Smith & Wesson Forum

Go Back   Smith & Wesson Forum > Ammunition-Gunsmithing > Ammo
o

Notices

Ammo All Ammo Discussions Go Here


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 09-20-2009, 12:21 AM
perpster perpster is offline
Member
.45ACP Carry Ammo: Corbon 185 grain JHP +P vs. 230 grain RN FMJ? .45ACP Carry Ammo: Corbon 185 grain JHP +P vs. 230 grain RN FMJ? .45ACP Carry Ammo: Corbon 185 grain JHP +P vs. 230 grain RN FMJ? .45ACP Carry Ammo: Corbon 185 grain JHP +P vs. 230 grain RN FMJ? .45ACP Carry Ammo: Corbon 185 grain JHP +P vs. 230 grain RN FMJ?  
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 610
Likes: 0
Liked 20 Times in 13 Posts
Default .45ACP Carry Ammo: Corbon 185 grain JHP +P vs. 230 grain RN FMJ?

For a concealed carry personal defense CS45, what do you folks think of loading it with Corbon 185 grain JHP +P instead of 230 grain RN FMJ factory rounds? Go with the higher speed flying ashtrays, or the standard speed flying gumdrops? Anticipated aggresors would be 2 legged, or possibly 4 legged canine.
__________________
NRA Life Member
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 09-20-2009, 12:31 AM
James NM James NM is offline
Member
.45ACP Carry Ammo: Corbon 185 grain JHP +P vs. 230 grain RN FMJ?  
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: New Mexico
Posts: 147
Likes: 0
Liked 13 Times in 5 Posts
Default

My personal preference is to go with the lighter bullet weights with the shorter barrel lengths.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 09-20-2009, 01:45 AM
flop-shank flop-shank is offline
US Veteran
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: The Rust Belt Buckle/Mich
Posts: 2,382
Likes: 0
Liked 41 Times in 32 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by James NM View Post
My personal preference is to go with the lighter bullet weights with the shorter barrel lengths.
+1, and bullets that may expand are better than those that never will, provideed they're not too light.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 09-20-2009, 05:25 AM
LoboGunLeather's Avatar
LoboGunLeather LoboGunLeather is offline
US Veteran
.45ACP Carry Ammo: Corbon 185 grain JHP +P vs. 230 grain RN FMJ? .45ACP Carry Ammo: Corbon 185 grain JHP +P vs. 230 grain RN FMJ? .45ACP Carry Ammo: Corbon 185 grain JHP +P vs. 230 grain RN FMJ? .45ACP Carry Ammo: Corbon 185 grain JHP +P vs. 230 grain RN FMJ? .45ACP Carry Ammo: Corbon 185 grain JHP +P vs. 230 grain RN FMJ?  
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Colorado
Posts: 7,518
Likes: 19,273
Liked 32,340 Times in 5,474 Posts
Default

Pistol type? Fixed or adjustable sights?

Lighter bullets at significantly higher velocities will frequently shoot quite low (compared to point of aim). Most fixed sight handguns are regulated for "standard" ammunition in the caliber chambered. In .45 ACP that usually means 230-grain bullets.

Before relying upon the 185-grain loads, make a trip to the range. Check point of impact, as compared to point of aim. Also, run two or three magazines full through the pistol (from each magazine you will be using) to make sure that the ammunition will feed, fire, extract, and eject reliably.

The differences between high velocity hollow points and low velocity hardball can be argued forever. But, the bullet that hits the target is the one that ends the fight. Reliability and accuracy are the gold standard; everything else is a **** shoot.
__________________
Life of the party until 8:00PM
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 09-20-2009, 07:35 AM
WR Moore WR Moore is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 6,580
Likes: 1,787
Liked 5,342 Times in 2,685 Posts
Default

The real short barrel pistols have issues. You're losing velocity, if you go to lighter bullets to try to get the velocity back, you're losing sectional density/penetration.

Lobo's got an excellent point about the sights. Cor-Bons got a 230 gr JHP load that should provide decent penetraton and might still expand. I expect their 185 gr DPX would do very well, but you're into the POA/POI issue again, plus it's pricy. I wouldn't carry hardball.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 09-20-2009, 09:38 AM
jimmyj's Avatar
jimmyj jimmyj is offline
Member
.45ACP Carry Ammo: Corbon 185 grain JHP +P vs. 230 grain RN FMJ? .45ACP Carry Ammo: Corbon 185 grain JHP +P vs. 230 grain RN FMJ? .45ACP Carry Ammo: Corbon 185 grain JHP +P vs. 230 grain RN FMJ? .45ACP Carry Ammo: Corbon 185 grain JHP +P vs. 230 grain RN FMJ? .45ACP Carry Ammo: Corbon 185 grain JHP +P vs. 230 grain RN FMJ?  
Join Date: May 2003
Location: DUNNELLON, FLORIDA USA
Posts: 11,102
Likes: 1,690
Liked 16,301 Times in 4,231 Posts
Default

Hi:
When I was carrying a M4506 for "On Duty" and a M4516 for "Off Duty"
I used Federal 230gr Hydro-shoc or Winchester Silver-tips.
Jimmy
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 09-20-2009, 03:12 PM
flop-shank flop-shank is offline
US Veteran
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: The Rust Belt Buckle/Mich
Posts: 2,382
Likes: 0
Liked 41 Times in 32 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by WR Moore View Post
The real short barrel pistols have issues. You're losing velocity, if you go to lighter bullets to try to get the velocity back, you're losing sectional density/penetration.
Penetration may be fine if the bullet is designed right. Example; in .380 gelatin testing, the 90 gr. Speer Gold Dot and Hornady XTP expand, but are engineered so that they only mushroom out to ~ .45", the Remington Golden Sabre gets much bigger, over .6". The Golden Sabre puts on the brakes much harder and is a shallow penetrator (I want to say ~ 9", IIRC), but the Gold Dot and XTP can expand and reach depths of over 12" deep. If such a bullet exists in .45 ACP I don't know, but I would be willing to bet someone has done it. Speer, I'm sure, makes a short barrel .45. That would seem to me a logical place to start one's ammo selection.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 03-31-2012, 11:04 AM
LOBO's Avatar
LOBO LOBO is offline
SWCA Member
.45ACP Carry Ammo: Corbon 185 grain JHP +P vs. 230 grain RN FMJ? .45ACP Carry Ammo: Corbon 185 grain JHP +P vs. 230 grain RN FMJ? .45ACP Carry Ammo: Corbon 185 grain JHP +P vs. 230 grain RN FMJ? .45ACP Carry Ammo: Corbon 185 grain JHP +P vs. 230 grain RN FMJ? .45ACP Carry Ammo: Corbon 185 grain JHP +P vs. 230 grain RN FMJ?  
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Mississippi
Posts: 2,062
Likes: 1,112
Liked 1,865 Times in 440 Posts
Default

A lot can be learned from Doc Roberts over on M4carbine.net

Take a look here...

Thoughts on Service Pistols, along with Duty and Self-Defense Ammo Recommendations - M4Carbine.net Forums

From his testing these loads are my choice in .45 acp chambered guns.

Federal 230 gr HST or 230 gr HST +P
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 04-02-2012, 08:01 PM
Stu Honea's Avatar
Stu Honea Stu Honea is offline
Member
.45ACP Carry Ammo: Corbon 185 grain JHP +P vs. 230 grain RN FMJ? .45ACP Carry Ammo: Corbon 185 grain JHP +P vs. 230 grain RN FMJ? .45ACP Carry Ammo: Corbon 185 grain JHP +P vs. 230 grain RN FMJ? .45ACP Carry Ammo: Corbon 185 grain JHP +P vs. 230 grain RN FMJ? .45ACP Carry Ammo: Corbon 185 grain JHP +P vs. 230 grain RN FMJ?  
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Northwest Georgia
Posts: 832
Likes: 276
Liked 335 Times in 182 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by LOBO View Post
A lot can be learned from Doc Roberts over on M4carbine.net

Take a look here...

Thoughts on Service Pistols, along with Duty and Self-Defense Ammo Recommendations - M4Carbine.net Forums

From his testing these loads are my choice in .45 acp chambered guns.

Federal 230 gr HST or 230 gr HST +P
I prefer 230gr.HST standard pressure even in a four inch barrel.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 100_0623.jpg (57.4 KB, 175 views)
__________________
Blessed be the Lord,my Rock
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 04-02-2012, 08:39 PM
Real Sniper's Avatar
Real Sniper Real Sniper is offline
US Veteran
.45ACP Carry Ammo: Corbon 185 grain JHP +P vs. 230 grain RN FMJ? .45ACP Carry Ammo: Corbon 185 grain JHP +P vs. 230 grain RN FMJ? .45ACP Carry Ammo: Corbon 185 grain JHP +P vs. 230 grain RN FMJ? .45ACP Carry Ammo: Corbon 185 grain JHP +P vs. 230 grain RN FMJ? .45ACP Carry Ammo: Corbon 185 grain JHP +P vs. 230 grain RN FMJ?  
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Colorado
Posts: 28
Likes: 0
Liked 4 Times in 4 Posts
Default

Used to carry Hydra-Shok, but now prefer 230 gr Remington Golden Saber JHP.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #11  
Old 04-02-2012, 08:46 PM
JohnK JohnK is offline
US Veteran
.45ACP Carry Ammo: Corbon 185 grain JHP +P vs. 230 grain RN FMJ? .45ACP Carry Ammo: Corbon 185 grain JHP +P vs. 230 grain RN FMJ? .45ACP Carry Ammo: Corbon 185 grain JHP +P vs. 230 grain RN FMJ? .45ACP Carry Ammo: Corbon 185 grain JHP +P vs. 230 grain RN FMJ? .45ACP Carry Ammo: Corbon 185 grain JHP +P vs. 230 grain RN FMJ?  
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Tennessee., USA
Posts: 749
Likes: 2
Liked 384 Times in 170 Posts
Default

This is pretty simple.

Hard ball, and round nose lead, are LOUSY stoppers, and transmit little energy into the perp.

You will wound the tree, or bystanders, behind the bad guy.

Expanding/fragmenting bullets work.

I was going to leave the .45/9mm/.40 argument alone, but again, hard ball is lousy for human targets. ALL calibers.

I am not talking about shooting moose, elk, or brown bears, another completely different topic.
__________________
NRA Instructor
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 04-02-2012, 08:51 PM
Ky Bob's Avatar
Ky Bob Ky Bob is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Bluegrass State
Posts: 499
Likes: 9
Liked 29 Times in 18 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnK View Post
I was going to leave the .45/9mm/.40 argument alone, but again, hard ball is lousy for human targets. ALL calibers.
I agree with John. I personally would go with a 185gr Bullet like the Winchester Ranger- T Series or Federal's HST bullet.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 04-13-2012, 10:34 PM
Flathead Flathead is offline
Member
.45ACP Carry Ammo: Corbon 185 grain JHP +P vs. 230 grain RN FMJ? .45ACP Carry Ammo: Corbon 185 grain JHP +P vs. 230 grain RN FMJ?  
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Nevada
Posts: 155
Likes: 2
Liked 67 Times in 42 Posts
Default

I have two 1911's and from what I have read the 1911 was designed to shoot ball type ammunition. I can't get HP ammo to feed reliably so all I have is ball type ammo which chamber flawlessly. Why are all ball type described as target rounds? A 230 gr projectile traveling at 890 fps and 400 + ft lbs of muzzle energy is NOT enough for self defense? What am I missing? HP's do not consistently expand according to many ballisticians. So, other than for marketing purposes, why the hype? We all know shot placement is key.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 04-14-2012, 01:36 AM
Pote Pote is offline
Member
.45ACP Carry Ammo: Corbon 185 grain JHP +P vs. 230 grain RN FMJ? .45ACP Carry Ammo: Corbon 185 grain JHP +P vs. 230 grain RN FMJ? .45ACP Carry Ammo: Corbon 185 grain JHP +P vs. 230 grain RN FMJ? .45ACP Carry Ammo: Corbon 185 grain JHP +P vs. 230 grain RN FMJ? .45ACP Carry Ammo: Corbon 185 grain JHP +P vs. 230 grain RN FMJ?  
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: NE Ohio
Posts: 219
Likes: 109
Liked 82 Times in 42 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Flathead View Post
I have two 1911's and from what I have read the 1911 was designed to shoot ball type ammunition. I can't get HP ammo to feed reliably so all I have is ball type ammo which chamber flawlessly. Why are all ball type described as target rounds? A 230 gr projectile traveling at 890 fps and 400 + ft lbs of muzzle energy is NOT enough for self defense? What am I missing? HP's do not consistently expand according to many ballisticians. So, other than for marketing purposes, why the hype? We all know shot placement is key.

reread post #11. FWIW, all my 1911's (and have many) eat any and every JHP reliably. You need to get some work done on yours. The 1911 was designed 100 years ago before there was such a thing as hollow point. Todays 1911s are a different animal in that respect. And its certainly NOT hype when it comes to quality proven JHP ammo. Ball which doesn't expand cannot hold a candle to expanding ammo of today for stopping ability....and yes, shot placement is key when all is said and done - if one is able to guarantee it. A guarantee may not come however.
__________________
God Bless Our Troops.

Last edited by Pote; 04-14-2012 at 01:39 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 04-14-2012, 05:34 AM
ikor ikor is offline
Member
.45ACP Carry Ammo: Corbon 185 grain JHP +P vs. 230 grain RN FMJ? .45ACP Carry Ammo: Corbon 185 grain JHP +P vs. 230 grain RN FMJ?  
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Florida
Posts: 693
Likes: 122
Liked 187 Times in 114 Posts
Default

Of the two choices you posted, I would find some CorBon DPX 185 JHP loads and use them. The standard 185 JP bullet they use is prone to under penetrate...not so the Barnes all copper bullet used in their DPX load. Otherwise, what LOBO said...
__________________
Run Fast, Bite Hard!
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 04-14-2012, 06:42 AM
dinooch dinooch is offline
Member
.45ACP Carry Ammo: Corbon 185 grain JHP +P vs. 230 grain RN FMJ? .45ACP Carry Ammo: Corbon 185 grain JHP +P vs. 230 grain RN FMJ? .45ACP Carry Ammo: Corbon 185 grain JHP +P vs. 230 grain RN FMJ? .45ACP Carry Ammo: Corbon 185 grain JHP +P vs. 230 grain RN FMJ? .45ACP Carry Ammo: Corbon 185 grain JHP +P vs. 230 grain RN FMJ?  
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 156
Likes: 7
Liked 63 Times in 26 Posts
Default

If feeding is an issue in a 1911 Corbon "Pow R Ball" is the load to carry. It's a JHP with a nylon ball on the tip. They look like a Glaser Safety Slug. I also find 230gr Hydrashocks feed 100% due to the rounded profile. I carry the Corbons in my Colt Lightweight Officers ACP backed up with a magazine or 2 of ball. All Wilson Combat mags of course.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 04-14-2012, 10:35 AM
amd6547 amd6547 is offline
Member
.45ACP Carry Ammo: Corbon 185 grain JHP +P vs. 230 grain RN FMJ? .45ACP Carry Ammo: Corbon 185 grain JHP +P vs. 230 grain RN FMJ? .45ACP Carry Ammo: Corbon 185 grain JHP +P vs. 230 grain RN FMJ? .45ACP Carry Ammo: Corbon 185 grain JHP +P vs. 230 grain RN FMJ? .45ACP Carry Ammo: Corbon 185 grain JHP +P vs. 230 grain RN FMJ?  
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: North Coast of Ohio
Posts: 499
Likes: 0
Liked 117 Times in 55 Posts
Default

For all intents and purposes, CorBon magic bullets simply does not exist for me. I just can not afford $1 plus per shot, nor would I be comfortable shooting a couple and then relying on it for carry.
I use Winchester personal protection old school 230gn JHP in both my Glock 30 and Norinco 1911. It feeds perfectly in both, and is accurate.
I would not feel underarmed with a decent 230gn FMJ, though.
Frankly, I am astounded at the prices for some SD ammo. I don't believe the price has anything to do with the cost of r&d or production...just what the market will bear.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 04-14-2012, 12:08 PM
REM 3200's Avatar
REM 3200 REM 3200 is offline
US Veteran
.45ACP Carry Ammo: Corbon 185 grain JHP +P vs. 230 grain RN FMJ? .45ACP Carry Ammo: Corbon 185 grain JHP +P vs. 230 grain RN FMJ? .45ACP Carry Ammo: Corbon 185 grain JHP +P vs. 230 grain RN FMJ? .45ACP Carry Ammo: Corbon 185 grain JHP +P vs. 230 grain RN FMJ? .45ACP Carry Ammo: Corbon 185 grain JHP +P vs. 230 grain RN FMJ?  
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Biloxi, Mississippi
Posts: 2,022
Likes: 9,101
Liked 3,216 Times in 1,123 Posts
Default

Solve the problem -- Speer 230 grain Gold Dot short barrel JHP.
__________________
CSM, U S Army(Ret) 1963-1990
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 04-14-2012, 12:29 PM
OK Hog Shooter's Avatar
OK Hog Shooter OK Hog Shooter is offline
Member
.45ACP Carry Ammo: Corbon 185 grain JHP +P vs. 230 grain RN FMJ? .45ACP Carry Ammo: Corbon 185 grain JHP +P vs. 230 grain RN FMJ? .45ACP Carry Ammo: Corbon 185 grain JHP +P vs. 230 grain RN FMJ? .45ACP Carry Ammo: Corbon 185 grain JHP +P vs. 230 grain RN FMJ? .45ACP Carry Ammo: Corbon 185 grain JHP +P vs. 230 grain RN FMJ?  
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Central OK
Posts: 2,327
Likes: 610
Liked 420 Times in 263 Posts
Default

Just thinkin... if l'm the bad guy.... I'd just as soon not get shot with either round! I guess the reasoning for these rounds, maybe with exception of FTF and FTE, would also hold up for the 25s and 625s? At any rate, good thread with good information and good opinions.
__________________
Isaiah 55:8-9
Phil. 4:13
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 04-14-2012, 04:17 PM
LOBO's Avatar
LOBO LOBO is offline
SWCA Member
.45ACP Carry Ammo: Corbon 185 grain JHP +P vs. 230 grain RN FMJ? .45ACP Carry Ammo: Corbon 185 grain JHP +P vs. 230 grain RN FMJ? .45ACP Carry Ammo: Corbon 185 grain JHP +P vs. 230 grain RN FMJ? .45ACP Carry Ammo: Corbon 185 grain JHP +P vs. 230 grain RN FMJ? .45ACP Carry Ammo: Corbon 185 grain JHP +P vs. 230 grain RN FMJ?  
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Mississippi
Posts: 2,062
Likes: 1,112
Liked 1,865 Times in 440 Posts
Default

The following is from the link that I posted above. *It is from Doctor Gary K. Roberts. He shares some of his findings/information and answers questions at,

Terminal Ballistic Information - M4Carbine.net Forums

*Per Doc GKR the following loads are in no particular order.

.45 ACP:

Barnes XPB 185 gr JHP (copper bullet)
Federal HST 230 gr JHP (P45HST2)
Federal HST 230 gr +P JHP (P45HST1)
Federal Tactical 230 gr JHP (LE45T1)
Speer Gold Dot 230 gr JHP
Speer Gold Dot 230 gr +P JHP
Winchester Ranger-T 230 gr JHP (RA45T)
Winchester Ranger-T 230 gr +P JHP (RA45TP)

Notes:
-- Obviously, clone loads using the same bullet at the same velocity work equally well (ie. Black Hills ammo using Gold Dot bullets, Corbon loads using Barnes XPB bullets, etc…)

-- Bullet designs like the Silver Tip, Hydra-Shok, and Black Talon were state of the art 15 or 20 years ago. These older bullets tend to plug up and act like FMJ projectiles when shot through heavy clothing; they also often have significant degradation in terminal performance after first passing through intermediate barriers. Modern ammunition which has been designed for robust expansion against clothing and intermediate barriers is significantly superior to the older designs. The bullets in the Federal Classic and Hydrashok line are outperformed by other ATK products such as the Federal Tactical and HST, as well as the Speer Gold Dot; likewise Winchester Ranger Talons are far superior to the old Black Talons or civilian SXT's.

Last edited by LOBO; 04-14-2012 at 06:55 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 04-14-2012, 06:51 PM
papajohn428's Avatar
papajohn428 papajohn428 is offline
Member
.45ACP Carry Ammo: Corbon 185 grain JHP +P vs. 230 grain RN FMJ? .45ACP Carry Ammo: Corbon 185 grain JHP +P vs. 230 grain RN FMJ? .45ACP Carry Ammo: Corbon 185 grain JHP +P vs. 230 grain RN FMJ? .45ACP Carry Ammo: Corbon 185 grain JHP +P vs. 230 grain RN FMJ? .45ACP Carry Ammo: Corbon 185 grain JHP +P vs. 230 grain RN FMJ?  
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Coastal Missouri
Posts: 1,898
Likes: 899
Liked 977 Times in 467 Posts
Default

Speer Gold Dot Short Barrel load if you can find it..........or this, if heavy clothing isn't an issue.

Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 04-14-2012, 07:53 PM
andyo5's Avatar
andyo5 andyo5 is offline
Member
.45ACP Carry Ammo: Corbon 185 grain JHP +P vs. 230 grain RN FMJ?  
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Oro Valley, Arizona
Posts: 2,370
Likes: 497
Liked 943 Times in 518 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by perpster View Post
For a concealed carry personal defense CS45, what do you folks think of loading it with Corbon 185 grain JHP +P instead of 230 grain RN FMJ factory rounds? Go with the higher speed flying ashtrays, or the standard speed flying gumdrops? Anticipated aggresors would be 2 legged, or possibly 4 legged canine.
I'd go with a JHP round instead of a FMJ round for carry. The reasons are:
1. JHP rounds are designed to expend all their energy in the first target they hit, which means more incapacitation to your antagonist. It it not likely to hit a body and exit the other side. So it is much less likely to strike a bystander standing behind your target.
2. FMJ rounds were designed for military use, where you are shooting at enemy soldiers and if the round goes through the first target to strike another target, so much the better. It is also more likely to wound rather than kill outright, so more enemy soldiers will attempt to rescue their hollering comrade. When they try, you will have more targets to shoot at.

I would definitely not choose FMJ rounds for self protection. Maybe I'd have a spare mag with them, but the gun would be loaded with JHP rounds.
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 04-14-2012, 08:36 PM
CTG_COLLECTOR CTG_COLLECTOR is offline
Member
.45ACP Carry Ammo: Corbon 185 grain JHP +P vs. 230 grain RN FMJ? .45ACP Carry Ammo: Corbon 185 grain JHP +P vs. 230 grain RN FMJ? .45ACP Carry Ammo: Corbon 185 grain JHP +P vs. 230 grain RN FMJ? .45ACP Carry Ammo: Corbon 185 grain JHP +P vs. 230 grain RN FMJ? .45ACP Carry Ammo: Corbon 185 grain JHP +P vs. 230 grain RN FMJ?  
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 620
Likes: 79
Liked 282 Times in 164 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Flathead View Post
I have two 1911's and from what I have read the 1911 was designed to shoot ball type ammunition. I can't get HP ammo to feed reliably so all I have is ball type ammo which chamber flawlessly. Why are all ball type described as target rounds? A 230 gr projectile traveling at 890 fps and 400 + ft lbs of muzzle energy is NOT enough for self defense? What am I missing? HP's do not consistently expand according to many ballisticians. So, other than for marketing purposes, why the hype? We all know shot placement is key.
What you are missing is the fact that ball or solid non-HP bullets in service calibers ALL have a a record of dangerous overpenetration in soft tissue. And even some heavy-for-caliber JHP bullets have a history of non-expansion overpenetration.

As a side note, we all know that shot placement is King, but unless you train nearly every day like many of the "High Speed Low Drag" special operators throughout the world, when you are confronted with a life or death, fight or flight situation, real shot placement goes out the window.
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 04-14-2012, 08:53 PM
Old Corp's Avatar
Old Corp Old Corp is offline
Member
.45ACP Carry Ammo: Corbon 185 grain JHP +P vs. 230 grain RN FMJ? .45ACP Carry Ammo: Corbon 185 grain JHP +P vs. 230 grain RN FMJ? .45ACP Carry Ammo: Corbon 185 grain JHP +P vs. 230 grain RN FMJ? .45ACP Carry Ammo: Corbon 185 grain JHP +P vs. 230 grain RN FMJ? .45ACP Carry Ammo: Corbon 185 grain JHP +P vs. 230 grain RN FMJ?  
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Coastal NC
Posts: 2,936
Likes: 2,339
Liked 4,673 Times in 1,599 Posts
Default

Well, as far as addressing the 'lack of positive expansion', I can say that the duty load chosen by the PD I retired from was the Speer 230 gr. GDHP.
In over a dozen OIS incidents using the CS45 as well as full size 4566's, the M.E. always removed fully expanded bullets. Always.

That was good enough for me. Still carry the round in 3", 4.25" and 5" guns.
__________________
Ret'd LEO
SWCA #2275
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 04-14-2012, 09:11 PM
ColColt's Avatar
ColColt ColColt is offline
Member
.45ACP Carry Ammo: Corbon 185 grain JHP +P vs. 230 grain RN FMJ? .45ACP Carry Ammo: Corbon 185 grain JHP +P vs. 230 grain RN FMJ? .45ACP Carry Ammo: Corbon 185 grain JHP +P vs. 230 grain RN FMJ? .45ACP Carry Ammo: Corbon 185 grain JHP +P vs. 230 grain RN FMJ? .45ACP Carry Ammo: Corbon 185 grain JHP +P vs. 230 grain RN FMJ?  
Join Date: May 2010
Location: TN
Posts: 1,299
Likes: 27
Liked 284 Times in 131 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by REM 3200 View Post
Solve the problem -- Speer 230 grain Gold Dot short barrel JHP.
+1

...or the HST 230 gr
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 04-14-2012, 09:14 PM
StatesRightist StatesRightist is offline
Banned
.45ACP Carry Ammo: Corbon 185 grain JHP +P vs. 230 grain RN FMJ? .45ACP Carry Ammo: Corbon 185 grain JHP +P vs. 230 grain RN FMJ? .45ACP Carry Ammo: Corbon 185 grain JHP +P vs. 230 grain RN FMJ? .45ACP Carry Ammo: Corbon 185 grain JHP +P vs. 230 grain RN FMJ? .45ACP Carry Ammo: Corbon 185 grain JHP +P vs. 230 grain RN FMJ?  
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: South
Posts: 1,810
Likes: 2,026
Liked 1,451 Times in 555 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Flathead View Post
I have two 1911's and from what I have read the 1911 was designed to shoot ball type ammunition. I can't get HP ammo to feed reliably so all I have is ball type ammo which chamber flawlessly. Why are all ball type described as target rounds? A 230 gr projectile traveling at 890 fps and 400 + ft lbs of muzzle energy is NOT enough for self defense? What am I missing? HP's do not consistently expand according to many ballisticians. So, other than for marketing purposes, why the hype? We all know shot placement is key.
Hard ball is not useless, it's a fair stopper, around 65% if you buy some theories. However, 230 HP is a low 90's stopper. This is of course assuming correct shot placement. As others have mentioned, pass through is a huge issue with ball. Use the Pow'r Ball as others have said, it will solve you feeding issue and give you the benefits of a better round.

Consistent expansion in 230gr .45 round is a given with modern ammo. There is nothing wrong with the DPX as well, it's a good load. ASYM has a good copper load as well. My .45's are loaded with Fed HST LE's for 4-5 inch barrels and +P 230 Ranger T's for short barrels. I have no worries about these doing the job.
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 04-14-2012, 10:38 PM
Flathead Flathead is offline
Member
.45ACP Carry Ammo: Corbon 185 grain JHP +P vs. 230 grain RN FMJ? .45ACP Carry Ammo: Corbon 185 grain JHP +P vs. 230 grain RN FMJ?  
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Nevada
Posts: 155
Likes: 2
Liked 67 Times in 42 Posts
Default

I was looking through my ammo safe and found a box of Pow'RBall I must have purchased in another life. I'll give it a shot. (pun intended) Thanks for all the replies.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #28  
Old 04-15-2012, 11:20 AM
S.B.'s Avatar
S.B. S.B. is offline
Member
.45ACP Carry Ammo: Corbon 185 grain JHP +P vs. 230 grain RN FMJ? .45ACP Carry Ammo: Corbon 185 grain JHP +P vs. 230 grain RN FMJ? .45ACP Carry Ammo: Corbon 185 grain JHP +P vs. 230 grain RN FMJ? .45ACP Carry Ammo: Corbon 185 grain JHP +P vs. 230 grain RN FMJ? .45ACP Carry Ammo: Corbon 185 grain JHP +P vs. 230 grain RN FMJ?  
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 1,618
Likes: 49
Liked 721 Times in 369 Posts
Default

Thanx but, I'll stay with proven results and feeding of my 230 grain full metal jacket.
Steve
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 04-15-2012, 11:25 AM
S.B.'s Avatar
S.B. S.B. is offline
Member
.45ACP Carry Ammo: Corbon 185 grain JHP +P vs. 230 grain RN FMJ? .45ACP Carry Ammo: Corbon 185 grain JHP +P vs. 230 grain RN FMJ? .45ACP Carry Ammo: Corbon 185 grain JHP +P vs. 230 grain RN FMJ? .45ACP Carry Ammo: Corbon 185 grain JHP +P vs. 230 grain RN FMJ? .45ACP Carry Ammo: Corbon 185 grain JHP +P vs. 230 grain RN FMJ?  
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 1,618
Likes: 49
Liked 721 Times in 369 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnK View Post
This is pretty simple.

Hard ball, and round nose lead, are LOUSY stoppers, and transmit little energy into the perp.

You will wound the tree, or bystanders, behind the bad guy.

Expanding/fragmenting bullets work.

I was going to leave the .45/9mm/.40 argument alone, but again, hard ball is lousy for human targets. ALL calibers.

I am not talking about shooting moose, elk, or brown bears, another completely different topic.
Hmmmm, must be why military stayed with it soo long? This statement really show immaturity.
There is no know handgun round that will stop an attacker, first shot, every time!
Steve

Last edited by S.B.; 04-15-2012 at 11:31 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 04-15-2012, 11:40 AM
StatesRightist StatesRightist is offline
Banned
.45ACP Carry Ammo: Corbon 185 grain JHP +P vs. 230 grain RN FMJ? .45ACP Carry Ammo: Corbon 185 grain JHP +P vs. 230 grain RN FMJ? .45ACP Carry Ammo: Corbon 185 grain JHP +P vs. 230 grain RN FMJ? .45ACP Carry Ammo: Corbon 185 grain JHP +P vs. 230 grain RN FMJ? .45ACP Carry Ammo: Corbon 185 grain JHP +P vs. 230 grain RN FMJ?  
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: South
Posts: 1,810
Likes: 2,026
Liked 1,451 Times in 555 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by S.B. View Post
Hmmmm, must be why military stayed with it soo long? This statement really show immaturity.
There is no know handgun round that will stop an attacker, first shot, every time!
Steve
Hollow points are a violation of Geneva Convention..but only since 1949.
Reply With Quote
  #31  
Old 04-15-2012, 11:55 AM
rbh350 rbh350 is offline
Member
.45ACP Carry Ammo: Corbon 185 grain JHP +P vs. 230 grain RN FMJ? .45ACP Carry Ammo: Corbon 185 grain JHP +P vs. 230 grain RN FMJ? .45ACP Carry Ammo: Corbon 185 grain JHP +P vs. 230 grain RN FMJ? .45ACP Carry Ammo: Corbon 185 grain JHP +P vs. 230 grain RN FMJ? .45ACP Carry Ammo: Corbon 185 grain JHP +P vs. 230 grain RN FMJ?  
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Northeast, OH
Posts: 39
Likes: 5
Liked 7 Times in 5 Posts
Talking Ball ammo

You threw this question out there so here is my take.

I carried a .45 Colt daily for well over 20 years. The department I retired from did an exhaustive study for duty ammo. We carried Winchester 230 gr. black talons and the department currently issues to all personnel Winchester Ranger T-series 230 gr. jacketed hollow points.

I shoot ball ammo all the time for practice but..... never for personal protection. Using an expanding bullet, a flying ash can, it will open to something like .72 caliber, I like that......

Just saying........Good luck, Bob
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old 04-15-2012, 12:42 PM
bennettfam bennettfam is offline
Member
.45ACP Carry Ammo: Corbon 185 grain JHP +P vs. 230 grain RN FMJ? .45ACP Carry Ammo: Corbon 185 grain JHP +P vs. 230 grain RN FMJ? .45ACP Carry Ammo: Corbon 185 grain JHP +P vs. 230 grain RN FMJ? .45ACP Carry Ammo: Corbon 185 grain JHP +P vs. 230 grain RN FMJ? .45ACP Carry Ammo: Corbon 185 grain JHP +P vs. 230 grain RN FMJ?  
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Upstate California
Posts: 491
Likes: 5
Liked 27 Times in 22 Posts
Default

.45 is better than 9mm, .45 hp is better than .45 ball, .44 mag is better than .45 hp, 12 gauge shotgun is better than .44 mag. Somewhere you need to stop and accept what is a reasonable defense round that works for you.

I think .45 ball is worth the trade-off I get with flawless feeding in my old slabsides, but if you can achieve that reliability with hp ammo in your gun then good for you. We are both going to be better armed than the guy with the .32 or .380 mousegun, and there are a lot of folks betting their lives on those things nowadays.
__________________
Jon
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 04-24-2012, 01:04 AM
Kanewpadle's Avatar
Kanewpadle Kanewpadle is offline
US Veteran
.45ACP Carry Ammo: Corbon 185 grain JHP +P vs. 230 grain RN FMJ? .45ACP Carry Ammo: Corbon 185 grain JHP +P vs. 230 grain RN FMJ? .45ACP Carry Ammo: Corbon 185 grain JHP +P vs. 230 grain RN FMJ? .45ACP Carry Ammo: Corbon 185 grain JHP +P vs. 230 grain RN FMJ? .45ACP Carry Ammo: Corbon 185 grain JHP +P vs. 230 grain RN FMJ?  
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Wrong side of Washington
Posts: 10,174
Likes: 13,010
Liked 17,098 Times in 5,128 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by S.B. View Post
Hmmmm, must be why military stayed with it soo long? This statement really show immaturity.
There is no know handgun round that will stop an attacker, first shot, every time!
Steve
Military doesn't count. Never has. And if our military relied on handguns to fight, our country would be in trouble.

And how many rounds do our fine fighting guys and gals have to expend to put an enemy down? Because their using ball ammo, often it's much more than one round.

Immature? Go look in the mirror.
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old 04-24-2012, 01:08 AM
Kanewpadle's Avatar
Kanewpadle Kanewpadle is offline
US Veteran
.45ACP Carry Ammo: Corbon 185 grain JHP +P vs. 230 grain RN FMJ? .45ACP Carry Ammo: Corbon 185 grain JHP +P vs. 230 grain RN FMJ? .45ACP Carry Ammo: Corbon 185 grain JHP +P vs. 230 grain RN FMJ? .45ACP Carry Ammo: Corbon 185 grain JHP +P vs. 230 grain RN FMJ? .45ACP Carry Ammo: Corbon 185 grain JHP +P vs. 230 grain RN FMJ?  
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Wrong side of Washington
Posts: 10,174
Likes: 13,010
Liked 17,098 Times in 5,128 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by bennettfam View Post
.45 is better than 9mm, .45 hp is better than .45 ball, .44 mag is better than .45 hp, 12 gauge shotgun is better than .44 mag. Somewhere you need to stop and accept what is a reasonable defense round that works for you.

I think .45 ball is worth the trade-off I get with flawless feeding in my old slabsides, but if you can achieve that reliability with hp ammo in your gun then good for you. We are both going to be better armed than the guy with the .32 or .380 mousegun, and there are a lot of folks betting their lives on those things nowadays.
Glad it works for you. However, I feel that carrying fmj for protection is irresponsible at best. And I would never carry a gun that would not feed hollow points reliably. But that's just me.
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old 04-24-2012, 02:08 PM
NYlakesider's Avatar
NYlakesider NYlakesider is offline
Member
.45ACP Carry Ammo: Corbon 185 grain JHP +P vs. 230 grain RN FMJ? .45ACP Carry Ammo: Corbon 185 grain JHP +P vs. 230 grain RN FMJ? .45ACP Carry Ammo: Corbon 185 grain JHP +P vs. 230 grain RN FMJ? .45ACP Carry Ammo: Corbon 185 grain JHP +P vs. 230 grain RN FMJ? .45ACP Carry Ammo: Corbon 185 grain JHP +P vs. 230 grain RN FMJ?  
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Northern NY-AdirondackMts
Posts: 7,996
Likes: 12,855
Liked 13,379 Times in 5,042 Posts
Lightbulb A different .45 FMJ load

Quote:
Originally Posted by Flathead View Post
I have two 1911's and from what I have read the 1911 was designed to shoot ball type ammunition. I can't get HP ammo to feed reliably so all I have is ball type ammo which chamber flawlessly. Why are all ball type described as target rounds? A 230 gr projectile traveling at 890 fps and 400 + ft lbs of muzzle energy is NOT enough for self defense? What am I missing? HP's do not consistently expand according to many ballisticians. So, other than for marketing purposes, why the hype? We all know shot placement is key.
When I carried my .45 1911 Colt Gold Cup I used a handload that the powder charge duplicated the 230 ball load. The difference was I loaded with ** Hornady 230FMJ SWC ***. Being they were a SWC that had a bit of a blunt end and it did limit the penetration somewhat.

I live in serious cold country and people tend to dress in multi lawyers of clothes in the winter. This load got through clothes easy and still did a sweet job on what was behind the clothes. At the time I carried that load ( 9mm 38-357 HP) ammo would plug up on clothes like that and not expand well The above described .45 loads would get through clothes and being a bigger diameter do lots of damage.

Note I still have over a thousand slugs available for loading, but have not carried that load since Massad Ayoob gave his big lectures on hand loaded ammo Vs the lawyers years back. They worked well, but I do not know if there available today their #was 4518

Last edited by NYlakesider; 04-24-2012 at 02:11 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old 04-24-2012, 06:28 PM
papajohn428's Avatar
papajohn428 papajohn428 is offline
Member
.45ACP Carry Ammo: Corbon 185 grain JHP +P vs. 230 grain RN FMJ? .45ACP Carry Ammo: Corbon 185 grain JHP +P vs. 230 grain RN FMJ? .45ACP Carry Ammo: Corbon 185 grain JHP +P vs. 230 grain RN FMJ? .45ACP Carry Ammo: Corbon 185 grain JHP +P vs. 230 grain RN FMJ? .45ACP Carry Ammo: Corbon 185 grain JHP +P vs. 230 grain RN FMJ?  
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Coastal Missouri
Posts: 1,898
Likes: 899
Liked 977 Times in 467 Posts
Default

For warm weather I love the Hornady Critical Defense load (185 grain FTX at 1,000 fps) but for heavy clothing/winter scenarios I prefer the W-W PDX loads or the Ranger ammo, yet one of the loads that surprised me was the generic 230-JHP from Remington, sometimes available in very affordable 100-round budget packs. The tested Hornady and Remington bullets are shown below.



Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
1911, 230gr, 380, 4566, 45acp, colt, concealed, cs45, glock, hornady, hydra-shok, military, norinco, projectiles, remington, tactical, winchester

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Xtreme penetrater 350 grain vs 700 grain hardcast AveryR Ammo 8 03-09-2017 08:07 PM
9.5 Grain BE-86, 250 Grain RNFP, .45 Colt, S&W 625-3 Velocities Southern-Shooter Reloading 5 01-20-2017 05:42 PM
150 Grain Round Nose Lead Same Data as 150 Grain #2 Alloy? kbm6893 Reloading 5 06-24-2014 06:55 PM
230 GRAIN 45ACP LEAD AMMO chief38 Ammo 8 12-02-2010 01:22 PM
F/S,.45ACP ammo=40 boxes,all 230 grain,face ta face,Illinois Markcuda Accessories/Misc - For Sale or Trade 8 07-31-2009 02:24 PM

Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.3
smith-wessonforum.com tested by Norton Internet Security smith-wessonforum.com tested by McAfee Internet Security

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 02:16 PM.


Smith-WessonForum.com is not affiliated with Smith & Wesson Holding Corporation (NASDAQ Global Select: SWHC)