Back in the day, 158 LRN was in every 38- pretty much.
We all say it was bad now, but then why was it so popular?
After having shot a lot of trapped hogs with it, I cant
see how it is that bad, and I say that with all honesty.
I mean just ask Lee Harvey Oswald or the DPD officer
he shot with them-wait....they are no longer available
for comment. I am not saying they are better than HP,
but not as bad as some say.

Yes, I know all the cylinder full horror stories, but would a
bigger round have stopped them? Anybody that has any
firsthand experience please chime in. The only failure to
stop that I have had was with a 38 was with an HP! That is
where my thinking is coming from.

Go ahead and carry them then. I'll continue to use JHPs. If they don't have a disadvantage, what is to be gained by using them?

When you've got totally separate camp, such as Marshall's and Fackler's, saying that the FBI load is excellent, why waste your time with RNL? IIRC, none other than Elmer Keith said that round balls from cap and ball revolvers were better stoppers than conicals.

Or the third camp F/S?
The broad meplat fans.

There are far too many better options available today. I would only use 158gr RNL for practice.

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David
CW3 USA (Ret) 1968-1990

Everything I have ever read lately confirms that the LSWCHP is at the top of the list for a defense round in a 38 special. I carry them for defense in my model 10 and combat masterpiece. The round ball is great for practice but if my live is on the line I want the best.

The FBI has the track record.
roaddog

The 158gr RNL was called the 'widowmaker' even back then. It probably looked good , even 'politically correct' , in the policeman's belt/cartridge loops , and was probably easy to load , even under pressure. It was/is notoriously ineffective by any standards. Probably on par with the 9mm FMJ , and we all know it's reputation.

In those pre SWC or reliably expanding hollow-point days , the .44 Special's 246gr RNL , .45 ACP's 230gr FMJ and .45 Colt 255gr RNL were touted as so much better simply because they were bigger.


What hurts more? Being stabbed with a small , pointy stick , or big , blunt stick?

Any round that penetrates deeply enough in the proper place is going to work, period.

__________________
"Give me Liberty..."

if you like the 158gr LRN and do your part correctly, the job will get done.

I remember reading one study, it might have been by the U.S. Navy, that indicated the .38 RNL was a 50% one-shot stopper and the RNJ .45 ACP
was around 65%. Those were the two most prevalent rounds from the early 1900s to perhaps 1975.

I agree that it'll work fine if you place it right. Might overpenetrate. Not my first choice by any means, but I'd rather have that than a 100-gr zippity-doo-dah-fang-face-pre-fragmented-SEALTEAMSIX-DeathStar-Lazergraved-blastopoint.

Ammo has gotten better over time and the old lead RN can kill and while not as effective as a hollow point it isn't exactly useless.

While the RN will work there's no reason to select it as a load to keep in your revolver for self defense when there's much better ammo around. If that's what you have when trouble arrives just aim well and shoot as many rounds as it takes to end that trouble which goes for any type of ammo selected.

Of course the 158LRN is potentially lethal......but even back in the 1930s Hatcher was advising people to choose the Colt .38 special loading because it had a flatpoint bullet. I've shot enough animals with round nose bullets and flatnosed bullets in the same calibers and chamberings to be convinced that fat flat meplats do indeed enhance stopping power.........but I don't want to be shot with any of them.

By the way counselor,
The description was hysterical, FYI!
Well Done!

There are no magic bullets. Some days a 158 LRN stops 'em quick and some days a 158 LHP just makes 'em mad.

Be prepared to rip out their eyeballs with your bare hands if you have to...

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Centennial Every Day

You don't need much research to conclude that handguns stink for self-defense. As long as your assailant is within range a baseball bat, five iron, lug wrench or large rock are much more reliable and effective. Some years ago a local deputy was shot three times in the chest with a 44mag. He was out of the fight, but lived to tell the tale. On the other hand, accounts of one-shot kills with 32 autos are common. If you get a CNS hit you win the fight, regardless of caliber or ammo. Otherwise nobody can predict what will happen, regardless of caliber or ammo. Use whatever ammo makes you feel good.

Like others have said, the LRN will work and I've seen some very quickly fatal shootings with the load. Much of the effectiveness, relatively speaking, is that it often yaws 90 degrees during its penetration, which helps the performance somewhat. It's accurate and it's easy to load/reload into the charge holes.

The downsides are that it makes an otherwise very small permanant cavity and is horrible against hard barriers such as glass and bone, especially frontal and jaw bones. A good SWC or other flat pointed bullet will do better here and the FBI load is about as good as it gets in the .38 Special for anti-personnel use.

I talked with Dr. Vincent DiMaio in the 1970's, when Dallas PD adopted the FBI load on his recommendation.

In his tests, the RNL deposited only 74 ft. pounds of energy into his test block, gelatin, I think. The lead HP Plus P deposited over 200 ft. lbs.!

And penetration with the latter remained excellent.

Further discussions with Allan Jones, who was with the Dallas county forensics lab and later with Speer/CCI, confirmed my feeling that the lead HP is the way to go in .38 Special. Alas,few shops here stock it.

I also respect Speer's Gold Dot 125 grain JHP. It clocks over 900 FPS in a three-inch barrel, and has a very wide cavity. I have yet to find the 135 grain Short Barrel version.

When I was in the Air Force, I often carried a Colt .45 auto in part because I worried about the effectiveness of the .38 RN bullet. But some bases no longer inventoried .45's.

By the way, I was glad to see Wayne Dobbs's post. I met him once while he was with a suburban agency here, and he impressed me very favorably.
Like Stephen Camp, anything he posts is worth reading.

T-Star

One of the main reasons many police used the 158 gr. LRN round in the big citys was an old feeling that so many police officers get shot with thier OWN guns.

Chief Davis in LA and O.W. Wilson in Chicago,felt that an officer shot with his own gun would have a better chance of living when hit with a low powered 158 gr. LRN that with a more powerfull round. The same reasoning would apply to persons hit in error by police bullets.

Davis and Wilson also felt that too much "range time" made police "trigger happy", so officers going to the range maybe once a year was plenty. Lack of range time and DAO service revolvers made for cops think that thier guns were the last thing they were going use when nessessary. Luckly those days are gone.

Brian P. Kenny
SWCA # 908

Orlando W. Wilson (Chicago) was a fine man. But if that's how it unfolded, it's no wonder the FBI/Chicago load happened at the end of his tenure?

I'm not so sure Orlando W. Wilson picked the .38 RNL to protect his officers who had their guns taken away but it might be true. But I
also know he approved the .41 Magnum and I knew of one officer who
carried a Model 58 and he said no one noticed his holster had something else than the Model 10.

As to flat point effectiveness, again I remember a Navy study in which they duplicated the original 9 mm. Luger round which started life as a flat point and also at very high pressures, ensuring the Luger autoloader would work. The Navy believes it could be a very effective round.

It was so popular because it was all the factories loaded! Just like the model T was the only thing Ford built.

You don't drive a model T do you?

I am not saying LRN is best either, I am simply saying it isnt that bad. I would rather have it than some of the 110gr JHPs in a 38-I have personally seen that fail miserably. I dont carry LRN, I use either the FBI load or the 38+P+ 147 Hydras. 158 LRN is not the only 38 load the factories made, loads made in the 1950s for 38 spl included:

110 gr "Highwaypatrol" load
148 mid range and full power wadcutter
200 gr Super Police

I feel confident in using 158 grain SWC loads in the .38 Special. The old 158 grain round nose bullet wouldn't cause me much distress though if it was all that was available. Years ago I handloaded and shot a lot of the 158 grain round nose bullets as I had a ready supply of them. Loaded to standard velocities for field use, they actually seemed to be about as effective against the critters we have here in Texas as did the lead SWC version of the same weight. Lots of varmints and critters were thwacked with both styles and they always went down for the count with good hits.

Even back in the 1970s and early 1980s while I was shooting the round nose bullets regularly, the gun rags bashed them. I was a bit skeptical of such bad press. Perhaps for self defense against human assailants the round would be less effective but one must factor in marginal hits versus truly good hits and also the general effectiveness of the handgun as a defensive tool against human adversaries. There's more than the bullet shape at work in a necessary shooting.

Man, your last sentence is a great one, Bryan.

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Now go make God proud...

One thing cops do and we non-leos don't do is shoot at cars. Complaints about LRN 38s became more common during the 1920s and 1930s when autos were used in more and more crime. RNL bullets are not good against steel, but they are good penetrators against people.

__________________
I shoot, therefore I am.

I carry a lot of the Buffalo Bore 158gr. LSWCHP....they do the job....good track record.

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Semper Paratus

we have come a long way baby! lrn was about all you had at one time, yes they worked, still do but we alot better bullets now, even the cast ones

__________________
WILL WORK FOR AMMO!

I was a LEO from 69 to 78. At the start we carried LRN but soon went to .38 +P JHP. The LRN was known as the widow maker, as already mentioned, for allowing felons to continue attacking or running after being shot in many cases. An apprehended felon once told a fellow officer, after being cuffed, that he wouldn't have stopped and surrendered if the cop was carrying a .38 instead of a .357 magnum. The "magnum" in question was a Model 10 S&W with a bull barrel that looked mean at the time but was still a .38. The prisoner said "$heee-it, If I'd knowed that I could have taken a few of them". the LRN is good for target shooting but so is the wad cutter as is a pellet gun but if given a choice among todays qualty ammo I wouldn't bet my life on them.

For all you .38 Special fans, especially Snubbie people, how many of you have been in a gunfight with a .38 Special or have even talked 1/1 with someone who has. I have never been in a gunfight with a .38 because I have never carried one but I have spoken with many fellow officers who have and with one exception none ever carried a .38 again.

On the other hand I have spoken with dozens of officers who have been in shooting with 9mm, .44 Magnum, .41 Magnum and .357 Magnum and read other reports on .357 SIG and .40 S&W and none ever changed gun even when they could have.

And it isn't that the Shootees didn't die, because almost all of them did....the problem was that they didn't stop what they were doing when the officer wanted them to....like when the bullet hit. When you shoot someone you are not usually looking to kill them. What you want is instant behavior modification, and in that the .38 fails time after time...

Bob Makowski

Unless you put it in the right place, Bob. And I've seen plenty of cases in which misplaced rounds from those Kryptonite calibers you mention failed to do the trick. But believe whatever you want, SuperMan.

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Now go make God proud...

It does fail. Right along with the rest. This is because the myth of the one shot stop is just that; a myth. Handgun bullets simply do not contain instant on/off felon switches. And firing a shot and waiting to see what it does to the shootee, is a good way to get killed; not so good for a survival plan. For survival it's pop 'til they drop/shoot 'em to the ground then be prepared to shoot them some more if they continue hostile action.

For this I would not choose the RNL .38 simply because there are much better choices, even in the .38 spl.

My BUG is a .38. It is loaded with 158 gr. LSWCHP +P. I hope I never need it, but who knows. if the 25 rds of 45's from my SIG P220 or the 46 rds from my Glock 19 doesn't do the job, I'll reach for the wimpy ol' .38.

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too TOO young!!

"if the 25 rds of 45's from my SIG P220 or the 46 rds from my Glock 19 doesn't do the job..."

Whew Jessie, that's a scary thought!

Not saying and have never said that other calibers don't have "failures". What I am saying and has been proven over and over again is that the failure rate with .38s, .380s and other common MouseGuns are considerably higher than when you get into the 9mm HP and above range.

As to handgun bullets not having the ability to instantly switch-off a felon without a CNS hit, I have a whole bunch of friends who have been there and done that would would argue differently.

Bob

What has been proven over and over is that shot placement is pre-eminent, period. A 50 caliber slug in the toe is only going to make some folks mad while a 22 caliber one to the temple is enough to down almost any one.

One shot stops are uncommon. Even with the new wonder cartridge, the 40 S&W. There was a video not too long ago where a bare chested perp took one center mass and kept on coming. He walked unassisted to the ambulance!

I think a little research needs to be done on how many folks have been killed with a 38spl here in the US. I think you will find that many, many more have been stopped permanently with it over many other cartridges.

My backup, M637.

I know this is not a REAL important factor, but the .38 DOES carry a fairly heavy slug/for caliber ratio when you think about it....you can't use a 158gr. projectile in a 9mm, or a .380, or a .32....etc. I for one would not want to be hit with a 158gr. slug from ANY barrel!

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Semper Paratus

Actually I carry those in my 337-I'm SealTeamSix reserve you know.

__________________
Forum consigliere

Two weeks a year/one weekend a month!

__________________
Now go make God proud...

So what then is the 38spl FBI load?

158 grain Lead Semi-waddcutter Hollow Point +P. 850-925 fps in most 4" guns depending on the manufacturer.

Bob

Great, Just what I have

As long as one carries the +P+, gold-plated, mercury-filled version of the blastopoint, he'll be well-served.

This has got to be it:



Not much penetration but real good OSS record.



Mike

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9x19, 9x29R, 9x33R, 10x22

Bob,

I certainly do not want to get into a debate with you, but a sentence in your last paragraph bothers me. "When you shoot someone you are not usually looking to kill them."

I have no law enforcement background, so I'll get that fact out of the way. I did have a father who knew how much I liked guns and shooting in general. He taught me that the ONLY reason to pull on gun on someone was to shoot them NOW without hesitation and with every intention of killing them. His reason might mave been so that I would keep the gun in my pocket.

That's just what I was taught.

The general feeling when it comes to shooting in self-defense is that one's intent is to stop the threat, not kill the person acting out the threat. Of course, the best way to stop the person is to inflict a serious enough wound(s) that they cease what they are doing immediately. Obviously such wounds can and regularly do result in death. That is an acceptable outcome, but its not the defenders intent. The simple fact is that an instant stop that the attacker survives is just as good as an instant stop in which the attacker is killed. Whether or not the perpetrator lives or not has no real relevance to the goal at hand.

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Hello Cleveland, Rock and Roll

Sounds like you do a lot of talking.

..no, I do a lot of listening.



"I certainly do not want to get into a debate with you, but a sentence in your last paragraph bothers me. "When you shoot someone you are not usually looking to kill them."

I have no law enforcement background, so I'll get that fact out of the way. I did have a father who knew how much I liked guns and shooting in general. He taught me that the ONLY reason to pull on gun on someone was to shoot them NOW without hesitation and with every intention of killing them. His reason might may been so that I would keep the gun in my pocket."

"with every intention of killing them."...say that in court and you can end up with a murder charge. As was said above the intent is to stop the threat, not to kill the person. That is "behavior modification". As one of my instructors once put it and I often repeat... "a gun is the ultimate behavior modification tool". I added to that "death however can be a byproduct of that behavior modification".

You are probably correct in what your father was trying to impress upon you was that a) once you pull the gun you have to have justification to use it and b) once pulled you have to be willing to...which may result in the death of another.


Bob

Jim Cirillo has written about how risky it was to have 158 LRN ammo for the NYPD. He describes one situation where two officers were leaving the store where they had been set up for the stakeout squad. They only had their 5 and 6 shot revolvers when an armed robber entered the store. They emptied all 11 158 LRN into the felon and most hit him in the head. He was able to walk out of the store and even sneezed one of the bullets out of his nose. None penetrated his skull. Cirillo also wrote about the danger of that round going through the bad guy and hitting an innocent person. Cirillo made his own ammo for duty and did a lot of experimentation with bullet shape. He had the advantage of being able to check his results at autopsy. His books about the stakeout squad before it was disbanded by supervisory cowards makes for fascinating reading.