On Sheep, Wolves and Sheepdogs

afriqueart · #1 08-02-2009, 04:17 PM

Our Tennessee Carry Permit instructor gave us this handout. Very interesting reading.

On Sheep, Wolves and Sheepdogs

The Rabbi · #2 08-03-2009, 05:02 AM

This fits the unfortunate tendency in the gun community to see people who go armed as some kind of uber-warrior special breed of human.

I personally don't see carrying a gun as much different from carrying a spare tire, and knowing how to use it.

afriqueart · #3 08-03-2009, 06:32 AM

I was wondering what kind of response this would get.

J. Galt · #4 08-03-2009, 08:28 AM

This has been hashed over so many times you may not get the responses you were expecting.

Glock 'em down · #5 08-03-2009, 08:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Rabbi

I personally don't see carrying a gun as much different from carrying a spare tire, and knowing how to use it.

The difference is...if you carry a handgun EVERY DAY you are aware of it and you (hopefully) had some degree of training with it and you (hopefully) fire it well and often.

When is the last time you changed a tire?

Take the NASCAR pit crew for instance. They can change a tire faster than I can get my keys out of my pocket to open my car's trunk! Why? Because they do it for a living and they do it all the time.

That's the way carrying a weapon for a living is. You take it seriously and you don't just carry a gun for kicks and giggles.

A reporter bumped into Mark McGwire one time and asked him if he was nervous about chasing the home run record and if he thinks about it very often. He told the reporter that he was hitting home runs in his mind as they spoke.

The late Jeff Cooper (RIP) once said that owning a gun and not knowing how to use it is the same as owning a guitar, not knowing how to play it and calling yourself a musician.

I have had the sheepdog link posted in my signature since I discovered the internet. IMHO, it describes perfectly who and what I am.

My daughter read it and said, "I guess you gotta be thataway when you're a policeman."

I told her, "maybe I'm a policeman because I am thataway."

The Rabbi · #6 08-03-2009, 08:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by J. Galt

This has been hashed over so many times you may not get the responses you were expecting.

ALmost everything on a gun board has been hashed over many times.
Personally I find the whole mindset offensive and counter-productive to what we are trying to do. Never mind the inaccuracy of the whole description.

Quote:

The difference is...if you carry a handgun EVERY DAY you are aware of it and you (hopefully) had some degree of training with it and you (hopefully) fire it well and often.

When is the last time you changed a tire?

I've changed a tire about half a dozen times or more in my adult life. I've never had to draw my gun, much less fire it.

walnutred · #7 08-03-2009, 09:50 AM

I've been called a sheepdog, but not exactly in the same way the term is used in the article. I don't CCW to protect the sheep, I CCW to protect Mamma Sheepdog and the puppies. While Mamma Sheepdog does not CCW she does keep in practice with her 1911A1 in case she has to defend the dog house against wolves.

Glock 'em down · #8 08-03-2009, 10:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by walnutred

I've been called a sheepdog, but not exactly in the same way the term is used in the article. I don't CCW to protect the sheep, I CCW to protect Mamma Sheepdog and the puppies. While Mamma Sheepdog does not CCW she does keep in practice with her 1911A1 in case she has to defend the dog house against wolves.

Very well put sir!

ImprovedModel56Fan · #9 08-03-2009, 01:01 PM

Another vote for walnutred. Like "The Rabbi," I find the sheepdog analogy a bit overdrawn. It may be accurate in certain locales, and I see some parts of this country headed that way, but I think that there are still parts of the country where most adult males accept their responsibility, and those who can't sometimes get a helping hand or a free ride.

See signature.

Phillips7609 · #10 08-03-2009, 01:02 PM

I thought the article made perfect sense. As a matter of fact, while I was reading it I had the feeling that it was just common sense and shouldn't even need to be said. When my wife and I go out anywhere There's always a gun within reach.
Also, I had never really thought about it before, but I "look" for the BG's. For instance, before getting out of the car to go into a convenience store I make sure I have my gun on me because I may be the only one there that could make a difference if something happened.
I hope I never have to shoot anybody; but on the same token I couldn't live with myself if I stood by while others were being hurt.

ImprovedModel56Fan · #11 08-03-2009, 01:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phillips7609

When my wife and I go out anywhere There's always a gun within reach.
Also, I had never really thought about it before, but I "look" for the BG's. For instance, before getting out of the car to go into a convenience store I make sure I have my gun on me because I may be the only one there that could make a difference if something happened.
I hope I never have to shoot anybody; but on the same token I couldn't live with myself if I stood by while others were being hurt.

Agreed, but does that make you a "sheepdog?" I think it makes you a normal adult male with common sense, and it would be nice if more adult females acted the same. Hell, it would be nice if more adult males acted the same.

The Rabbi · #12 08-03-2009, 01:42 PM

Maybe we didnt read the same article.
Everything you do when you go out, I also do. I would bet most of us do. I also check my tires periodically and try to get some exercise and think twice before spending money on something. These just seem like life-skills measures.
My argument with the "sheep" metaphor is an "us and them" mentality, and an idea that we are somehow morally superior because we choose to carry.
It isn't so.

Phillips7609 · #13 08-03-2009, 01:50 PM

From Model520Fan: Agreed, but does that make you a "sheepdog?" I think it makes you a normal adult male with common sense, and it would be nice if more adult females acted the same. Hell, it would be nice if more adult males acted the same.

I see your point exactly and I agree. Our society has become so dependent and deluded that It's like a nation of ostriches with their heads in the sand.
To answer your question, no, I don't feel like a sheepdog. I just have this inner sense that those ostriches are not going to fend for themselves.
BTW....I taught my wife how to shoot and she carries a Kel-tec compact 9mm with her at all times. :-)

Phillips7609 · #14 08-03-2009, 02:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Rabbi

Maybe we didnt read the same article.
Everything you do when you go out, I also do. I would bet most of us do. I also check my tires periodically and try to get some exercise and think twice before spending money on something. These just seem like life-skills measures.
My argument with the "sheep" metaphor is an "us and them" mentality, and an idea that we are somehow morally superior because we choose to carry.
It isn't so.

That's why I said it sounded like common sense to me and shouldn't even need to be said. And I don't feel morally superior to anybody.
But I think there are those who carry guns that don't realize the responsibility that goes with it.
If I'm the only one with a gun when a BG shows up, I feel a sense of responsibility. That makes perfect sense to you and me; but there are those with guns that just carry for the sake of carrying and would stand by and let Mr. BG have his way.
That's the point I thought the article was making.

The Rabbi · #15 08-03-2009, 03:06 PM

I'm probably lacking common sense then. Because to me, my handgun is there to protect me and my family. If I can get away, I'm going to. If I can avoid drawing and/or firing, I'm going to. Other people have had the same opportunities to learn as I have. If they chose not to, that isn't my responsibility.

Phillips7609 · #16 08-03-2009, 03:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Rabbi

I'm probably lacking common sense then. Because to me, my handgun is there to protect me and my family. If I can get away, I'm going to. If I can avoid drawing and/or firing, I'm going to. Other people have had the same opportunities to learn as I have. If they chose not to, that isn't my responsibility.

Have you ever served in the military or been a LEO? Please don't take me wrong if you haven't. I'm certainly not bashing anyone or trying to display any kind of superiority. But you develop a sense of being "the protector" over a period of time in these settings. I guess some people don't understand that.
I'm not saying you should go out looking for trouble. I'm just saying that IMHO, you should be prepared to defend your family, the innocents around you and yourself. In that order.

The Rabbi · #17 08-03-2009, 04:06 PM

Never been in either. Nor is it a mindset I'd care to develop. And a good reason why I often say LEOs should never train private citizens.

jgrazjgraz · #18 08-03-2009, 04:25 PM

the only reason I can think of why some folks wont help a stranger from a BG is fear of the aftermath that comes with that..remember Bernie Getz in NY,,and he was helping himself and look what trouble he had...

if I were put in that situation, I THINK I would try to keep a level head and make the best move possible to prevent any harm to anyone +myself and family without trying to be a hero...
I basically took on this responsibility to protect me and my family, but if put into a different scenerio not being a professional LEO,,,I would probably be scared s%#t,but would do what I had to do.

The Rabbi · #19 08-03-2009, 04:52 PM

To my mind the purpose of the permit is self defense. It isn't a license to make America beautiful or clean up the mean streets. My first priority is my safety and getting home to my family. Everything else comes after that. If my intervention will help someone else, great. But that's not what I'm there for.

Phillips7609 · #20 08-03-2009, 05:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Rabbi

Never been in either. Nor is it a mindset I'd care to develop. And a good reason why I often say LEOs should never train private citizens.

But what if you were in a fast food restaurant and most of the innocents were children? Could you find a fast exit and leave them there and be able to look yourself in the mirror for the rest of your life?
I know that the laws are one sided when it comes to rights to defend, but if the good guys won't stand up, the bad guys take over.

Look at Columbine High School. If one of the students had had a gun on campus (a felony) and had taken out the BG's before they had a chance to kill all those kids, how do you think he/she would've been perceived? By the parents and community: a hero. By the law: who knows? He probably would've been indicted. But he would have the inner peace of knowing that he did all he could.

The Rabbi · #21 08-03-2009, 05:11 PM

And how would I feel when one of those little children stood up when he should have sat down and took one right in the chest, either from me or the BG? I'm as confident with my handgun as anyone, but crowds and people are unpredictable.
No, I don't have hero fantasies. I have fantasies of living to an old age with my family, freedom, and wealth intact.

Phillips7609 · #22 08-03-2009, 05:29 PM

From The Rabbi: I don't have hero fantasies. I have fantasies of living to an old age with my family, freedom, and wealth intact.

Me too! You make a good point about unpredictable crowds. I wasn't saying shoot from one side of the place to the other. And it may be a situation where you can do absolutely nothing. There's no shame in that. I'm just saying If the opportunity presents itself I sincerely hope that I have the guts to do all I can. I've never been "tested" either.
I'm not trying to gain some kind of moral superiority over you, I hope you don't take it that way.

I also agree with family first as I said in one of my previous posts.

The Rabbi · #23 08-03-2009, 05:40 PM

When guns come out things become unpredictable. And the best intentions in the world won't protect you from a DA or plaintiff's attorney intent on infringing on your freedom and wealth. That's why the gun is a last resort.

Phillips7609 · #24 08-03-2009, 06:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Rabbi

When guns come out things become unpredictable. And the best intentions in the world won't protect you from a DA or plaintiff's attorney intent on infringing on your freedom and wealth. That's why the gun is a last resort.

Okay, I think we're on the same page with most of the issues; on the others, lets just agree to disagree.
If we go any farther with this discussion we're just gonna wide up repeating things we've already posted.
I hope you didn't take anything I said the wrong way, I never meant for anything to sound disrespectful or derogatory. I understand and respect your right to your opinion.

jgrazjgraz · #25 08-03-2009, 06:31 PM

see that? settled without a gun

RDak · #26 08-04-2009, 02:59 AM

It's been my experience that alot of people, who start off as sheep, turn into sheepdogs or wolves after experiencing violence.

That's how I was. It was funny how quickly I changed. Like someone threw on a light switch. I think alot of sheep are like that once they experience violence.

ETA: I wonder how many of those Columbine kids turned into sheepdogs after their terrible experience? I'd bet quite a few have changed. And have changed for life.

Phillips7609 · #27 08-04-2009, 03:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RDak

It's been my experience that alot of people, who start off as sheep, turn into sheepdogs or wolves after experiencing violence.

That's how I was. It was funny how quickly I changed. Like someone threw on a light switch. I think alot of sheep are like that once they experience violence.

ETA: I wonder how many of those Columbine kids turned into sheepdogs after their terrible experience? I'd bet quite a few have changed. And have changed for life.

I'd bet you're exactly right. I'd also bet that some of them feel guilty for not doing "something" even though they were completely powerless. Sad.

jgrazjgraz · #28 08-04-2009, 09:44 PM

A shooting at an LA Fitness gym in Collier, Pennsylvania, killed five people and wounded up to 15, a local official says

BarbC · #29 08-05-2009, 06:33 AM

Interesting - he shot only women.

Phillips7609 · #30 08-07-2009, 04:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BarbC

Interesting - he shot only women.

That is interesting.
I read all of his journal entries from the months prior to his rampage and he didn't sound like he had any more disdain for women than he did men. In fact, he just sounded like he was aware of the fact that he didn't "fit in". No real reason for killing anybody (besides himself).

Who knows? That's why we all need to carry. Too many unpredictable crazies out there that, on the outside, appear to be normal.

The Rabbi · #31 08-07-2009, 04:46 AM

I dunno.
The article mentioned something about a Latin dance class. Does anyone need a reason greater than that??

Glock 'em down · #32 08-07-2009, 08:20 AM

Being a sheepdog is more than just packing a gun to protect you and yours. As a sheepdog, your responsibility is to all mankind - not just your family.

I became a sheepdog at an early age. I was always the guy that stood up to the bully picking on the new kid in school...I always let folks go ahead of me in the check out line and I always hold the door open for ladies.

Being a sheepdog means always being on the lookout for the wolf, but it also means having a little more heart and compassion for your fellow man thru daily activities like helping a stranded motorist on the side of the highway, approaching a soldier, offering a handshake and thanking him/her for providing you with your freedom or buying lunch for those "will work for food" guys you see on the corner.

There's lots more to being a sheepdog than just packing a gun and being vigilant.

willy · #33 08-09-2009, 11:52 PM

I can't figure if I'm a wolf or sheepdog???
I carried concealed way before it was legal.
I been in way to many situations that I could have just walked away from.
Many times I helped the wolf when he had a good reason for doing what was right.(Even though it may have been wrong,in the eyes of the law)
I have left the scene a few times before the real sheepdogs arrived.
And I've had the sheep protect me from the sheepdogs by describing me as someone that looks nothing at all like me.
It all comes down to-
I never thought of myself as a sheep
I never thought of myself as a wolf,
I never thought of myself as a sheepdog,
A lion
A tiger
A bear ,or any other animal.
I never seen a need to compare myself to some animal that was above the lesser animals.
I tried to be what my Dad taught me to be.
A MAN!
Nothing more and nothing less.

Why do some people seem to think of themselves as braver? stronger? higher morals ? more heroic?
then others?
I've seen a few heros in my life and it didn't have anything to do with the job they were paid to do.

walnutred · #34 08-10-2009, 07:27 AM

Maybe there is some subtle mental difference after all. Sunday morning I'm setting in my usual spot in church and a couple sets down beside me. He turned to me and said: I bet you like setting in this spot for the same reason we do? I laughed and said: I doubt that. He explained that they liked sitting there because it was directly under an AC vent. I just smiled but I was thinking: I'm set here because if the worst happens I have a clear field of fire covering the entrance doors and up the main aisle.

Glock 'em down · #35 08-10-2009, 10:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by walnutred

Maybe there is some subtle mental difference after all. Sunday morning I'm setting in my usual spot in church and a couple sets down beside me. He turned to me and said: I bet you like setting in this spot for the same reason we do? I laughed and said: I doubt that. He explained that they liked sitting there because it was directly under an AC vent. I just smiled but I was thinking: I'm set here because if the worst happens I have a clear field of fire covering the entrance doors and up the main aisle.

I've actually pissed off hosts/hostesses at restaurants because I've argued with them about sitting me and my family in the back of the establishment with my back against the wall. They always wanna put me in a booth in the middle of the place.

Nope. Not gonna happen.

I don't like folks sneaking up behind me and I like to see EVERYTHING going on in front of and all around me.