EDITED- My Take on the Pol/2A Forum

[handejector]

8:05- Edited to add:
I have changed the Rules for the 2A forum. Please read them.
I have also deleted most of the content of this forum, and we shall try again.
The survival of this section is tenuous, at best. As stated, if it can be used for any positive purpose in preserving gun rights and advancing our political agenda as it collectively pertains to GUN RIGHTS, I can live with it.
Sorry, but the constant bickering, crying, ranting, and posturing formerly seen here simply was not worth what it was costing me.<hr class="ev_code_hr" />


Many of you probably won't see my rant, which is what it will be labeled, in the thread "A CHRISTIAN NATION", so I will post a few thoughts here.

I get the feeling this Pol/2A forum will never realize its potential.

I had envisioned it as a constructive tool to be used for pro gun issues, like warnings of pending legislation at ALL levels of government, posting email and phone numbers for legislators to be contacted on gun bills, promoting and publicizing pro-gun candidates, organizing support for the NRA and possibly other EFFECTIVE lobbyists, etc.

The smith-wessonforum.com does not exist for the purpose of changing the world or our society. It just won't happen here, folks.
Christians won't make converts here.
Atheists won't either.
Libs or Dems won't sway Republicans, and vice versa. And, NO, the Independent and Libertarian supporters won't win the next election here, either!
Get real, and get over it. The incessant crying about Obama/the Libs piloting the plane in a nose-dive to Hell is getting a little stale. Put some of that time and effort into doing something besides preaching to the choir and a few members you won't change anyway. All of us like to attend a short pity-party now and then in life, but all day, every day, is a bit much......

This Board exists for two purposes:
1. The promotion of discussion/collecting/shooting/data sharing/etc pertaining to S&W firearms, other S&W products, and company history, and
2. The preservation of the 2nd Amendment and gun rights in general.

I have often commented that The Lounge is a perk in a GUN forum. This Pol/2A forum has really become just a LOUNGE for more volatile topics.

I see no real need or reason to discuss any of the following topics on a GUN forum beyond a minimal necessity:
Abortion- none
Religion- none, beyond perhaps logical discussion of the hostilities directed against us by Islamic nations.
Racial issues- none to extremely rarely
Gay rights- none
GENERAL LEO bashing- none
GENERAL political issues- rarely
General NEWS links- very rarely

Frankly,
I feel like my money is being wasted in this particular forum (Pol/2A).
Read the above list again, and post those topics within the guidelines. In particular, the general "MSN News" and "Fox News", etc, etc links are history. The Mods and I shall start deleting most of them, and the posters will be warned. If people want to read all the stories linked to, they can go to those news sites everyday. I am not providing an ad board for news sites.

I will say that the War in Iraq and Afghanistan, and the general security of the United States can be discussed. Many of us are, or have friends and family serving our nation, and I will not cut the discussion of issues involving those all-too-often "forgotten" patriots.

Stated plainly, if this is the best we can do, bearing the expense for this section is not logical.

{4:52 PM- EDITED for spelling co-reckshuns. }
{7:12 PM- AGAIN edited for spelling co-reckshuns(kareckshins? )}

[ladder13]

10-4, heard loud and clear.

[Gun 4 Fun]

I certainly understand your feelings Lee. I will do my best to stay within the guidelines that have been layed out here-in. If I go astray from them somewhere in the future, please let me know, as I wish to fully cooperate with the forum rules.

[oldRoger]

Lee;
Guilty as charged. (Wasting band width).
It actually is a point often made in these discussions, that when anything is free we tend to use more of it. Of course there is no free lunch (or free bandwidth).
I guess more than a subscription fee for classifieds, we need one for these rants. If it was high enough we would think really hard about it before posting.

Meanwhile you see before you a repentant and reformed character.
Roger.

[Spotteddog]

Guilty as charged.
I'll re-read as needed, as often as needed and attempt not to be baited into extraneous topics.

[David LaPell]

I have a little different take on this, and please don't read into this or take it the wrong way, as I have probably been as guilty as anyone for posting more stuff that we really need to know. But I do think that this is the most dangerous time politically for gun owners, more so than any period in American history. I do think that we need to be kept informed more now than ever. I understand the bandwidth thing (what little about computers that I do know), and I can understand it is costing money. I still think that we need stay ahead of the curb when it comes to what our elected officials are doing. I will however, abide by Lee's rules since it is his house, I just think that we should all be able to be keep each other informed as to what is going on as far as gun rights is concerned, this might be best served by solid info such as links and not hearsay and third party info.

[Amici]

Originally posted by handejector:

This Board exists for two purposes:

1. The promotion of discussion/collecting/shooting/data sharing/etc pertaining to S&W firearms, other S&W products, and company history, and

2. The preservation of the 2nd Amendment and gun rights in general.

I have often commented that The Lounge is a perk in a GUN forum. This Pol/2A forum has really become just a LOUNGE for more volatile topics.

Agreed. If people want to post thread about religion, etc., there are suitable forums for them. This should not be one of them.

[Filbird]

For my part, I resolve to change (in my head) the name of this forum to the following:

Second Amendment & Related Political

You are long-suffering, sir, and I'll do my best in the future not to add to your suffering!

[Andy Griffith]

I rarely ever come into this section of the forum, simply because of the following:

A. Most of the "political" stuff posted doesn't do anything to help my digestion of what I was eating/drink'n (typically) when I set down to read The Forum.

B. Most of the "political" stuff is downright..."downing." If I read this section every day, as well as all the forwarded stuff people I know send me by e-mail, I might as well go jump off a cliff for all of "bad things" that are happening in society.

Just my take on the section and a vent myself.

You are a good man Lee, and very long-suffering.

As the "Crazy Cora" said in Quigley Down Under:
"It's quite common on a new job for things not to go well at first."

It's just a "growing pain" in the life and changes of The Forum.

[jframe]

I vote to ditch this section of the Forum. Every time I read about our current administration, it just pisses me off anyway. That's why I quit watching the news. This Forum is meant collecting S & W guns and relaxation, and a certain amount of fun! I've decided that politics certainly takes away from ALL of that. So Lee, if you want to dump this part, I'm all for it!

[ImprovedModel56Fan]

All of us like to attend a short pity-party now and then in life, but all day, every day, is a bit much......

JMO, but thanks!

Your guidelines are going to drastically limit the scope of the Pol/2A forum, but that is probably a good thing. I do enjoy discussing political issues with like-minded individuals, but commiserating has its limits.

Anyway, you're paying for it, not me.

THANKS!!!

[Smithfan]

Just a couple or three thoughts:

1. When this new section was inaugurated a while back, I wondered at the rationale for doing so. I always thought the old lounge worked just fine.

2. I, for one, enjoy the comments and insights of those who contribute on political and social topics -- both those who agree with me, and those who don't. And I have gained considerable insight from both during the nearly eight years I have been around here.

3. I, for one, enjoy most of the postings from news organizations. It's next to impossible for everyone to check everything, all the time, but most folks in fact have something to offer worth reading to many others on the Forum.

Example: The post about the $2.6 million to teach Chinese prostitutes to drink responsibly. I love these sorts of things, even when it's laughing to keep from crying, and I passed that one on to a lot of friends who all felt the same way.

Beyond all that, there is always value in seeing how the government is spending our tax money.

4. I suspect that shrinking and constricting the discussion topics ultimately will shrink and constrict total membership. It will also be a helluva a lot less funny, I think because some of the more entertaining contributors will move on (and I suspect some already have).

Another example: I laugh out loud every single time I re-read the hilarious post about the 2012 Pelosi. Every friend I've shared it with has said the same thing. Caveat: It might be a lot funnier if you're from California, 'specially northern California, where you've had a chance to see La Pelosi in action for too many years now.

5. All that said, it's a public forum, but privately owned. The owner can do with it as he wishes.

Bill
(Picks up soapbox. Leaves.)

[Wayne02]

This Board exists for two purposes:
1. The promotion of discussion/collecting/shooting/data sharing/etc pertaining to S&W firearms, other S&W products, and company history, and
2. The preservation of the 2nd Amendment and gun rights in general.

Man how I hate to be that guy who asks for clarification after posts from the boss like this, but I guess I will.

As you know, effects on our 2nd amendment rights are directly linked to the local and national politics of our country. As much as we may not want to admit it, or dislike dealing with the fact, the key to the preservation of the 2nd amendment and gun rights in general is politics, and political activism. As a group, we gun owners tend to be reactive in nature and operate from a position of defense, often falling back on the “because it says so in the 2nd amendment” when we are attacked. We tend to only get our gander up and talk about the 2A after something happens or during the time that the particular attack takes place.

I agree that the constant barrage of ‘Obama did this or that’ gets old and repetitive; I’m certainly weary of them myself. However I think there is productive need for discussions about the proactive nature of eliminating further erosion of the 2A, and maybe even enhancing its affect on our country. This inevitably comes down to discussion about politics and candidates, and for it to be proactive it should be forward focused on the upcoming elections.

My hope is discussions of this nature would be acceptable under the general assumption that electing a more 2A friendly congress, senate, and administration is our common goal as gun owners. My concern is some of these political discussions may not have a direct tie to the 2A at the given time they are being discussed, but the candidates and parties being discussed most certainly have the potential to negatively or positively affect the 2A and gun owners going forward.

For example, I started a thread to discuss the Republican parties latest stated efforts to become more ‘conservative’. While the current turmoil within the parties may not have a direct effect right now on the 2A, the candidates and the structure and direction of the party that rise from the ashes most certainly do have the potential to impact gun owners and 2A in the future. Short of taking an aggressive defensive stance when 2A issues come up, or lobbying the existing politicians towards our cause, the fact of the matter is there is not much we can do about those in office today, but there is something we can do about who gets elected in the future and I think that is an important topic to gun owners. Does this type of post fall within your guidelines or not?

I have enjoyed the addition of the political section to the S&W forums and I fully understand that politics are a contentious issue that a number of gun forums have wrestled with. However, given the direct ties between gun rights and politics, where else should politics relevant to gun ownership be discussed? I have found that the politics only discussion forums are near useless for productive discussion around a common cause, mostly because there is no common cause on the generic political forums and it ends up being a counter productive flame-fest free for all. We cannot bury our heads in the sand and ‘hope’ that the politics side of the equation takes care of itself, because in many cases it does take care of itself and not to our favor.

Finally, I am grateful for these forums, and especially appreciative of the fact that they are add free. I understand they cost money to run and rely on the volunteer time from the mods and owner to keep things humming along. Hopefully the politics section can stay, with more focused discussions, some of which are forward looking in efforts to bring more 2A/gun friendly politicians into leadership.

Thanks
Wayne

[handejector]

Wayne02 said:

Short of taking an aggressive defensive stance when 2A issues come up, or lobbying the existing politicians towards our cause, the fact of the matter is there is not much we can do about those in office today, but there is something we can do about who gets elected in the future and I think that is an important topic to gun owners. Does this type of post fall within your guidelines or not?

Wayne,
You probably type much faster than I. I suspect you read a little too fast.
Go back over my post, and see the third paragraph-
"I had envisioned it as a constructive tool to be used for pro gun issues, like warnings of pending legislation at ALL levels of government, posting email and phone numbers for legislators to be contacted on gun bills, promoting and publicizing pro-gun canddates, organizing support for the NRA and possibly other EFFECTIVE lobbyists, etc.

[Wayne02]

Originally posted by handejector:
Wayne,
You probably type much faster than I. I suspect you read a little too fast.
Go back over my post, and see the third paragraph-
"I had envisioned it as a constructive tool to be used for pro gun issues, like warnings of pending legislation at ALL levels of government, posting email and phone numbers for legislators to be contacted on gun bills, promoting and publicizing pro-gun canddates, organizing support for the NRA and possibly other EFFECTIVE lobbyists, etc.

Ok, fair enough. Thanks.

[handejector]

Originally posted by Klas:
You should chg the name of the thread to '2nd Amendment Discussion'. When I first saw 'Political & 2nd Amendment Forum', I assumed POLITICS was allowed; politics of any kind. Especially when it says in the sentence below the title, "... & POLITICAL Issues go HERE".

Already thought of that, and will do so after editing The Rules.

[Jeb Stonewall]

Well being the one that started that post,
All I got to say is that I never dreamed it would run so far off course!
Even though I helped it along.
I understand your point about the Pol/2A Forum
and agree 100%
I'll watch my P's and Q's from here on out.

[7.62foryou]

Lee how much for a spell check function?
Just kidding.

[handejector]

spale chec is frea.

[handejector]

David LaPell said:

But I do think that this is the most dangerous time politically for gun owners, more so than any period in American history. I do think that we need to be kept informed more now than ever. I understand the bandwidth thing (what little about computers that I do know), and I can understand it is costing money. I still think that we need stay ahead of the curb when it comes to what our elected officials are doing.

David,
Yiou missed the whole point. Again, see above where I said:
"I had envisioned it as a constructive tool to be used for pro gun issues, like warnings of pending legislation at ALL levels of government, posting email and phone numbers for legislators to be contacted on gun bills, promoting and publicizing pro-gun canddates, organizing support for the NRA and possibly other EFFECTIVE lobbyists, etc."
Gun rights issues is exactly what this section IS about. I just see no need for wasting the time and space on all the other UNrelated topics.

[red14]

I like everything here but the childish namecalling and occasional pettiness. But, it's your quarter. I'll fall back, regroup, and adapt.

[7.62foryou]

Originally posted by red14:
I like everything here but the childish namecalling and occasional pettiness. But, it's your quarter. I'll fall back, regroup, and adapt.

I agree with you red14 except for the childish namecalling and occasional pettiness, I always took that as a sign that I've won the argument, and usually just stopped at that point. The newest topic is almost 2 days old now. Oh well it is Lees' quarter as you say, but it was fun wile it lasted.

[bmhiii]

Originally posted by 7.62foryou:

I agree with you red14 except for the childish namecalling and occasional pettiness, I always took that as a sign that I've won the argument, and usually just stopped at that point. The newest topic is almost 2 days old now. Oh well it is Lees' quarter as you say, but it was fun wile it lasted.

It was always fun to me to read thru some of these posts, but I will certainly get by w/o them... Lee runs a good show here, I have and will continue to play nice. Thanks, Lee, and to all the mods. I know the pay is good but y'all surely have better things to do.

[Wayne02]

Originally posted by red14:
I like everything here but the childish namecalling and occasional pettiness. But, it's your quarter. I'll fall back, regroup, and adapt.

Yep, and it is always good to clarify expectations.

[glypnir]

Well, that sounds good. I'll have to come back and start reading the fourm again.

The 2nd ammendment seems to be about the only spot where I'm a member of the choir.

[photocosmo]

To our esteemed admin/owner:

I think that this is a wise move and overdue. Nobody can ever fault you for trying though, kudos and have a marvelous Memorial Weekend!
Thank you for providing this forum.

coz

[smith41mag]

I vote to ditch this section of the forum also.

[lagavulin62]

got to admit I was getting a little worn out with all the bashings but the room pretty much did get me interested in this website again. but then purchasing the "standard catalog" and two additional smith revolvers helped too. my plan was usually to check out the 2nd amendment forum, add a few comments then hit the 60's plus revolver room, but never had time for that as I was pretty much beat up after all of this. I honestly feel it has a purpose, even though it needs to be reigned in, but it certainly can be addictive.

[ChadW]

Great post. I agree with what you have to say.

The 2A posts in this section are few and far between. Most posts are anti liberal or anti Obama.

I hope more people read your post.