I found a loose cardboard box of 38 Special ammo on the internet that was from an old ballistics lab. I figured it would be good for some ammo
testing as it had examples of just about every 38 Special load made in the last 75 years including:

AMMO

Win 158gr Lubaloy LRN 1950s

Win +P 158gr SWC 1970s

Win M41 ball 1957 and 1980s

Rem 200gr LRN Super Police 1960s-1970s

Rem 158 gr LRN Police Service 1940-1950s

38-44 158 LRN- only had two so didn't shoot them as well as two 110gr Treasury loads

Also tested the Federal 38G FBI load and the Federal 38 +P+ 147 Hydra.

TEST WEAPONS

S&W Model 36 No Dash 2"

S&W Model 28-2 4" 1969 or so vintage

S&W pre 10 M&P 5" 1946 Vintage

S&W pre 15 K38 4" 1954 Vintage- only used for Super Police loads

Colt Official Police 4" 1957 vintage only used for one handload test

THE RESULTS

Weather: a typical TX day of 85-90 degrees with 80% or better humidity
Chrono Results all in fps:
Only fired one round in many cases due to supply

Win +P 158 gr LSWC 1980s:
2" 735fps
4" 883 fps
Non +p of this same load in 4" was 731 fps.

Federal 158 gr LRN 1980s:
5" 771 fps

M41 Ball 1957 vintage
2" 753 fps
4" 731 fps

Remington 158 LRN 1990-2000s
2" 685
5" 748

Rem-UMC headstamp 158 LRN Police Service 1950s
2" 644, 657, 565
4" 593, 716
5" 761

Win WRA headstamp 158 LRN 1950s
2" 694, 720
4" 706

Win or Western 158gr LRN Lubaloy
2" 690, 708
4" 681, 704
5" 716, 730

Remington 200gr LRN Super Police 1970s
2" 612
4" 708

Win 200gr LRN Super Police 1970s
4" K38 pre m15 at 75 degrees 624
2" 576

Federal 38G 158 LSWCHp FBI load 2008man.
2" 799
4" 861

Mexican Aguila 158 LRn 2002 man.
2" 634
4" 643

Federal 147 +P+ Hydra 2008 man.
4" 935

CCI Blazer 158 LRN 2000s
2" 690

3.2 grs W231 and 148 Horn. HBWC loaded backwards, Win SP, FC+P case
2" 739 and expanded to size of a dime in wet mud!

3.5 grs Unique with 200gr LRN Lyman cast bullet- "Super Police Replica load" fired from
4" Colt Official Police 1957 vintage gave 630 fps.

So there we have it. I know someone else was going to do a vintage 38
test, but we can compare my results to his. I don't know how this ammo was stored over the years, but it appears that the old 38s were no hotter than new ones. I do know the older load manuals had hotter 38s.

It is always neat to play with old ammo and see what the old timers had.
One thing is for sure, some of that old ammo was SMOKY. It looked like black powder in the high humidity. I handload and know these were not handloads as I collect vintage ammo as well. I was really surprised and it made for a fun afternoon.

Thanks for the post...nothing surprising as just about all standard .38 Special loads run in the 700-900 fps range...

The 147 +P+ Federal HS duplicates the 9mm 147 Subsonic round...

Bob

I believe that is precisely what Federal and the Feebies intended.

Thanks for taking the time to do the test and post the results - I'll be back to visit this thread tomorrow.

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Now go make God proud...

I think it is interesting that the 200 grain "Super Police" loads basically duplicate my light 200 grain load for IDPA minor. Depending on the primer and exact powder charge I get between 650 and 700 fps with the 200 grain Lyman 358430.

On the other hand, my IDPA major load makes 875-900 fps with the same bullet using .38 Special data from older 1960s-1970s manuals.

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Hello Cleveland, Rock and Roll

Howdy BreakerDan, that would be me. I have some of the same ammo, and will hopefully be doing the test in October. I plan on shooting 5 rounds from each box, from a 4" Model 28. Below is a pic of the old stuff I have, and there is a greater ammo of newer ammo that will also be tested for velocity.

As to the 38-44 loads, I don't blame you for not shooting them. Over on The High Road there is an excellent 38-44 thread, with one of the posters showing his 'wheel' of Heavy Duty S&W revolvers, and stating that his test of that original factory ammo runs (IIRC) 1125 to 1150 fps, depending on barrel length.

As to the 110 grain Treasury loads, I have previously tested some of those and they were a disappointing 1077 fps from a 4" Model 15, far below the Super Vel 110 grain at 1221 from the same gun.

Thanks for going to the trouble to test, record, and post the results of your ammo test!

Stiab, looking forward to your test.
I want to see what the Hi Way Master loads do.
Thanks for the info on the 38-44, I had heard they
were in the 1100 range. Wish 38-44 was still available
with say the 158 LSWCHP gas checked, that would be a good load.
Buffalo Bore could come close with their +P version.

Dan, there's no reason that you couldn't do that from a .357.

Incredibly interesting research, Dan. Thank you for sharing your data.

Forgive me for jumping to historical conclusions, but it appears that for decades law enforcement used duty ammo that wouldn’t qualify for IDPA minor today. It puts in prospective accounts about bullets bouncing of mailboxes, skulls, etc. What was the reason to choose such weak ammo? All opinions are welcome but I’d be particularly interested to hear from those who back in the day actually carried it on duty.

Mike

P.S. After posting this question I discovered 38 Special 158 gr LRN-good enough? thread. It has all the opinions/accounts I've been looking for. Sorry about duplication. -Mike

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9x19, 9x29R, 9x33R, 10x22

One basically has to be a handloader to shoot .38-44 ammunition these days. I've gotten 1200 fps safely (though just starting to show pressure signs) using Alliant 2400 with a Lyman 358429 173 grain Keith SWC in a 4" 681 using .38 Special brass. I would imagine dropping down to a shorter 158 grain SWC would get rid of the pressure issue (provided it was seated less deeply in the case), but I don't cast 158 grain SWCs. I might try it with some Missouri Bullet 158 grain RNLs I have and see how it goes.

Tests like yours often show that old .38 Special factory ammunition was just as anemic as most of it is today. The .38-44 and Super Vel was the exception back then; manufacturers like Buffalo Bore are the exception now.

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Hello Cleveland, Rock and Roll

[QUOTE=BreakerDan;1124373]
Also tested the Federal 38G FBI load and the Federal 38 +P+ 147 Hydra.



Federal 38G 158 LSWCHp FBI load 2008man.
2" 799
4" 861

The Federal 38 G is +P

Interesting about the bullets loaded backwards :

" 3.2 grs W231 and 148 Horn. HBWC loaded backwards, Win SP, FC+P case
2" 739 and expanded to size of a dime in wet mud! "

I was given a very nice 2" Model 10 and a nickel plated Model 36 by a friend of my dads who worked for a Colorado police dept in the 60's and 70's. Her kids hate guns so I was next in line. She also gave me a box of 158 lead round nose cartridges with the bullets loaded backwards. She said some of the officers handloaded the ammo for her for self defense. Sounds like they knew what they were doing. I'm not going to fire the ammo because I'm not sure about what the powder load is.

Performance like that erases any doubt as to the reason .357 Magnum was invented. I knew the old Air Force 130 grain loads were particularly puny, but in this context they now look about par for the times.

Thanks for the report, just love seeing the old stuff. I always favored the winchester 158 rnl bullet that was gold colored. Wish they still made it and the 200 grain super police. I have two rounds of remington. Any 158 lead duplicate loadings you discovered. I always though the 3.7 or 3.5 grains of bullseye and 158 was about it.

Here is what the Treasury load Federal38F-TD 110gr38spl +P+ round will do in humans. Slug removed from dead rapist. Range is arms length Subj wearing two shirts Shot from S&W Mod 15 4"

Looks like the treasury load worked well for you.
How big was this subject and how deep did the
bullet go?

I'm curious too. A 4" .38 is definately no joke, especially in +P+.

63" 144# Blood Alcohol .20 and he was positive for toluene. 19yr old
Entered upper chest as he was leaning into me attempting to Stab me round went thru the heart "blowing it to shreds" per Coroner, through the lower lobe of the lung and stopped just under the skin of the back in the fatty tissue right lower thoractic back 45" above right heel 2 1/2" to the right of midline. Check www.armsmaster.net - The Armsmaster 270 * * * * * * under Negrete for info.

I looked at that story. I think you should post the direct link here. It was very informative. I started to link it, but thought I'd better ask first.

The six- minute delay in issuing the call due to lack of available units could easily result in a death by an intruder.
Then, add response time after the officer actually gets the call...

.357 always trumps 911 in an emergency, I think.

Glad that you survived that one, Bob. Thanks for sharing.
Did you fire many of those very hot Treasury loads in your .38? Weren't they really meant for use in .357's?

T-Star

Armsmaster, I know what happened made your life hell, but thank you for doing the Lord's work. Thank you for posting.

Thanks for the reply armsmaster and glad you survived that.

Was this the issue ammo or your choice?

Tex:
I thought about that after posting then had to leave. On the ammo we fired all issue ammo at Semi Annual Quals then they issued all fresh. They were designed to be fired in a good 38 Spl they were a 15% overload from +P ammo. here is the info from Winchester +P+110gr the CHP used

Breaker:
Issue ammo city issued S&W mod 15 4" with 158 ball but we could carry our own after Super Vels came out then the FBI LSWCHP and then the Treasury load. When they stopped issuing 158gr LRN the issue ammo became manditory. Even had to carry them in my mod 19 I carried under my shirt as a BUG.
My issue 38

I see that statement (intend for use in .357) frequently on the internet, but have not yet heard a law enforcement officer of that era confirm it. I could be wrong, but in my opinion it is material for urban legend. It was certainly not true when I was issued the Treasury load seen below. The standard issue weapon of that day was a Colt or S&W 4" .38 Special, and this is the ammo (the only box I have left) they intended us to carry in it...

Same here they issued it for 38's I have 1 winchester and two federal boxes left of the +P+. I also bought my issue mod 15 for $125.00 when they went to Sig 9mm's I have 2 boxes of Black Talon 127gr SXT+P+ 9mm and a Sig 228 9mm

The Winchester 110gr +P+ is rated at 1218fps out of a 4" barreled 38spl. Lower out of a .357mag due to bullet jump in the longer cylinder.

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20 years Mil, 18 yrs Sac P.D.

I'd rather use a .38 spl +p that offers controlled followup shots instead of revved up magnums for HD; let's not even mention the 'overstimulation' that magnum loads produce within enclosed environments...especially the damage they do to the human auditory system; even the 'punier' older stuff/current stuff is better that nothing if it is all you have on hand

I have shot a few of those with great results. Don't have the chrono data but that western x wad cutter is the straightest shooting ammo I have.
38sp 003.jpg

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Joshua Brown(Town)

I probably have 15, or more boxes of the Treasury round in my stock pile. That was our Gov't issue ammo from the time I came on until they finally authorized carrying .357 Magnum ammo. Shoot, we weren't even authorized to carry speedloaders until 1988, everything was 6 and 12 round loops.

Our issue guns were .357's (S&W, Rugers and a few Colts[very few]) but the ammo was .38 Special. I believe now, this was mostly a matter of money. The Gov't ammo contract, which supplied ammo for all Federal Law Enforcement is huge and it saved money to have everyone using the same ammo. As far as use in .357 guns only, never ever heard that. I still carry the Treasury round in my Detective Special and it was used in all of the under cover .38 snubbies in the issue room and those guns issued to the Special Agents.

When we wanted to carry Magnums, we had to qualify with them and provide our own ammo. It hurt to spend $27 a box on 147 grain Silver Tips, but I gladly bought two boxes a quarter until converting to a semi-auto for duty carry.

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Non illegitimae carborundum

As the back of the boxes were printed they were designed for use in good condition all steel 38spl's no alloy guns. Follow up shots were no problem with the +P+ load and accuracy was excellent. They actually lost performance in .357Mag's.

__________________
20 years Mil, 18 yrs Sac P.D.

I had forgotten about the T load....wonder how it compares to the current CorBon .38 Special 110 +P load....

Bob

My hunch is about the same, Bob. The Corbon JHP load is very "magnumish" and has much more recoil and muzzle blast than 110 gr. +P DPX, or Speer SB .38+P. It was very impressive in Perma-Gel and penetration was very deep (IIRC ~ 15"). No doubt you know that the Sierra JHPs, such as Corbon uses in that load, are old school, and behave not unlike a Remington SJHP.

I happened to have chrono tested the Federal 110+p+,the Winchester 110+p+ as well as the DPX +p on the same day thru the same Ruger sp101 3in magnum version. Velocities all overlapped each other and all three were in the 1065-1075 range. None could hold a candle however to the 110+p CorBon with the Sierra bullet. That load reached 1207 from the same Ruger and hit 1200fps avg from a Smith 640.
I have another lot of the Winchester that averages 1122 fps from a 3in 36.

x...thanks for the information.... The few times a decade I carry a .38 it is loaded with CorBon 110s or PowR'Ball.

An ex-partner in Dallas once shot a guy with a M15 using a hot handload using a 110 Sirerra. It was probably screaming a little more than 1200 fps. Partner shot through a door at a guy who was waiting for him on the other side with a gun...put the guy right down. This was back in the late 1960s or early 70s.

My ex-partner told me the loads were really too hot for a M15 as the extra barrel shank sticking out from the frame ended up cracking...in a M19 this would not have happened...

Bob

Were you ever able to test these? From your post in the "Bodyguard" thread I did a search and found this thread but the original poster only tested one +P load. Didn't know if you posted your test in another thread or not?

Actually, the OP tested two +P loads (although the Federal FBI load was not id'ed as +P) and one +P+ load. What is even more telling though is the low numbers from the older standard ammo, which some claim from reading old ads that they clocked at about 850 fps.

For my test I have received a large shipment of ammo to be included from a contributor, and am waiting for some 60 degree weather, which should be here soon. And, I also have several other tests to do involving smaller amounts of 38 Auto, .38 Super from revolvers, .357 mag in carbine and revolver, etc.

Thanks, I'll look forward to it.

In your opinion is the older ammo still as viable today after 20, 30, 40+ years as it was when originally loaded? I understand there are velocity differences between test barrels and real firearms just as there are between different barrel lengths within the same model of firearm. I'm just curious if shooting ammo loaded perhaps serveral if not many decades ago is reflective of the readings it would have presented when fresh?

Also are powders today engineered differently in regards to how they deal with breakdown over time, storage & handling conditions, etc?

That's an excellent question that I do not have a definitive answer to. My belief is that it will be as potent today as it was then, but that is based primarily upon the results of the Old -vs-New .38 Super test I performed a while back, and a few other tests I have done. If you did not see the .38 Super results, a link is given below. In it, I tested rounds of .38 Super from 5 boxes that ranged in age from 40 to 70 years old (along with several boxes of new ammo), and the old averaged 1202 fps. This leads me to believe that the ammo has not degraded over the years.

Also a short while back I tested some Super Vel 110 grain .38 Special that clocked 1221 fps from a 4" Model 15, leading me to believe the last 35 to 40 years have not harmed it. But, there is no way to know for sure, that I am aware of. I'm glad other people find this as interesting as I do!

Ammo Test Old -vs- New for 38 Super

I realize the original post was quite a while ago, but it's a good thing you didn't shoot the 38/44 rounds. I understand they are highly collectible. I have a Heavy Duty and an Outdoorsman and I've never even seen a round of 38/44 except in pictures. Very interesting test.

Here's a 38-44 link from The High Road you might be interested in, where posters give actual results from testing the original ammo. Especially good in about the 4th post up from the bottom on the last page where a gentleman shows his "wheel" of Outdoorsmans and HD's.

S&w 38/44 - THR

This is valuable and interesting info. Thanks!

Charlie

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SWCA # 2294

Stiab, Dang it, now that I looked at the "wheel" I'm gonna be having dreams about 'em tonight! Oh well, I guess one Heavy Duty and one Outdoorsman will have to do for now for me. Sometimes I wonder what product S@W has today that will make collectors drool in 50 or 60 years.

I was pretty sure you would enjoy that, P@R!!

Win or Western 158gr LRN Lubaloy
2" 690, 708
4" 681, 704
5" 716, 730

This was surprising.. I always thought these loads were hotter than that..
Everything else was as expected..

Excellent test! Thanks for posting