around Cali and NJ.

[Smoke]

I believe that, as stated previously, special privileges for law enforcement disincentivizes a pro Second Amendment stance by police unions.

I wonder what would happen if American law enforcement adopted a Canadian type model. Where police officers draw their Duty Weapon from the Armory at the beginning of their shifts and and return it to the Armory at the end of their shift. And while off duty they carry under the exact same restrictions as their citizen counterparts.

I wonder what would happen if all future gun legislation had no special carve outs for law enforcement.

I wonder what would happen if the above was implemented and every cop in the nation started pressuring their unions not to support these bills.

And while we're here, this is in reply to Muss Muggins' comment about grabbing a rifle and standing a post.



I did bro, on the real wall . The exact wall that Jack Nicholson was talking about, didn't see you anywhere around.

[old tanker]

Originally Posted by WR Moore

I took two lessons away from my Constitutional Law class. The first one was don't be a test case. Even if you eventually "win", you've experienced major financial loss and aggravation as well as possible jail time. Let someone else get their name on an appellate decision.

You are right there!!!

"A New Jersey appeals court on Thursday overturned the gun possession conviction of a former federal prison officer by finding the judge at her trial failed to extend to her an exemption (LEOSA) for federal law enforcement.

The decision also overturned the sentence of Dana R. Johnson, but the Gloucester County resident has already served three years in prison."

An inept or vindictive New Jersey judge has destroyed a woman's life. Her career ended, wages and future pension lost. The ultimate irony, her conviction was overturned after she had finished her prison sentence!

One can only hope she can get some recompense, but what could possibly be adequate?

https://www.njcourts.gov/sites/defau...2/a5622-18.pdf

[Smoke]

Originally Posted by old tanker

What could possibly be adequate?

Let's start with New Jersey funds whatever retirement she would have earned at the highest level she could have achieved had she been able to keep her job for the full 20 years.

If her retirement benefits included medical New Jersey pays those too.

Then we'll go with New Jersey pays her for all lost wages, adjusted for inflation and any possible promotion she may have missed out on. Plus all holiday and overtime pay.

Then (conservatively) 2 million Bucks a year every year that she spent incarcerated.

Since it's a settlement and not income it's not taxable.

[Muss Muggins]

I’ve dealt with this a couple times in my career. All states have laws governing these circumstances. Generally capped at $50k per year. NJ is a little unusual with a “twice the earnings in the most recent full year before incarceration” or $20k, whichever is greater. Additional compensation is possible by suing the offending agency and officer, which usually results in a policy limit settlement. Most, if not all officers don’t have anything worth going after, so you’re usually stuck with the agency insurance . . .

https://www.law.umich.edu/special/ex...nceProject.pdf

Originally Posted by Smoke

Let's start with New Jersey funds whatever retirement she would have earned at the highest level she could have achieved had she been able to keep her job for the full 20 years.

If her retirement benefits included medical New Jersey pays those too.

Then we'll go with New Jersey pays her for all lost wages, adjusted for inflation and any possible promotion she may have missed out on. Plus all holiday and overtime pay.

Then (conservatively) 2 million Bucks a year every year that she spent incarcerated.

Since it's a settlement and not income it's not taxable.

[Sevens]

How do we define the terms of taking up arms and standing a post? Fact is, I do and I have. My post is small, it's merely my own castle. I expect NO HELP WHATSOEVER from paid govt boots, pretty sure that my security is 100% on me.

This includes the time that myself and my wife and two young children returned home on a Monday 1pm with groceries... to find nineteen police cars in, around and leading up to the court where my house was. And the cops on the scene sent me in to my own house to clear it without their help. They suggested that I be careful in doing so, because they had not yet captured the armed bank robber who led them on a vehicle chase and dumped his stolen car in my next door neighbor's driveway.

I didn't get paid for clearing my house that time either and dangit, I definitely cannot carry a concealed handgun in New Jersey.

[ladder13]

Originally Posted by Smoke

……….
I did bro, on the real wall . The exact wall that Jack Nicholson was talking about, didn't see you anywhere around.

That’s about the funniest thing I’ve seen here in months.

[old tanker]

Smoke, that's not enough by my reckoning, but as Muss points out, that's likely way more than New Jersey will potentially pay. Sovereign immunity and all that.

You only get to sue the King as much as he allows.

[Smoke]

Originally Posted by Sevens

How do we define the terms of taking up arms and standing a post?

In context Colonel Jessup was talking about guarding America against Communist aggression.

He even claimed that MaCaffrey "Rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom that I provide."

The funny thing is at that particular time frame there was no wall in Cuba. It was a Minefield and a barbed wire fence and what was really funny is that Cuban Nationals crossed the barbed wire fence every day to work on base.

[LVSteve]

Seems that NJ has that same disease that CA and certain other states with big populations suffer from: They are incapable of accepting federal preemption. I believe the last time this came to a head it got pretty ugly in the 1860s. Now, the debate as to whether federal preemption should ever have become a thing is an argument for somewhere else other than this forum, as laid out in The Rules.

[Muss Muggins]

It’s a movie, with no basis in fact . . .

Originally Posted by Smoke

In context Colonel Jessup was talking about guarding America against Communist aggression.

He even claimed that MaCaffrey "Rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom that I provide."

The funny thing is at that particular time frame there was no wall in Cuba. It was a Minefield and a barbed wire fence and what was really funny is that Cuban Nationals crossed the barbed wire fence every day to work on base.

[luvsmiths]

Originally Posted by Smoke

And while we're here, this is in reply to Muss Muggins' comment about grabbing a rifle and standing a post.



I did bro, on the real wall . The exact wall that Jack Nicholson was talking about, didn't see you anywhere around.

Hang on. You should be getting an answer of some sort anytime now.

[Smoke]

Originally Posted by Muss Muggins

It’s a movie, with no basis in fact . . .

I mean, at the time I'm quite sure there was a Marine Detachment at the Guantanamo Bay Naval Base and I'm sure that the Marines did guard the Border fence between Guantanamo and Cuba but from everything I've heard there was more rotten fruit flying across that border than bullets

[jdh]

Originally Posted by Smoke

I did bro, on the real wall . The exact wall that Jack Nicholson was talking about, didn't see you anywhere around.

Wasn't on the wall. I was doing my part to de-incentivize the soviet block from rolling over you. See Avatar.

[Smoke]

Originally Posted by jdh

Wasn't on the wall. I was doing my part to de-incentivize the soviet block from rolling over you. See Avatar.

Vilen Danke

[jdh]

Originally Posted by Smoke

Vilen Danke

Gern geschehen

[jdh]

Originally Posted by Smoke

Vilen Danke

Gern geschehen

Or

Bitteschön

[Tom S.]

Thread closed.

Many have wandered off the stated purpose of this section:

This forum is about ACTION that can and should be taken to protect or advance the cause of freedom.

Ideally, we should see nothing here that does not pertain directly to threats to or expansion of 2nd Amendment RIGHTS.
That means this forum is about PENDING LEGISLATION and responses from legislators or the actions of legislators or about PENDING CHANGES in carry permit laws and issues.
Court Cases directly related to the 2nd Amendment can be discussed.

Also, many have failed to follow Forum Rule #3:

3. Do NOT descend into personal attacks on a member.
Naiveté, or viewpoints different from yours are no reason to call a member an idiot or moron.
If a poster is obnoxious, report him and ignore him.
Do not feed trolls.
NO LYNCHINGS or MUGGINGS.
Learn to use the "IGNORE" feature for posters that ANNOY you. In your User CP, under Settings & Options, click Edit Ignore List.