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  #1  
Old 10-06-2009, 09:14 PM
ajpelz ajpelz is offline
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Default Carry Ammo Survey -- Factory or Reloads?

Reloads or Factory?

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  #2  
Old 10-06-2009, 09:23 PM
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Factory... The CorBon .38 Super PowR'Ball load is powerful, reliable and very accurate...and I can not duplicate it.

As to reloads, I often carry them in my revolvers and used to always carry reloads in everything up until the early 1990s when factory ammo was finally better than what I could make..

..and no I don't worry about it.

Bob Makowski
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Old 10-06-2009, 09:41 PM
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I always carry Factory ammo.Being a lawyer you already know that the chorus of "You made those reloads so hot as to be devestating with whatever mystery substance encapusulated in the hollow point so that you would kill that "Fine citizen" trying to just take your money and we can't test the bullets" would be sung to the jury.This way the factory rounds would be one less thing to worry about.Here in New York if you are killed in a robbery attempt its oh well too bad.If you kill the robber,even if cleared by a Grand Jury in the shooting,you will be sued for wrongful death so the robber's family will be successful in what the perp was not and use the legal system to do it.If you are exonerated you will be broke from the legal bills.....Ain't America Grand........Mike
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Old 10-06-2009, 09:44 PM
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I have been a handloader for about 30 years. I carry factory ammo for serious social purposes.
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  #5  
Old 10-06-2009, 09:46 PM
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Factory. Period.

Not to disparage any of the handloaders here, but it's hard to beat the quality control for name-brand, high-quality self-defense or law enforcement ammo. And, like the old commercials... If it doesn't say Sunkist, you don't know what you might be getting! I like to know pretty much exactly what's in my sidearm.
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Old 10-06-2009, 10:21 PM
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When I carry a handgun it is always without exception loaded with factory JHP ammunition. In choosing a home protection handgun, I bought what is standard issue in the local police and sheriff"s department... i.e., Glock G-22 w/ Remington 180gr. JHP. I figure if ever challenged on the handgun or ammunition that I might have to use, there will be little room for argument if I am using the same handgun and ammunition as is commonly issued by local law enforcement agencies. Sincerely. brucev.
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Old 10-06-2009, 10:39 PM
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Factory ammo only.
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Old 10-06-2009, 10:48 PM
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Factory ammo here. Winchester Ranger.
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  #9  
Old 10-06-2009, 10:58 PM
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Didn't we just do this?

I carry factory ammo in my semiautos, and sometimes handloads, sometimes factory in my revolvers.

I've been through my rationale here a few times before, so I won't bore anyone with it.
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Old 10-06-2009, 11:07 PM
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Sir, FWIW, I often carry handloads in the boonies, but not around town. Were it not for the previously mentioned legal concerns, I'd just carry my handloads everywhere.

Hope this helps, and Semper Fi.

Ron H.
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Old 10-06-2009, 11:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich View Post
Didn't we just do this?
Sir, it's Tuesday. You know the rule. ;-)

Hope this helps, and Semper Fi.

Ron H.
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  #12  
Old 10-06-2009, 11:38 PM
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I remember a post by a famous gun-instructor who testifies in a lot of court cases. I believe he said that he had never seen that issue used in a courtroom...which is contrary to what most folks preach.
Whatever, I only carry factory. It is very likely to go bang when I want it to. No other reason is necessary. I've been reloading for 50 years and I know there have been times...
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  #13  
Old 10-06-2009, 11:54 PM
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Factory ammo for the street because of lawyers, reloads for range.
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  #14  
Old 10-07-2009, 12:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sonny View Post
I remember a post by a famous gun-instructor who testifies in a lot of court cases. I believe he said that he had never seen that issue used in a courtroom...which is contrary to what most folks preach.
You beat me to it. I was just going to ask if anyone knew of a documented case where the "hot reloads" argument was used?

I very often carry reloads as defensive ammo. Many times when I make a late run to the convenience store for cokes or gas, I will stick a Chiefs Sp. in my pocket that is loaded with 146 grain wadcutters with "several-point-five" grains of Unique behind them. Sometimes I stick a .45 Vaquero in my waistband, and it is always loaded with reloads. I carry these guns on the farm for snakes, cats, coyotes, wild dogs, trespassers, armadillos, etc, and that is how they stay loaded. I have been handloading about 36 years, and I have fired enough of my loads that I believe the chance of a misfire is negligible to not a factor. When I load a batch, and I usually load about 500-1000 at the time, I will shoot 50 or a hundred from the batch to "proof" them, just to make sure there wasn't a bad batch of primers or something.
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Old 10-07-2009, 12:18 AM
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A case that I know of involved a woman who allegedly was shot by accident with reloads.

The husband's story was that he had loaded his wife's gun with either wadcutters or SWC (can't remember) at a very light load so she could manage the recoil. Story goes that one day she was holding the gun to her head threatening suicide. According to the husband, he tried to grab the gun from his wife when it discharged. Evidence showed that the wife had no ascertainable gun powder on her skin around the bullet wound. Prosecution insisted that this showed the wife was shot from a relatively great distance, and that the husband's story was fabricated. His contention was of course that the rounds were loaded so light, the gun powder completely burned before reaching his wife. The prosecution contended that there is no factory loaded ammunition that would burn all the powder over that short of distance. The husband tried to introduce his reload log and submit reloads for testing as evidence. The court refused to allow this evidence to be admitted. (not sure on what grounds) He ended up being convicted and serving time. Who knows what really happened, but it is an example of how reloads can come back to bite in the courtroom.
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  #16  
Old 10-07-2009, 12:57 AM
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Factroy only when packing for defense against two legged mutton.
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  #17  
Old 10-07-2009, 01:49 AM
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When I carry either a .45LC Mountain Gun or a .44 Mag Mtn. gun, it's with my loads. I try to tailor tehm to abot 950fps with a 250-280 grn. bullet.
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  #18  
Old 10-07-2009, 11:31 AM
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Off my property, it's factory Gold Dot ammo.

On my land, my revolvers have handloads in them.
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  #19  
Old 10-07-2009, 04:30 PM
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I carry both. As my supply of factory is used up, I will use handloads in all of my centerfire weapons.

I am sick and tired of the ridiculous prices of factory defensive ammo, and the atrocious quality of some that I've bought over the last three years. I've got defective ammo from Speer, Remington and Buffalo Bore. I can make better ammo than they can.
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Old 10-09-2009, 10:48 AM
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Factory. There are enough quality rounds for any purpose, and why introduce one more factor that can be used against you.
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  #21  
Old 10-09-2009, 09:57 PM
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Factory for carry.

Reloads for hunting and practice.
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  #22  
Old 10-09-2009, 10:05 PM
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Here in the gunshine state no one cares what loads get used and there won't be civil court problems either with the current laws. So location can matter in the very remote chance it's brought up. I've carried both.
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  #23  
Old 10-09-2009, 10:38 PM
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I have been an LEO for 38 years and have read all the stuff regarding this issue. I still think that it comes down to whether it was a lawful/rightful shooting and that that is all that should matter. If I am camping and have a revolver that I always take camping or my shotgun loaded with slugs that I take along for a bear attack, and have to utilize it for self defense, so be it. Was the shoot lawful under the law. That is all that should matter. I think that people get way too hung up in the **** over reloads vs factory ammo. Just my humble opinion.

Tom
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  #24  
Old 10-10-2009, 01:27 AM
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Factory Loads

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  #25  
Old 10-10-2009, 02:21 AM
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I generally carry handloads. 158 Gr. SWCHP's in .38 Special/.357; In 9mm, I stagger my loads in all my mags. Hornady 125 Gr. XTP's and Winchester 125 Gr. FMJ's are alternated. You never know what you'll have to shoot, or what you'll have to shoot through. I've been rolling my own since 1975.
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  #26  
Old 10-10-2009, 02:54 AM
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Both. I think like Marshall Tom.
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  #27  
Old 10-10-2009, 07:52 AM
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A related story is that, you loaded up those super duper hot loads that can blow someones head clean off and then went looking for trouble. Or so the prosecutor will say. This can be used to show intent or premeditation.(perhaps if you have a video cabinet full of Charles Bronson movies they could do the same I dont know)

Probably an ol housewives tale...

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  #28  
Old 10-10-2009, 08:35 AM
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NEVER use reloads for carry. Google the "Bias" case in New Jersey. A Dentist tried to disarm his suicidal wife who was holding his S&W 686 loaded with his target reloads. The gun discharged and she died. He was convicted of Murder. The Lab that did the tests screwed up and was partly responsible for his conviction. The case is under appeal as we speak. The prosecutor made a big deal of the reloads in court. DON'T!
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  #29  
Old 10-10-2009, 10:37 AM
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I don't believe the Bias case is a good case for "no reloads".

Does Bias claim that: 1) He kept his 686 loaded with target loads normally, or 2) It was normally stored empty, and she loaded herself?

If it was the 2nd case, then the argument could be for "don't even reload at all". I don't think anyone would agree to stop reloading out of fear that someone could load up their ammo and commit a crime.

I've shot a lot of target .38 loads, with a variety of powders from vv N310 (clean) through Bullseye (dirty). They all produce lots of smoke, soot, ash, and other particles. I don't buy the defense argument that someone shooting himself with target loads wouldn't have GSR on him.

I'm not convinced Bias is innocent.

That said, I keep my .45 loaded with Speer 230 gr Gold Dots. I don't believe I can create better defense ammo than factory.
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Old 10-11-2009, 11:53 AM
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captainjohnsofd wrote:
Quote:
The case is under appeal as we speak. The prosecutor made a big deal of the reloads in court.
Captain John, as I understand it Mr. Bias has already served his time, was released and was recently arrested again for possession of weapons while under disability.

The above mentioned case was appealed after the first conviction and was overturned. The first time it was brought to trial it ended in a hung jury so the first conviction was the second time it went to trial. There was a third trial which ended in another conviction and it held after it was appealed.

From what little actual(?) information I could find on the case it appears that Mr. Bias was intoxicated at the time and had made some incriminating statements during the initial investigation. The doubt that caused the hung jury and the first conviction to be overturned wasn't a question of 'did he kill his wife' it was 'why did he kill his wife'.

Also, if the prosecution did make a big deal of the reloads in court, that would have contradicted the courts assertion that he had used the factory ammunition they claimed he used and the lab had tested. In other words; they would have shot down their own evidence. And if it was the "only" evidence, as has been stated in the past, any conviction based on that would have been overturned.
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Old 10-11-2009, 12:12 PM
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ajpelz wrote:
Quote:
A case that I know of involved a woman who allegedly was shot by accident with reloads.
The case stated has been discussed in length, and well beyond, twice that I know of here. I think one was in reloading and the other maybe the lounge. It was written originally about by Mas Ayoob, a well known writer who also happens to be a forum member and he participated in both discussions.

While the husband claimed the gun was loaded with handloads, the court claimed they were factory loads and refused to even look at the possibility they may not have been. This could happen with factory ammo and, according to one of our members who was also in the discussion, had.

Mr. Ayoobs reason for not using reloads is the lack of exemplar evidence that (some) factory ammo has available. Both of these discussions were on the old server so I don't know for sure if they are still available.
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  #32  
Old 10-11-2009, 01:24 PM
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Why don't we have the same argument over hollowpoint vs. ball.
The lawyers could use HP against you too.
IMHO, just make sure what you did was lawful.
In most areas, choice of ammo will probably not matter.
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Old 10-11-2009, 01:33 PM
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after 40 plus yrs of reloading, only my loads. as stated earlier, i want to know what is in them. over the years i have had more duds with factory ammo than mine. if i have to use a gun, the last thing i will worry about is what ammo is in it.
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Old 10-11-2009, 01:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BreakerDan View Post
IMHO, just make sure what you did was lawful.

This is really all that matters. If the shoot is questionable, it matters little what you use, only the lawyers will win and you will be left broke or in prison, possibly both.
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Old 10-11-2009, 05:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 500 Magnum Nut View Post
Factory ammo for the street because of lawyers, reloads for range.
Same here. No reason to give the defense attorney any 'ammo' to use against you.
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  #36  
Old 10-12-2009, 01:06 PM
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I can't believe that a round powerful enough to get the bullet out of the barrel won't leave powder residue on a contact wound.
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Old 10-12-2009, 01:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BreakerDan View Post
Why don't we have the same argument over hollowpoint vs. ball.
The lawyers could use HP against you too.
IMHO, just make sure what you did was lawful.
In most areas, choice of ammo will probably not matter.
I see no merit in this assertion. Every LE agency that I know of requires officers to carry HP ammo. No LE agency that I know of has allowed their officers to carry reloads while on duty. HP has advantages over ball for the shooter, perp, and bystanders. Faster incapacitation, less shots fired, and significantly less chance of over-penetration.
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Old 10-12-2009, 01:35 PM
gwalchmai gwalchmai is offline
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Isn't it true though that in a civil trial the facts (good shoot? carry what LEOs carry? just bought what was cheapest at Wal-Mart? handloads?) will matter less than how well the thespian-at-law can persuade the jurors of your badness?
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Old 10-13-2009, 12:56 PM
Jellybean Jellybean is offline
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ajpelz wrote:
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I see no merit in this assertion.
Actually that assertion has more merit than your assertion that it's better to use factory ammo over reloads so the prosecution can't use it against you.

Have you ever heard of a case where a prosecutor actually did accuse a defendant in a self defense shooting of any malice or bad intent for using handloads? This question has been asked many times on this discussion but no one has ever answered yes, yet. So if you are the first please let us know.

There was at least one case where a prosecutor did try to use factory hollow point ammunition against a defendant to claim he had malicious intentions. It was the Harold Fish case which has been discussed here along with the Daniel Bias case.

Saying you won't carry handloads to prevent something that has never happened is very smart. The reason the people that do carry handloads for self defense aren't responding to your "informal poll" is because they can't argue with that "logic". Especially when those who believe every thing they read in a gun magazine is gospel won't let them speak their mind without being criticized, scorned or flamed for their actions. The idea is based on folly instead of fact. It's amazing how many people say they carry factory only because of what people may say about them. How many of them carry firearms that say "magnum" or anything to do with "combat" or "tactical" or etc.? How many use high capacity magazines like the drug dealers and gang bangers do? How many are using hollow points, soft points or lead bullets that were originally developed for hunting? Do they have to have a gun writer tell them what phobias they need to have?

Next question...

Last edited by Jellybean; 10-13-2009 at 12:59 PM.
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Old 10-13-2009, 03:10 PM
acl864 acl864 is offline
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I carry handloads- not reloads. Virgin brass, every powder charge weighed, Fed Gold Medal Match primers individually inspected, bullets are also inspected before being seated and crimped. Any ammo can have a ftf due to a qc issue but I trust myself more than I trust ANY factory, no matter how quality oriented they claim to be. I don't give a rat's behind about what any lawyer may or may not do if use my handloads in a critical situation. If I'm on trial it means I survived. Job done.
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  #41  
Old 10-13-2009, 04:23 PM
flop-shank flop-shank is offline
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It seems that gun magazines would want to encourage the use of factory ammo since the more-than-a-buck-a-shot ammo makers (the same people who, often as not, are too cheap to use nickel plated brass) advertise in them. Follow the money.
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Old 10-13-2009, 05:00 PM
flop-shank flop-shank is offline
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That man attacking Fish was bigger, younger, stronger and coming at him from higher ground. He very arguably had the ability to disarm Fish and kill him with his own weapon, so even unarmed, in many, if not most states, Kuenzli was fair game.

Last edited by flop-shank; 10-13-2009 at 09:13 PM.
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Old 10-13-2009, 05:16 PM
Jellybean Jellybean is offline
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Exactly, except for the pompous, pretentious response part. Harold Fish didn't go to prison because he used a 10mm loaded with hollow points and Daniel Bias didn't go to prison because of handloaded ammunition.

The only information available on the Bias case was from Masaad Ayoobs articles. As a client of Bias' attorney the only information he could give is from the defenses version of the truth. There were other factors present that got him convicted, just like the Fish case.
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Old 10-14-2009, 06:55 AM
gwalchmai gwalchmai is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ajpelz View Post
Living in AZ, where the Fish case took place, one of the most gun friendly states, (we can carry concealed in bars here, legally) a homicide is NEVER justified when there is a single UNARMED attacker. Period. If a 220 pound unarmed man is violently beating a 100 pound female, deadly force is not justified. They may be convicted of a lesser charge due to the circumstances, but they are criminally, and subsequently civilly liable nonetheless.
So then if you attacked me with a 9mm I would not be justified in defending with a 9mm +P, huh?

Pretty silly theory you have there, isn't it?
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Old 10-14-2009, 09:13 AM
OKFC05 OKFC05 is offline
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I
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would like to know in which states such actions are legally justified. At common law, force must equal force, thus a hands and fists beating cannot be defended by a gun, or knife, or rock, or bottle....
OK, TX, and KY are three that I know of for sure that allow lethal force to be used when life and limb are in imminent danger from unarmed disparity of force in an unprovoked attack. In OK, if someone breaks into your house, the only justification you need for using any force you choose is that they broke in and you felt "any danger, however slight."

Mutual combat (Like a barfight) is another matter entirely. I suspect your "common law" interpretation is not so common as you think. IANAL.
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Old 10-14-2009, 10:01 AM
elcruisr elcruisr is offline
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Add FL to the list. You can defend without retreat against a forceable felony, car intrusion or home intrusion. The burden of proving you wrong is also placed upon the state. In an incident you are really innocent unless they prove you guilty.
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Old 10-14-2009, 10:24 AM
Jellybean Jellybean is offline
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In Ohio you are allowed to use deadly force if you feel you or another person is in immediate danger of serious physical harm or death. A 100lb woman being attacked by a 220lb man would be justified in using lethal force if she felt she was in serious danger. A 250lb man can use lethal force against a 100lb woman if he felt he was in serious danger. Fortunately we don't have to sustain life threatening injuries in a fist fight if one of Don Kings fighters up the street decides to test his mettle. Private citizens aren't allowed to carry batons or stun guns here either.

Even the police aren't restricted to equal force on force, they are trained to go to the next highest level they can. ie, if a suspect is being passively non-compliant you can spray him, if he's fighting with his hands you can taser him or use a baton, depending on what you are carrying. If he pulls out any kind of weapon, or takes your baton or taser the only step higher for most officers is lethal force.

What I was getting at is both arguments are a non-issue. People are running around saying you must carry factory ammo to prevent an attorney from trying to villify you, but it's never happened. It has happened that in one case a prosecutor did try to villify a suspect for using hollow point factory ammo, and the suspect got convicted. But it wasn't because of the accuastions of the ammo, he got what he deserved.

Mr. Ayoob stated you should not use reloads for self defense carry. Then presented the Bias case as evidence...becuase there was never a case where carrying reloads for self defense has presented a problem. Did you get to read the article when it was presented? Mr. Bias did get to present his side of the story and the court recognized it as the total B.S. that it was. The wound to his wife was about one inch behind her left ear, and was made with a 6" revolver. If you happen to have a 6" revolver available put yourself in her position and see how far away from your head you can get it. Plus the fact that she was right handed and he claimed she did that to blame him for her death. Not to mention a whole lot of other highly doubtable claims.

There was no GSR on her. Defense tried to say this was because of the light loads he claimed he had in his gun. Mr. Ayoob tested similar rounds and claimed that he could duplicate the results. One of our forum members in one of the previous threads did the same but couldn't get the same results, there were always trace amounts of residue. Mr. Ayoobs testimony was never presented at trial, and everything he knew about it came from the defense team. The investigators took a lot of evidence from Mr. Bias' house, he claims the ammo they tested wasn't in the gun, how would anyone but him know any different, other than the person that opened it up after the shooting? His claims weren't substantiated by the evidence, big surprise, so why is it so many people are willing to look at his side of the argument and not at any of the evidence presented against him and proclaim him innocent? I had a teacher once whose favorite saying was the "medium is the message", meaning people tend to believe what they read because of the opinions of who wrote it and will totally ignore the facts presented.

Fish and Bias are the same, and they got what they deserved for it.
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Old 10-14-2009, 10:55 AM
ajpelz ajpelz is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gwalchmai View Post
So then if you attacked me with a 9mm I would not be justified in defending with a 9mm +P, huh?

Pretty silly theory you have there, isn't it?
9mm = deadly force. 9mm+P = deadly force. Same force. If someone attacked to with a 9mm, and all you had was a 50 BMG handy, you would be justified using that. In the legal community, force is not the foot-punds of energy, only the consequential damage.

"In OK, if someone breaks into your house, the only justification you need for using any force you choose is that they broke in and you felt 'any danger, however slight.'"

Now this addresses the defense of the home, not self-defense. It would be a justified homicide on completely different grounds. In AZ, you may THREATEN deadly force for a mere trespass, and use deadly force on a burglar. All that one has to do to become a burglar is, 1. Enter a walled or gated in yard or, 2. Enter ones place of residence or attachment.

"A 250lb man can use lethal force against a 100lb woman if he felt he was in serious danger."
Incorrect.

The danger must be from an objective standpoint, not subjective. If some guy looks at you funny and YOU feel that you are in serious danger, justifiable homicide? It is up to those "12 people who were too stupid to get out of jury duty" to determine if your fear was reasonable and justified.

As for the FMJ vs. HP argument, look up the case McCarthy v. Olin Corp. There a judge dismissed a lawsuit against the company that made Black Talon bullets based on the grounds any bullet is lethal, therefore a bullet that expanded and fragmented upon impact was not excessive. The concept of bullets are to kill, and Black Talons achieved this quite well. That decision was affirmed by the Court of Appeals.

"Add FL to the list. You can defend without retreat against a forceable felony, car intrusion or home intrusion. The burden of proving you wrong is also placed upon the state."

Those justifications are specifically created by statute, and are thus, an exception to the common law. AZ has those also, but you can add kidnapping, rape, arson of an occupied structure, and a few others to that list of specific scenarios where it is in the state statute that deadly force is justified. These are state exceptions to the common law, and each state has their own. The common law is what is used when there is no specific statutory justification, ie, a hands and fists beating that I describe above.

Last edited by ajpelz; 10-14-2009 at 11:19 AM.
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Old 10-14-2009, 11:29 AM
OKFC05 OKFC05 is offline
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Quote:
"In OK, if someone breaks into your house, the only justification you need for using any force you choose is that they broke in and you felt 'any danger, however slight.'"

Now this addresses the defense of the home, not self-defense. It would be a justified homicide on completely different grounds
There is no such law as "defense of home" (or property) with deadly force in OK law. Your statement that "deadly force cannot be used against an unarmed attacker" is entirely false in OK law and case law.
OK law provides that deadly force can be used when "in emminent danger of death or serious bodily harm."
http://www.ok.gov/osbi/documents/SDA...OV_2007_2_.pdf

We have case law of unarmed attackers being shot on public streets without any charges being filed against the person who defended themselves. On the other hand, people who pulled a weapon because they were losing a barfight HAVE been charged, since it was mutual combat.

In TX, one of the first cases tested in Dallas was a truck driver who was beating up another driver on the road, and was fatally shot by the beating victim, in front of witnesses. The Dallas DA took it to the Grand Jury as a test case, and, as expected, no charges were brought.

In KY, I know a fellow pistol competitor who happens to be a bank branch manager. He has fatally shot three bank robbers. One had a weapon, the other two were bluffing. In KY, if you walk up with your hand in your pocket and make a credible threat, you may wind up shot on the spot for your actions.

Two youths accosted a couple on the streets in KY and demanded money. One was shot and the other ran away, to be picked up later. Both youths were charged with strongarm robbery, and no charges were filed against the couple. I personally know the couple.

The assertion that "a weapon cannot be legally used against an unarmed attacker" is simply wrong under the laws of many states.

Now in MA, you may be right.

Last edited by OKFC05; 10-14-2009 at 11:32 AM.
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Old 10-14-2009, 11:33 AM
ajpelz ajpelz is offline
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Here is a great excerpt written by Massad Ayoob that explains when lethal force is justified. I hope that this can clear up the debate for those having trouble with the force = force concept.

"Lethal force is justifiable only in a situation of immediate and otherwise unavoidable danger of death or grave bodily harm to oneself, or to another innocent person one has the right under law to protect....Only when killing or crippling force is used or is about to be used against the innocent can a similar level of force be employed by the citizen defender."

Taken from, Explaining the deadly force decision: "self defense in a nutshell." - part 10 - Lethal Force - Column
Shooting Industry, March, 1992 by Massad Ayoob
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