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Old 11-08-2009, 07:20 PM
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Default 38 +P+ 110gr JHP Treasury Ammo Test

As most of you who read any of my posts know, I am not really a fan of light 38s and have heard terrible anecdotes about the Treasury load. I generally use the 38+P+ 147 LEO. However, since reading about armsmaster 270's story about his encounter with an armed subject and how the "T" load saved his life, I decided to test them out for velocity and penetration. Winchester still makes the round in the Ranger LE line, but my Treasury Ammo is the vintage 1983 thing.


Test Gun: S&W Model 28-2 4"

Winchester: Ammo in white and red 50 round boxed marked 38 Special 110gr JHP for Law Enforcement Only with the US treasury dept. specs. and the back. 15% Overpressure

Headstamped 83 WCC +P+
Velocity: 1068fps
Penetrated 2 of the 1 gallon size milk jugs filled with water and was found wedged between #2 and #3 jug. Smooth energy transfer between the jugs.
Expanded to .55

Federal
Headstamped FC LE
Velocity 998fps
Pentrated only 1 of the 1 gallon jugs and barely into the plastic quart size milk jug behind it. Energy transfer occured in the first jug and made a huge water spray. Expanded to .56

Both slugs only peeled backed to the jacket mouth and stopped. Good thing it has a lot of exposed lead or it would not expand at all.

The Treasury Load was carried by the Border Patrol from 1980 until it was pulled from service in 1984. Many law enforcement agencies issued or authorized its use including the Cali Hwy Patrol. The "other" duty load at the time was the W-W or Remington 38+P LSWC-HP commonly known as the FBI load. It was carried by the FBI, and Dallas TX PD to name a few.

It might appear that this load might be ok for home defense against a small target, but this load based on my test takes the cake for being a poor police duty load due to lack of tactical penetration. I know some will disagree strongly and I can understand as some have used it and it worked. It was certainly better than the 158 RNL that many agencies replaced with the "T" Load.

Anyone who carried the round or used it please feel free to chime in.
I am open minded and know that milk jugs and chronographs dont simulate the real world on the street. If you liked/disliked it -let me know please. Also, anyone who can post photos of this stuff would be appreciated as well as I have only one box to compare to.

Last edited by BreakerDan; 11-08-2009 at 07:29 PM.
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Old 11-08-2009, 07:53 PM
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Default T load

I have carried both as well as chrono tested both. First your Federal velocity is way below anything I have ever seen except when fired from a j frame snub with the 1 7/8 barrel. Between the two my testing of different lots over the years shows lows around the 1068 you got but from 4 in 38's not 357's and highs up to around 1180. The last test I did had the Winchester at 1076 from a 3in magnum sp101 and the Federal at 1068. I find that usually the Winchester is a hair faster. In the shootings we had with the loads both worked well from snubs but the Federal had a tendency to fragment badly when fired from 4in or longer barrels.......something the Winchester did not do. The Federal also couldnt penetrate a car door at all. Keep in mind that Federal seemed to change that bullet every year and I believe that the FC LE headstamp ended in 1980-1981. My original issue was the federal in 1980 stamped FC LE and the bullet was not skived and had less exposed lead than later production. The remainder of the Federal I have is marked FC and the last 2 digits of the year...ie FC 85 etc. Funny thing with this load is a lot of people who used it loved it and I know many who got one shot stops and many were fatal. The Border Patrol used the Federal version for a short time and were less than thrilled. It is a load that many people swear by and the rest swear at.
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Old 11-08-2009, 08:08 PM
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There's no reason that 110 grs. ain't enough in a .38 +P, or +P+. I will say that with that light of a weight, Bullet design has to be spot on, or underpenetration is a real possibility. I wouldn't want to run a lighter bullet in that caliber though.

BreakerDan, as admirable of a student as you are of this stuff (O.K., nerd, and I'm guilty too) you should get a block of Perma-Gel, or start running 10% gel so your results are comparable to other gel tests online. FWIW, I never ask anyone to do something I haven't already done myself or wouldn't be willing to do.

Thanks for the write up.
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Old 11-08-2009, 08:30 PM
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I used the treasury load +P+ 110 jhp. When this load was out, it was the round to use. You have to remember that bullet performance and design was just being born. This was as good as it got for 38 power. The bullet design is of old technology. I still have three or four boxes of the stuff new. I used it in my S&W 66 and model 60 back in the early eighties. We also used 158 SWC HP's for a time. By the way my non +P S&W model 60 never blew up from it. By the way it chronied from my 2 inch at 1050.
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Old 11-10-2009, 09:25 AM
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Is 1050 FPS really the best you can expect from 110 gr. +P+ in a 2" barrel? I can safely exceed that with 158 gr. bullets in .38 Special and 147 gr. bullets in the 9mm, both out of 2" barrels. Is it because the 110 gr. bullet is simply way too light for high velocity out of the short barrel or the factories are holding back, even at so-called +P+ pressure levels? At this velocity the light bullet would appear to have no advantage. I have never been a fan of light bullets and have no experience handloading them.

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Old 11-10-2009, 03:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BreakerDan View Post
Winchester: Ammo in white and red 50 round boxed marked 38 Special 110gr JHP for Law Enforcement Only with the US treasury dept. specs. and the back.
Headstamped 83 WCC +P+
Velocity: 1068fps
Thanks BreakerDan for another informative post based upon actual test results. The 110 grain Winchester Treasury loads I tested produced very similar results: 1077 fps from a 4" M15. Mine are older than yours, headstamped 73. I have long though that the many internet references to these loads being super hot were incorrect, and mostly urban legend.
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Old 11-10-2009, 09:36 PM
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Here are some pics of the box of Winchester Treasury Loads that I have. My brass is stamped WCC +P+ 90.







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Old 11-12-2009, 07:35 PM
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The 110JHP used by Treasury (Super-Vel and later Federal) was tested and designed to dump all the energy into the target, without exiting the target. The wound cavity was replicated using "gel blocks" and with the aid of high speed photography. The damage recorded during testing indicated that the ammo would be very effective in close quarters man-to-man combat situations. The criteria was not to penetrate car doors, windshields, or engine blocks. It was and is strictly a man stopper which can do considerable damage. Don't get in front of one.
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Old 11-12-2009, 07:42 PM
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Any chances of finding some?

roaddog28
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Old 11-12-2009, 09:11 PM
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Those are the same boxes I have. In it's time we though we had the right combo. Believing in what you carry along with good tactics is what wins gunfights. We though we were carrying the best.
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Old 11-12-2009, 09:13 PM
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Breakerdan:
we progressed from 158LRN to personally bought 110 supervels to issue FBI load to the issue Treasury Load then transitioned to the 9mm.
We used the Federal 110gr and all our headstamps were FC top and 2 digit year on the bottom as in military ammo none of ours was FC LE.
The winchester box is printed 15-20 % overload from +P. Both fed and win should clock close to each other.
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Last edited by armsmaster270; 11-12-2009 at 09:55 PM.
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Old 11-12-2009, 09:53 PM
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Here is some


The win +P+ should clock @ 1218fps out of a 4" 38 barrel there will be loss out of a .357 barrel.
Both the win and federal should clock close to each other
the win +P+ is 15-20% or 15% above +P pressure depending on when the box was printed
Here is more info on the wound track

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Last edited by armsmaster270; 08-22-2011 at 08:56 AM.
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Old 11-12-2009, 10:23 PM
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Thanks for all the information/pictures armsmaster270.
Very informative post. Looks like if you dont have to shoot
through a barrier, this load would be fine. You guys are slowly
changing my thoughts on the 38 110gr loadings.
I have always been a fan of the FBI 158 LSWC-HP,
but the Treasury load is looking better.
Also too, 38 ammunition has come a long way
in 30 years.
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Old 11-13-2009, 02:25 AM
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Nice shot, Armsmaster. How long did your assailant remain combative after getting shot?
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Old 11-13-2009, 10:26 PM
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After the shot he went 1/2 step, stumbled and went down. Seeing that he landed in the felony prone position, I cuffed him & checked his carotid with neg pulse detected. When the Sgt and backup got there he was uncuffed and the ambulance checked him and left without him.
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Old 06-01-2011, 08:30 PM
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Hello,
I came across a S&W Model 10 38 with 12 cartridges which my friend says came from a box saying Law enforcement only. The headstamp reads as follows:

WCC+P+ 9 8

It looks like nickel brass, then a small strip of copper, with a hollow point on top. Can anyone tell me what the 9, and then the 8 mean after the WCC+P+ ?

Thanks,
Mike
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Old 06-01-2011, 08:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mjking View Post
Hello,
I came across a S&W Model 10 38 with 12 cartridges which my friend says came from a box saying Law enforcement only. The headstamp reads as follows:

WCC+P+ 9 8

It looks like nickel brass, then a small strip of copper, with a hollow point on top. Can anyone tell me what the 9, and then the 8 mean after the WCC+P+ ?

Thanks,
Mike
The 9 and 8 are the date of manufacture i.e. 1998.
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Old 06-05-2011, 01:34 PM
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Hello

A while back a buddy of mine gave me a box of those Win +P+ loads to shoot and see what they do.



On two separate occasions I shot a group of those, along with the other stuff I was doin..





They were shot out of a 4” 686 at 25 yards, and the ambient temp was in the 40°- 50°’s. On a warmer day velocities might approach 1100fps, depending on how temperature sensitive this particular ammo is.

I was pleased to see that this ammo produced some very tight groups, although it shot a bit lower than everything else. Not a big deal, a minor sight adjustment would fix that.

Back in the early '80's I still had some of the L.A.S.D. issue rounds we used and ran some of them across my new Oehler 33 chronograph. They were a .38 Special 110gr JHP +P+ made by Federal. They clocked 1100 fps on a warm day out of a 4" Mod 15.
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Old 06-05-2011, 01:54 PM
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Friend of mine got into a shoot out in Queens, NY a couple of years back. Robbers pushed in as he was opening check cashing place. Forced to open safe. Think he said there were three of them. None wore masks. They were armed with "large automatics". First opportunity, he drew his S&W 36 loaded with 110's, stepped left and crouched and fired all five rounds. Two hits on one of the bad guys. They wrestled the revolver away from him and took off. The guy he shot didn't "act like he was shot". The guy that got hit was found in Brooklyn, NY bleeding out, though. My friend should have been shooting 158 grain semi-wadcutters. That was our department load when he retired. He bought 110's from a gun store because he ran out of ammo. He was never a guns and ammo guy. Just did his job for 20 + years and retired. His default training kicked in: stepped left and crouched, punched the gun out and fired. Should have had a heavier round. Bottom line: he survived. We now use the Speer God Dot 135 grain +P round. I sent him several boxes right after his shooting. He ended up getting a S&W M&P .40.
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Old 06-05-2011, 08:54 PM
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In the early 80's a friend of mine in a jurisdiction inside of what was then mine shot an armed robber with one round of the Winchester 110 +p+. I worked the OIS. IIRC the round got some liver, and lodged in the muscles near his spine..the surgeons left it where it was. X rays showed very little expansion, however, upon being shot the bad guy crumpled to the ground, thereby ending the gunfight.
His bosses in the PD were unimpressed, and were looking for a new round to shoot....they settled on the FBI Load, which was used to good effect in two OIS shootings within the next few years. Shortly thereafter, self loading pistols were adopted...
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Old 08-22-2011, 09:05 AM
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I didn't care for the WW 110 +P+ compared to the Federal 110 +P+ as the Federal had more of a hollow cavity Here is the slug taken from the Rapist I shot Through the sternum, heart, lower lobe of the lung stopping just under the skin in the back.


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Old 08-22-2011, 09:41 AM
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About a year ago I ran across a stash of ammo owned by a recently deceased FBI agent who in retirement became a RSO for the qualifiying range. The story as I understand it was that the local cops and other agents would give him all their "extra" or left over ammo at the range. This guy had amassed quite a stockpile of unique stuff.

I ended up with boxes of the "FBI load" from each manufacturer As well as some "Treasury loads" in addition to many other boxes of unique ammo.

Here's a few pictures of some of the stuff I picked out that now resides in my stash. These might be of interest to this thread. Some of you may not have seen these loads or boxes/part#'s before.

Federal "FBI loads"



The Remington's are on the left - (2) boxes of .38 Spl. (+P) Part# R38S12



In this picture they are the Winchester Western's on the right - 38 Special 158 gr. Hollow Point +P Part# X38SPD, next to them you will see the "Treasury load" - Winchester .38 Special +P+ 147 Gr. JHP Part#Q4296



Also an interesting load is the Federal Premium .38 Special High Velocity (+P+) 147 Gr. Hydra-Shok JHP Part# P38HS2G which is kind of a "competitor" to the "Treasury load".



Here's all of what I purchased from this lot.



I hope this was of interest to you all. I suppose I could take pictures of the individual rounds if someone desired.

I'm not going to tell you what I paid for all of this as it would make ya'll sick.

Have fun and be safe.
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Old 08-22-2011, 05:04 PM
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Seriously, another 2 year old thread brought back from the dead for a second time!!!
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Old 09-05-2011, 08:33 AM
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Sorry if this has been answered already, but does anyone make an equivilant of this round or the FBI load today?

I have Hornady Critical Defense 110 gr +P which state on the box they go 1090 ft per second at the muzzle. Seem like they would be similar to the treasury load in theory.
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Old 09-05-2011, 10:39 AM
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Nightshade2x, I'd be interested in seeing a better photo of the end label and the round from the Fed 38Spl +P+ that's marked "for law enforcement only" that's to the left of the Fed 38Spl Match box.
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Old 09-05-2011, 11:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JayBird686 View Post
Sorry if this has been answered already, but does anyone make an equivilant of this round or the FBI load today?

I have Hornady Critical Defense 110 gr +P which state on the box they go 1090 ft per second at the muzzle. Seem like they would be similar to the treasury load in theory.
Sgammo.com has them in stock for $21.95 a box of 50, right now
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Old 09-06-2011, 07:03 PM
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Groo here
There was an FBI load that was used in their M-66 and M-65 revolvers.
It was made up in 38 cases but was closer to mid-range 357
pressures.
This ammo was made up this way to help with the short extractors
on the 2 1/2 in M-66's ][38s extract easier as they are shorter]
Also this ammo was not avable or allowed to be given to any
other group or officer as the high pressures could damage
smaller 38's .
I suspect that it was the old 38-44 load or similar...just a different bullet..
Also this was before +P and +P+ was used.
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Old 01-13-2012, 10:04 PM
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I understand the Texas Department of Public Safety had 158gr jacketed bullets loaded over 12gr 2400 in .38spl cases in the old days. The issue weapon was the M-28, probably didn't worry too much about pressure.
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Old 05-17-2014, 11:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ddixie884 View Post
I understand the Texas Department of Public Safety had 158gr jacketed bullets loaded over 12gr 2400 in .38spl cases in the old days. The issue weapon was the M-28, probably didn't worry too much about pressure.
Dixie,
Unless they carried that load in the '50's, which I'd be unaware of, the load that the Texas Highway Patrol carried for decades was the Federal 125 grain SJHP screaming around 1500 fps and thumping an impressive 590 ft/lbs of 'boom' on the bad guy's side of the brouhaha.

They carried this until they switched over to Sig Sauer DA/SA pistols in 1991, specifically the P220 and P226, which were loaded with crappy Ranger SXT JHP's (Black Talon by any other name) in 230 gr for the .45 ACP and 147 gr. for the 9mm, respectively.

Both of these were quite wisely dropped like a muffin with a booger on it, around about 1997 or so. That's when they went to one weapon, the DA/SA Sig P226 in 357Sig loaded with CCI Lawman 125 gr, which they still carry today, because it is very, very effective. I believe it was around 2004 or 2005 that they slipped over to the same gun/round, except it was the Sig DAK in P226.

Not sure if the whole debacle with the Smith & Wesson M&P's in 9mm is going to stick or not, apparently they fell apart like Tinker Toys during range work and are on hiatus. Sadly, if they come back, the plan was to load them with 147 gr 9mm JHP's, which didn't work for **** before, so not sure why they're returning to a bad idea that was wisely ditched over 15 years ago.

Anyway, long response to your question, but no, I don't think they ever issued a .38 load for their S&W 28 Highway Patrolman wheelguns.

However, I will endeavor to find out...
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Old 05-18-2014, 02:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BreakerDan View Post
It might appear that this load might be ok for home defense against a small target, but this load based on my test takes the cake for being a poor police duty load due to lack of tactical penetration.
The Treasury Load (110 grain +P+) was indeed a poor load for penetration. I will simply point out, however, that the load was developed in response to the now discredited US Government NIJ tests which created the RII (Relative Incapacitation Index), which if I recall, placed too much emphasis on temporary wound cavity and too little emphasis on deep penetration to get to vital organs. The load did what was expected of it. Unfortunately, the wrong assumptions were made, and that is why no one uses the loads which emphasize temporary wound cavity by early expansion at the expense of deep penetration to get to vital organs.
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Old 05-18-2014, 02:43 AM
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...Sadly, if they come back, the plan was to load them with 147 gr 9mm JHP's, which didn't work for **** before, so not sure why they're returning to a bad idea that was wisely ditched over 15 years ago...

Because since '86 everyone is obsessed with penetration. Too much so IMO. I still have some of the old Fed. 125 gr. .357 Mag. ctgs. you mentioned but rarely shoot them as they give a lot of "backblast" off the forcing cone. I've hit over 1,400 fps with them in a Model 13 3" HB and a GP100 3" as well. If I were forced into a shootout today using a .357 Mag. I cannot think of a better round to have in the chambers.
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Old 05-18-2014, 03:21 AM
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Excellent information from all. My information in part is personal experience and some told to me. While a policemen in Wyoming and very wet behind the ears I carried a 6" Model 19, initially loaded with 158 grain .38 special ammunition, Speers I think. When a Deputy inquired as to my carry load, he told me those really weren't superb and suggested his carry ammo, Treasury ammunition from Winchester I believe. I fired them in and in my experience they had a bit more " git in their giddyup ", as compared to my civilian ammunition. I had no Chronograph and it was my ear as well as a slight increase in recoil.
Roll the clock forward and the agency I retired from in Fl had a great, at that time, staff of armorers who really took an interest in their jobs and the true training of their charges on the range. 10,000 pushups for anyone dropping a weapon on the range in the academy. Yep, one poor soul did and yes, he had to do them in the 15 weeks of training. Jeez, things were different in the " stone age ". Anyhow, one of the instructors from my agency assisted me with ammo one day while at our range on my time practicing and offered me a box of Federal Treasury loads he had gotten from FLETC while there for a training class and I found them to be just as potent as the Winchesters from a Decade prior. While we never were issued this ammo, the armorers tried to no avail, I was assured by all I encountered who did use it that it was effective but barrier penetration was lacking. On a side note, I read somewhere that several State Police agencies have issued the Plus P Plus .38 ammo in the past although not the 110 grain variety. Michigan Troopers used a 125 grain version. Alas, my agency generally issued whatever happened to be the " state bid " ammunition that particular year. We were all just happy it wasn't the LRN types as had been the issue in the past. Sorry to ramble fellas.
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Old 05-18-2014, 10:27 AM
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Seriously, another 2 year old thread brought back from the dead for a second time!!!
And now it's going on again after nearly five years.
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Old 05-18-2014, 08:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boge View Post
Because since '86 everyone is obsessed with penetration. Too much so IMO. I still have some of the old Fed. 125 gr. .357 Mag. ctgs. you mentioned but rarely shoot them as they give a lot of "backblast" off the forcing cone. I've hit over 1,400 fps with them in a Model 13 3" HB and a GP100 3" as well. If I were forced into a shootout today using a .357 Mag. I cannot think of a better round to have in the chambers.

Agreed. Once one digs deeply into the whole '"Penetration is everything!" argument, the FBI Miami shootout will inevitably rear its head. Passionate opinions bloom on all sides regarding this event, but IMHO the FBI's reaction to it with their "Penetration! Penetration! Penetration!" screed (borne out of their 1987 Wound Ballistics sponsored 'study') was simply a rouse to save face over the fact the Agents on the scene were equipped by the FBI with horrendous tactical training and a near total lack of understanding of the limitations of their abilities versus highly trained, equipped and motivated opponents.

It is way too long to get into here, but the FBI's "ballistics study" blamed much of the shootout's results on a single Winchester Silvertip 115 gr 9mm that was fired, hit one of the bad guys and inflicted an 'non-survivable wound', but did not 'penetrate deep enough' to cause the baddie (a guy named Platt) to die soon enough.

The FBI never really owned the fact they did a huge disservice to their Agents by not giving them the training they needed to deal with dudes like this. This would include that the one Agent that fired the single 9mm Silvertip and hit Platt with a fatal shot also missed from about 7-10 yards with around 12 other shots. That's terrible combat marksmanship from such a close distance, but is that the Agent's fault? No, the FBI at that point wasn't interested in tactical combat training for its Agents and never really desired to make them 'gunfighters.'

So the FBI did the huge bureaucratic 'CYA Dance' and blamed the Miami Shootout results on poor lack of penetration by the single 9mm round; it simply didn't do enough to kill instantly. But they made little mention of the fact that had Platt been hit in the vitals with an additional 5, 8 or 10 rounds, he would surely have died on the spot. Or that ramming a car driven by two dangerous, heavily armed bank robbers in a residential area by a civilian's house was a stupid idea. Or that the Miami-Dade SWAT team could have been notified and, with highly trained, skillful tactical officers and appropriate equipment, could have taken those two turds down hard but far more tactically and safely.

Now, I am NOT criticizing the Agents on the scene, nor am I trying to Monday morning QB their actions in a self righteous way (I've never been in a gunfight, hope I never will be) but the 1986 Miami FBI Shootout, aside from maybe the Shootout at the OK Corral, is the single most studied gunfight in history. Lessons are to be learned from studying it, and one of the biggest is that the tactics you bring to the fight are FAR more important that if your pistol bullets penetrate at least 18".

This is relevant to the discussion about the Treasury load above as well, because whatever load you're carrying, if you can't hit your target with multiple rounds in a vital area, then it doesn't matter if you carrying a .44 Magnum loaded with Dirty Harry memorial loads or a .22LR you bought used from the Mossad. Hitting your target multiple times in a vital area is the #1 rule.

Text straight from the FBI report following Miami - "It is essential to bear in mind that the single most critical factor remains penetration."
Bull ****

That's only true if you're covering your federal @$$ over an embarrassing shootout in which the poor training you provided your Agents got them hurt and/or killed. Penetration is an overrated objective, and shooting a round that will easily go 18 inches deep through an adult will eventually result in rounds going completely through your subject and risking other souls. This is why most every LEO agency dropped the 147 gr 9mm after the reports and results of several shootings with it started piling up - the 147 gr 9mm is the poster child, spokesman and anointed Pope of the FBI's 'Penetration' religion, and it worked very, very poorly unless one got lucky and hit the spinal cord or put one in the brain box.

No velocity means no expansion, and no expansion means little energy delivery inside the target, but rather kinetic energy pushing the round thru and thru. Can it kill? Sure, given the perfect circumstances any bullet shot into a human can kill, but the "Super Penetrators" don't 'STOP' which is far more important, in my opinion.

Shooting people with ice picks is a great way to save meat if you're hunting, but it's a crappy way to put a dangerous felon down NOW that's trying to kill someone innocent. If the "Penetration is Everything!" manta was true, then NATO hardball 9mm would be the deadliest handgun ammo known to man. Newsflash: It ain't. Not by a long, long stretch.

Shooting accuracy is #1, followed by safe and effective tactics at #2. Anyone can concoct a situation where any given LEO round can be found to come up short, but rounds specifically designed simply to 'penetrate' scare me hairless when thinking of depending on them to save my life. And unless one is about to be attacked by a fifteen pound slab of 10% Ballistic Gelatin draped with 2 layers of denim, the "Super Penetrators" are not my Holy Grail round of choice.

Well, sorry fellas, I didn't mean to 'Go On Rant' but I've heard this 'penetration' stuff from so many instructors and administrators that worship at the alter of the FBI for so many years it's become a hot button with me. Surprisingly, I disagree with them.

Boge, you're exactly right about the old state police 125 gr .357 Mag round. If the FBI's All-Knowing Trash Heap of Knowledge was right, then all those decades of turds getting smoked by Troopers with the 125 gr .357 Mag round should never have happened. They're essentially saying "All that history and documentation? Well, it was wrong. This is what is actually right."

Of course, this is the same federal thinking that screwed up the 10mm they eventually went to, making their load so anemic that the .40 S&W was invented, a small round that outperformed the FBI 10mm. How in the Hell do you screw up the 10mm? Amazing.

Personally, for a daily carry designed to just get the bad guy off me so I could retreat, a S&W 640 loaded with that 110 gr +P+ is not a bad option. I'm not going to be shooting through doors or walls like a road Trooper or street Police anyway. I personally think that eye to eye, gut to gut in a combat situation, it is not a bad round.

But given any choice, I'll take a 135 gr to 155 gr 10mm out of a Delta Elite or S&W 1006 as ideal. Excusing those for their eccentricity and in favor of a more conventional set up, gimme a Sig P229 loaded with CCI Lawman Gold Dot 125 gr .357Sig JHP's.

But far more importantly, I'll be heading back to the range for more practice, so as to make sure I hopefully hit WHAT I have to, WHEN I have to.




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Old 05-19-2014, 12:38 AM
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I'm going to disagree with Mr. TexasRaider. The simple fact is, the Miami Shootout is talked about much, and was the catalyst for change to both a larger caliber and the end of the revolver era, but that the changes of both were not directly a result of the shootout, but rather the major event that brought finality to changes that were in the work for several years. The FBI didn't just have the Miami incident and the next day dropped the .38 special, 9mm, and revolvers in one giant turn around, the truth is the .38 special and the 9mm had been under performing for decades, and were slated for replacement. The revolver wasn't a big factor in the shootout, but the FBI took the shootout as a convenient time to switch to auto loaders exclusively.

So to criticize one shootout, even if it was the one associated with the changes of both caliber and pistol type, is to avoid the larger issue of two calibers that have had under penetration issues for their entire existences. Miami wasn't the first time either cartridge had failed, not by a long shot, and both the .38 special and the 9mm have failed in extraordinary circumstances again and again. Real life combat is not shooting at targets standing still and not firing back, and sometimes shots must be made at odd angles and must penetrate deep to kill, and the replaced cartridges had failed one time to many. Both of the real life records of both cartridges is horrendous in the harder real life situations, and deserved to be replaced.

The truth is, Dove's first bullet was perfectly placed for the angle, and in truth, the 9mm did fail in that scenario, there is no way around that. Some 9mm defenders have often times tried to claim that a different cartridge wound't have made a difference, but the autopsy and reports make this an outright fabrication, the bullet path was in direct line to Platt's heart, and other pistols would have ended the fight. These are facts. Dove made the perfect shot at the angle he had, and it was the cartridge, not Dove, that failed that day. Again, this is not the first time a 9mm has failed to penetrate and stop attackers.

The truth is, handgun rounds are poor rounds, low in power, weight, and sectional density. They have a knack for stopping short of arteries and organs, they cozy up to bones instead of breaking them, and generally fail in ways that would surprise you. A poor angle, a leather jacket, some obstacle, and the standard pistol cartridge runs out of steam and fails. Since shallow penetration is the most common of failures, it SHOULD be the major concern of self defense gunners, LEO, ect. Shot placement is an easy thing to tout in perfect circumstances, but in real life sometimes you need enough penetration, enough power, enough bullet, to get through enough tissue and obstacle to get the job done. The whole 22 vs. 44 magnum is ridiculous, as the 44 can stop an attacker behind more obstacle, punch through bones and tissue in real life shots that have to be made that the 22 would fail at.

That being said, the 110 treasury round is a complete joke, considering that there are vastly superior rounds available. The round chronically under penetrates in a revolver that under penetrates. As said before, the only reason such a round was used was due to 20% gel tests and the junk science of temporary cavities created in gel tests, which proved to be worthless in handgun results in real life. The result was a round that was neither devastating or penetrating, and the round was quickly replaced by many services and departments because of its poor real life results. The treasury load was the representation of a fad, and now the round's only legitimate place in the world is to be discussed on forums such as this.

The range queens will always claim that any real life failures are ALWAYS the fault of poor marksmanship, no matter how difficult the situation, no matter what circumstance. No matter what happens, the range queens will always claim that a little more time on the range and taking 20 more seconds to make the shot would have saved the day and it is all your fault, and never the weapon or cartridge. Then they get up and proclaim that the lighter rounds are always superior in every case, because they are easier to shoot, and reason that a cartridge that treats them well on a leisurely range day must be the best cartridge to take into the fray. The same people who proclaimed that law enforcement only needed 32 Long, and then said 38 special was terrific, even after the learned failures of the Maori uprisings and other imperial battles that showed the superiority of larger rounds. The same people argue to this day that you need to shoot lighter loads, smaller calibers, and still ignore real life results.

If I'm going on to long its because I'm getting a little tired of every poor bullet, poor load, or smaller caliber being defended by the same, tired, worn out lines about how its always the shooter's fault, go ahead and carry 22 shorts in a derringer because its all the same. People take a lot of time and energy to take real life results and rationalize reasons to ignore them to believe what they wish to believe, and to many people defend what they would like to shoot instead of what they should shoot. The 158 lswchp won out for a reason, and the 110 disappeared for a reason. The treasury load should remain a lesson in junk science, poor design, and left as a memory of the 1980's.
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Old 05-19-2014, 02:26 AM
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Duckford,
I appreciate your response, and please understand that in my rebuttal, I'm not trying to pick a fight or to instigate any negative feelings or brew any hostility. I understand that sometimes folks just disagree, which is fine by me. But I would like to review some of your points...

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Originally Posted by Duckford View Post
The truth is, Dove's first bullet was perfectly placed for the angle, and in truth, the 9mm did fail in that scenario, there is no way around that....it was the cartridge, not Dove, that failed that day. Again, this is not the first time a 9mm has failed to penetrate and stop attackers.

One round hitting out of 15 at a range of maybe 10 yards is not the fault of the round. Hitting a target with a ratio of 0.6667% is pathetic. Hitting Platt 11, 13 or 15 times would certainly have ended his run. You cannot say that one round failed and that is why the day was a tragedy, simply because no LEO with any sense would rely on the impact of only one round to end a threat. You keep shooting until the threat stops. Platt hadn't stopped, and the Agent missed at least 13 of the 15 shots fired. That in no way can be blamed on a single 9mm round.

The truth is, handgun rounds are poor rounds, low in power, weight, and sectional density....

I agree, but it is very hard to conceal an M1 Garand under a baggy Rolling Stones t-shirt.

Shot placement is an easy thing to tout in perfect circumstances, but in real life sometimes you need enough penetration, enough power, enough bullet, to get through enough tissue and obstacle to get the job done.

Pirelli tires has slogan that fits this argument: Power is nothing without control. Shot placement IS everything because there is a grand jury and civil lawyer attached to EVERY bullet you fire at another human. If you can't have accuracy, they you are spraying and praying and that will put you in prison or the poor house. Additionally, countless LEO's have performed very well in shootouts, hitting their target in far less than 'ideal circumstances'...it is called training to the point of reflexive muscle memory. Blowing holes through a wall or car door is no substitute for being able to hit what you have to hit. Besides, I'd be careful about advising folks to shoot through things you can't see through...that's be a good way to lose a civil case when asked "Did you actually see what you were shooting at?" A civil jury only needs to be pushed over the 51% point of ‘preponderance of the evidence’ to find you in the wrong. With those scary odds, the shooter has better be able to say he saw and could identify what he was shooting at.

The whole 22 vs. 44 magnum is ridiculous, as the 44 can stop an attacker behind more obstacle, punch through bones and tissue in real life shots that have to be made that the 22 would fail at.

It is not ridiculous. Both can kill, and many folks carry lighter rounds because it makes for a lighter pistol. However, I never said a .22 was better than a .44. What I said was it didn't matter which you carried if you couldn't hit your target.

That being said, the 110 treasury round is a complete joke, considering that there are vastly superior rounds available. The round chronically under penetrates in a revolver that under penetrates.

First off, I'm betting that if you got shot in the gut with that Treasury Load, you would certainly not be laughing and calling it a joke. As others on this board with far more personal experience in gunfights than you or I put together will ever have, it has stopped and stopped effectively. Yes, there are better rounds available now, but it wasn’t a bad round back in the day in certain circumstances. Just because a 2014 Corvette Stingray is mind bendingly fast now doesn't mean a 1995 Corvette ZR-1 is obsolete and suddenly slow. Last on this point...what exactly is a "revolver that under penetrates" ?

The treasury load was the representation of a fad, and now the round's only legitimate place in the world is to be discussed on forums such as this.

No, I think if it were used in a gut to gut shooting, the recipient would stop with extreme expedience. However, if the shooter resorted to shooting one round at a time to see if it penetrated enough to stop the bad guy, then yeah that’s a problem. In self defense or police work, when faced with a threat of imminent deadly force, you shoot until the threat stops. Five rounds of Treasury Load through the chest area will certainly end any fight. Other rounds might be more effective, but again that doesn't make this load retroactively useless.

The range queens will always claim that any real life failures are ALWAYS the fault of poor marksmanship, no matter how difficult the situation, no matter what circumstance. No matter what happens, the range queens will always claim that a little more time on the range and taking 20 more seconds to make the shot would have saved the day and it is all your fault, and never the weapon or cartridge.

No, I didn't say that. I said that in the priorities of gun fighting, I believed that Shot Placement was #1, effective and safe tactics were #2. A shooter has to be proficient in shooting first, the equipment is of secondary nature. If not, how could guys like Wyatt Earp, Wild Bill Hickok and Dallas Stoudenmire have killed so effectively with equipment that is outrageously outdated and ineffective compared to today's offerings? Shot placement and tactics.

Then they get up and proclaim that the lighter rounds are always superior in every case, because they are easier to shoot, and reason that a cartridge that treats them well on a leisurely range day must be the best cartridge to take into the fray.

Again, no. Lighter, faster rounds like the old Trooper 125 gr 357 Magnum and today's 125 gr 357Sig are actually harder to shoot faster, because of their violent velocities. They inarguably work very well, but also require a greater level of skill to shoot fast and accurate. In fact, the jello junkies favorite 9mm, the weak-knee 147 gr, is a much softer, easier delight to shoot; rapid fire is like popping off .38 Special wadcutters. With outstanding shot placement and good tactics, it can kill, but history has shown that compared to the aforementioned rounds, it doesn't produce the quick sudden 'stops' LEO’s really like.

The same people who proclaimed that law enforcement only needed 32 Long, and then said 38 special was terrific, even after the learned failures of the Maori uprisings and other imperial battles that showed the superiority of larger rounds. The same people argue to this day that you need to shoot lighter loads, smaller calibers, and still ignore real life results.

Real life results is looking at street data and back engineering rounds to match those that work. Again, no one with any sense or experience can argue that the 357 Magnum round of yesteryear isn't' the all time Street King of lightening stops. Loading 9mm's, 10mm's, 357 Sigs or even 40's to replicate the 357 Magnum’s performance makes sense, and it works.

I sense your annoyance comes from my not mentioning larger caliber rounds earlier, such as the .44 or .45. Well, I didn't exclude those from my diatribe above out of some bias against them, it fact my argument had nothing to do with lighter calibers per se. The most effective .45 ACP I ever saw tested was a Remington 185 gr +P running around 1200 fps out of a 3rd Gen S&W 4506 and it almost blew the water tank apart. The energy in that round was colossally devastating, and no witness to its effectiveness would argue that a slow poke 230 gr ball or Ranger SXT could be its equal. Properly loaded, I'd love to carry a circa-1985 Lew Horton custom S&W M657 .41 Magnum, but I'm unaware of any factory loads that would meet the criteria I look for. And using hand loads is a one-way ticket to the crossbar motel. And with proper tuning, I'm sure .45LC or .44 Specials can be created that would light up the sky, but I'm unaware of any that I'd be willing to be my life on and again, haven’

Oh, and in using the example of the New Zealand Maori wars from over 150 years ago to reinforce your point, you actually reinforced my point; that which worked years ago can still work today, even in the face of advancing technology. You say that the revolvers of that period worked against the foes of that day. To extend your point, are you saying that a .44 Beaumont Adams percussion revolver is an advisable carry piece in 2014? I'll answer for you...maybe, because with great shot placement and good tactics it could work, just as it did in 1870. Just as it stopped threats back in it's day, a .38 loaded with 110 gr +P+ putting 5 quick ones in a target's gut in 1977 could do the same trick. But again ONLY if the shooter could hit what they're shooting at consistently. Once more, and thanks for supporting me on this, the hardware (technology and equipment) is not near as critical as is the software (thinking, training and skill level).


If I'm going on to long its because I'm getting a little tired of every poor bullet, poor load, or smaller caliber being defended by the same, tired, worn out lines about how its always the shooter's fault, go ahead and carry 22 shorts in a derringer because its all the same.

Not at all. I would never suggest that and I didn't before. But an excellent shooter trained very well who can hit the target where it needs to be hit using a mediocre round/pistol combo will rule the day every time over an average shooter who can't hit reliably even when carrying his Duke Nukem Limited Edition Viking forged 88mm hand cannon loaded with radioactive, nuclear charged demon killing hollow point boulders. Or simply put, a good hit with a .22 beats a miss with a .44 any day of the week.

People take a lot of time and energy to take real life results and rationalize reasons to ignore them to believe what they wish to believe, and to many people defend what they would like to shoot instead of what they should shoot. The 158 lswchp won out for a reason, and the 110 disappeared for a reason.

No one is ignoring anything. Both rounds are still being made and being shot. Both can stop and both can kill. And I never said that the 110 was the end all, be all of .38 loads. I simply said that in a gut to gut shooting, pouring five of those quickly and accurately into your target would end the fight. They are lethal. They may not be AS effective as you would like, but they ARE lethal. They certainly would ruin your or my day if we got popped with one in the sternum, much less five really quickly.

The treasury load should remain a lesson in junk science, poor design, and left as a memory of the 1980's.

I'd rather carry the 110 than a jello-specific designed round. Now THAT is junk science. The idea that because a bullet of any stripe can plow through 20" of gelatin makes it a man stopper is laugh out loud silly. Is gelatin useful? To a point. But the dynamics that have been on display in the street over the last 20 years have clearly shown when the following are used:

#1 Shot Placement is quick and accurate, where it needs to be
#2 Effective and intelligent tactics are employed
#3 Powerful, energy-delivering rounds traveling at Warp Speed are used multiple times in quick follow up succession on the target....

....then the bad guy falls over with a bad case of deaditis.

The thing is though, you can substitute less effective rounds for #3 and still come out on top. 20th Century gunfighting heroes like Jelly Bryce, Jim Cirillo and Walter Walsh didn't have the gee whiz tech we have, but they 'saw the elephant' numerous times and came out on top because of #1 and #2 far more than #3. It is software first, hardware second. When the software is running right, you can use a variety of loads, even Treasury Loads, to win the day.

Just one old Irishman's opinion; your mileage will almost definitely vary.

Have a good night.


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Old 05-19-2014, 03:39 AM
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I have never in my life derided the 9mm ctg. However, I have never been a believer in the "heavy for caliber" 147 gr. loads as IMO it only turns the 9mm into a lumbering .38 Special. Many today say that this newest Generation of 147 gr. 9mm bullets (primarily the Fed. HST) are different. That may well be, however I don't know enough about them nor have read of many Street result accounts either. I do know that in the 80's the Federal 9mm 115 gr. +p+ BPLE changed the playing field starting with the ISP and then the BP like no other semi-auto ctg. before. Yes, the .38 Super trumped it in velocity, but there was no real effective JHP in its early conception. The BPLE started dropping bad guys like cholera. The reports were overwhelming from those who saw firsthand. Interestingly, the FBI chose to ignore this and relied upon the totally flawed "Computer Man" theory that resulted in the wretched 1st Gen. of 147 gr. 9mm JHP's, with Win. leading the way if I recall.

Today, there seems to a more general push back to a "medium" weight 9mm JHP with the superb Speer 124 +p Gold Dot leading the pack and Win. has since introduced that weight as well, while still keeping their legendary 127 gr. +p+ JHP in the lineup.

It is clearly deductive reasoning that tells us that velocity is a factor in the 9mm's success as one only has to correlate the blatant difference between a .38 Special 125 JHP and a .357 Mag. 125 gr. JHP. Something happens when a certain threshold is broken. Some say that is circa. 1,300 fps for a handgun round. Some say that is total malarkey. However, no one can deny the stellar Street results of the 9mm 115 gr. +p+ JHP nor the .357 Mag. 125 gr. JHP and in the end, reality trumps theory. Would you rather trust your safety & well being to a round that has thousands of incidents verifying its credibility, or would you rather choose one that some Poindexter who flies the "brown bomber" all day at a desk theorizes is better for you?
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Old 05-19-2014, 03:58 PM
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Groo here
OK I will say it , the 9mm and the 38spec are mouse guns.
Having shot seen shot and talked about many smaller animals hit
with them with many different loads and how they failed,I must conclude
Mouse guns they are.
The 357mag stops things hard,and by extention so must the 357sig.
If correct bullets are used.
Fast expanding bullets are the key,something easy for a revolver but harder for an auto and the feed ramp .
The 40S&W is in the same boat as the 9mm in that with a correct weight bullet speeds are on the edge of not working.
The 10mm is the 357mag of the pair with all the pluses and minuses.
A 41 and 44 mag can be made to do what ever you need
And the 44 spec, 45olt and acp through big chunks of lead.
The point of this is , At The Time, what load was better, compaired to
the 158gr rn.
Answer ANY OTHER LOAD.
Now is 40 to 50 years of shooting to add to our knowledge.
Cause as much pain as possible and cause the person to quit.
Cause as much bleeding as possible so the person will faint. [ 10 to 30 sec or more.
or turn off the computer .....
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Old 05-19-2014, 05:06 PM
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In the early '80's I shot a hostage taker w/my issued M15 loaded w/the +P FBI round. I hit the bad guy (BG) in the neck, chest & upper leg putting him down and saving the hostage, who had a large knife placed in his mouth by the BG before I fired from just beyond arms length. All I know is that the issued round did the job and saved both the victim & me.

I'm far from an expert but still carry the +P FBI round in my J frame b/c of my experience.
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Old 05-19-2014, 06:04 PM
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Well, this has been one of those all-too-seldom thread topics which I found myself wanting to read to the end.

Being of an age where some of the stuff mentioned was actually contemporary to me, once upon a time, probably helped make it interesting ... but, so too did some of the experiences, observations and comments of gentlemen of a loosely, ahem, similar age group.

Yes, there were some mistakes made throughout the years when it came to what we expected duty ammo to be able to accomplish under a variety of circumstances, fired from both short and long belt guns.

Personally, I've always thought that more opportunities for mistakes, misconceptions and over-optimistic expectations resulted from the training philosophies and practices of the day.

One of the reasons we can still buy the light, middle & heavy bullet weight loads in a variety of calibers is that people are still willing to use all of them, and for reasons that may vary quite a bit.

The Winchester 110gr .38 Spl +P+ Treasury Load? I remember when a close friend was required to use it in his M60 in the late 70's when he was working for the CHP. His M60 was inspected and maintained by the agency, so he used what they gave (and told him) to use and called it a day. He qualified and carried issued .357 Magnum 125gr JHP's, as well as the .38 Spl 110gr +P+ loads, depending on which field office he was assigned to, and whatever revolver/duty ammunition they had in-stock at any given time. He worried about other things over which he actually had some control from one day to the next.

FWIW, I remember when we were talking back about the time of his retirement, and just prior to mine, comparing observations from our additional responsibilities as firearms trainers for our respective agencies. At one point he said something that echoed what another person from that agency was once quoted to have said, which is that the standard 180gr JHP .40 that had been in-service since about '90 had actually acquired a better track record of street effectiveness in stopping threats than even the 125gr Magnum load had done for them in previous times (or the 110gr +P+ load). Maybe some training changes helped things along? Dunno. History is ... history, and always subject to revision and interpretation, right?

All well, it's still a handgun, and not all of us have the ability to indulge our personal preferences, desires or whims.

I can say that I was once in the right place at the right time to help dispose of 20-odd cases of the 110gr +P+ load (not from my friend's agency) that had been recycled out of service and was set aside for disposal. It made for some fine shooting from an early M640 (one of those marked as being rated for +P+ loads in the frame window), and I got in a lot of training & practice time helping dispose of it.

I actually came across 2 or 3 boxes of that W-W 110gr +P+ load, unexpectedly, a while back. I'll probably get around to shooting it someday.

I tend to carry one or another of the +P loads in bullet weights of 125gr, 130gr, 135gr or 158gr in my own J's nowadays. (I use some standard pressure 110's in a pristine 37-2, though.)

I tend to worry more about my accuracy and ability to try and make rapid, effective hits than I do any specific combination of penetration/expansion. Accurate, well-placed hits are optimal ... and if an attacker's intervening limb (arm) is in the way, or the 'wrong' angle of a shoulder capsule gets in the way, or too much heavy clothing, auto glass, etc?

Well, that's why I load all 5 cylinder charge holes in my J's, and practice making 'precision/aimed' shots under the most demanding conditions I can safely create on our training range (or which a current qual course-of-fire may throw at me, since I'm not primarily responsible for devising all of them anymore ).

I guess you could say I worry more about Mindset & Skillset than I do any particular ammo nowadays. I figure that just about the time I feel I've finally the "best answer" to the ammo question, someone will either change the rules, they'll change ammo vendors, the OTC market will stop having it available, or something else will toss my self-satisfied feeling into a cocked hat.

Things happen. We deal with we're facing and try not to resort to useless whining or complaining. (Hopefully, anyway.)

Stay well guys.
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Old 05-19-2014, 06:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boge View Post
I have never in my life derided the 9mm ctg. However, I have never been a believer in the "heavy for caliber" 147 gr. loads as IMO it only turns the 9mm into a lumbering .38 Special.

Roger that, I’m with all the way to the bank on that, pal!

I do know that in the 80's the Federal 9mm 115 gr. +p+ BPLE changed the playing field starting with the ISP and then the BP like no other semi-auto ctg. before. Yes, the .38 Super trumped it in velocity, but there was no real effective JHP in its early conception. The BPLE started dropping bad guys like cholera. The reports were overwhelming from those who saw firsthand. Interestingly, the FBI chose to ignore this and relied upon the totally flawed "Computer Man" theory that resulted in the wretched 1st Gen. of 147 gr. 9mm JHP's, with Win. leading the way if I recall.

As Ed McMahon used to say, “You are correct, sir!” If I remember right, their scale actually assigned a ‘negative’ value to the .380ACP, which begged the question, would one feel BETTER if shot by it? It made little sense.

Today, there seems to a more general push back to a "medium" weight 9mm JHP with the superb Speer 124 +p Gold Dot leading the pack and Win. has since introduced that weight as well, while still keeping their legendary 127 gr. +p+ JHP in the lineup.

My agency issues that very round as an alternate 9mm. It isn’t my #1 fave rave, but I can sure get behind it. After all, it’s pretty much a straight walled 357Sig.

It is clearly deductive reasoning that tells us that velocity is a factor in the 9mm's success as one only has to correlate the blatant difference between a .38 Special 125 JHP and a .357 Mag. 125 gr. JHP. Something happens when a certain threshold is broken. Some say that is circa. 1,300 fps for a handgun round. Some say that is total malarkey. However, no one can deny the stellar Street results of the 9mm 115 gr. +p+ JHP nor the .357 Mag. 125 gr. JHP and in the end, reality trumps theory. Would you rather trust your safety & well being to a round that has thousands of incidents verifying its credibility, or would you rather choose one that some Poindexter who flies the "brown bomber" all day at a desk theorizes is better for you?

You make excellent points. If I had to pick a 9mm to carry, and I did for years in an old ’89 model P226, it was the 115 gr. +p+ JHP. Sure, it had to have a stronger recoil spring and rattled up my Sig a bit, but the receiving side of it got an impressive thesis composed of copper and lead. It was at the time the closest I could find to a semi auto 357 Mag in a conventional round. I think it’s been improved on now, with the 357 Sig, simply because it shares the same properties but works within a bottleneck package that feeds excellently and I don’t think punishes the alloy frame quite as much.

And your Poindexter is sadly alive and well, because he’s still pushing that 147 gr, and, like a ticked off zombie woken from a brain-buffet eating dream, is waking once more; unfortunately even with proven street results to prove it’s fecklessness, it won’t stay buried and is climbing out of the grave once more….

.................
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Old 05-19-2014, 06:14 PM
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Old cop,
Glad you came out without felonious modifications to your chassis. Job well done!
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Old 05-20-2014, 01:09 AM
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...At one point he said something that echoed what another person from that agency was once quoted to have said, which is that the standard 180gr JHP .40 that had been in-service since about '90 had actually acquired a better track record of street effectiveness in stopping threats than even the 125gr Magnum load had done for them in previous times...

First, I believe that you were indeed told that. Secondly, I have a hard time swallowing that entirely . However, as you added that factoring in of better training today coupled with a semi-auto .40 S&W being easier to shoot well than a DA revolver with hot 125 gr. Magnums, makes it more palatable. As well, it is not a direct "apples to oranges" comparison as we all know the semi-auto holds more ctgs.

My personal belief is that the .40 S&W, especially with the hot 155 gr. JHP's as loaded by Rem. especially for the BP, is devastating. The 180 gr. bullet was never intended for the .40 S&W but was transitioned into service by the penetration junkies from the 10mm. As well, the 180 gr. is a cream puff load to shoot for today's younger shooters who have a great deal of difficulty shooting real "barn burners" as most are not really gun people per se.

In conclusion, I think the .357 SIG is the best of both Worlds as you get .357 Mag. 125 gr. performance in an easier to manage semi-auto. It's a Helluva ctg.
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Old 05-20-2014, 03:50 PM
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1) There is no real performance difference in the modern service handgun calibers (9mm, .40, .45, .357Sig) with quality ammo in either calibrated testing or in actual shootings. Doctor Roberts' materials go into considerable detail on this. There are also indications that the agencies which use the .357Sig have such good performance because they train seriously, more so than others. I am aware of other agencies that train seriously compared to the majority, and they have good success with their ammo. I suspect that the training (physical and mindset) are more important variables than the ammo.

2) The failure of a 9mm Silvertip, which is 3 or more generations removed from modern service ammo, was important then, but is basically a tragic data point in a learning curve now.

3) Wasn't it Dove who lost his glasses and couldn't see well enough to hit anything? (I really don't recall, but one of the agents experienced that.)

4) The FBI standard is 12" minimum, and I think 18" maximum (I have not looked for a while). They are looking at the possibility of shots that have to go through intermediate barriers, from clothing to glass, to the arm of a suspect. They are also considering that most Americans are ... overweight at best. There have been cases of offenders whose body fat was enough to reduce bullet effectiveness. Remember that the purchase rule for equipment is that is has to work adequately well under all conditions.

5) No doubt that FBI training was inadequate. The poor handling of their sidearms (unholster it and drive with it on your lap or whatever? Really?) was an issue. Remember that our understanding now that a pistol is what you carry when you don't expect a specific problem and a long gun (carbine or a slug loaded shotgun) is what you take if you do is in large part developed from that event.

6) Feebies are not cops. Some have been, but many have not. Vehicle stop tactics were not a solid part of their training, and from what I have been able to discern, it is still marginal.

7) They did not have adequate numbers of personnel on scene to deal with motivated offenders, and IIRC, the local PD (Metro-Dade?) was not aware of the event until called by nearby residents because of the shooting. At least car of agents was too far away cuz they had to stop to pee, and they had the "heavier" weapons (mostly MP5s, I think - sexy, not sound).

8) Over-penetration is not often near the problem that missing is.

9) Placement is king; penetration queen. The target area for shooting offenders has not been well taught, and a lot of targets still reinforce improper skill sets.

Side issue: I do not recall the Illinois SP using the Federal 9BPLE +P+ load, but they may have. The round that they used that really started to develop a sound reputation was the Winchester 9mm +P+, first in 115 grain, then in 127 grain as the Ranger line evolved. I have carried both and would without concern.
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Old 05-20-2014, 05:12 PM
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Doug M,
Pretty sure the ISP did carry it, if my foggy old memory serves, they were the first large agency to begin carrying 9mm autos. In fact, I think they contracted with Federal to develop a 9mm that was supposed to be the semi-auto cartridge clone of the 125 gr 357 Mag. I think that's why it got dubbed the "Illinois Load" in the first place, but I could be wrong.
Maybe a retired ISP Troop on the board can chime in with more insight....
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Old 05-20-2014, 06:14 PM
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The Border Patrol used the 158 gr. JSP .357 cartridge up until the early 80's. The thinking was that the service wanted a hollow point round that penetrated less. The idea of dubbing a hollow point round a "controlled expansion round" and making it a .38 SPL was that it could be more easily sold to the (not so law enforcement thinking) higher ups in the Immigration and Naturalization Service who were the parent agency of the Border Patrol at the time. It was thought that the higher ups would have been appalled by officers carrying "dum dum" rounds. After a couple of shootouts where the 110 gr. .38 SPL +P+ "controlled expansion" round didn't measure up to it's expectations, displayed in tests, the round was dropped from service. Having broken the hollow point wall, the service adopted the 125 gr. JHP .357 round which served it's purpose until the USBP adopted semi-auto pistols and the .40 S&W cartridge.
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Old 05-20-2014, 06:38 PM
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Doug M,
Pretty sure the ISP did carry it, if my foggy old memory serves, they were the first large agency to begin carrying 9mm autos. In fact, I think they contracted with Federal to develop a 9mm that was supposed to be the semi-auto cartridge clone of the 125 gr 357 Mag. I think that's why it got dubbed the "Illinois Load" in the first place, but I could be wrong.
Maybe a retired ISP Troop on the board can chime in with more insight....
*
We do a have a retired Captain who served through at least part of that period on the forum. It is in fact possible that they carried one or more Federal load, as they experimented a lot with different loads, some of which were mediocre, the rest of which were worse.

I bought the 115 grain to which I referred off the contract when I was a small town officer in Illinois, so along with other info from those days I am confident that it was that load that was known as the "ISP load". I got it at a price that would make you cry now - and the cost was so little different from ball that it was worth using as training ammo.
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Old 05-20-2014, 07:10 PM
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Man, oh man. The glory of the old days. I remember buying Remington generic 115 gr ball for about $8.95 a box. Of course, that's when Blazer .41 Mag was around $14.99 a box, too, and I thought that was outrageous.

I wish I had some of that old Federal Illinois load 115 gr +P+, it was great stuff. And the old boxes that ammo came in back in the 70's and '80's is cool. At least to older fossils like me.
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Old 05-20-2014, 09:00 PM
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The retired ISP Cap'n has stated that they first used the 9mm BPLE to great success, but that ongoing testing of ammo lots did not give them the requested 1,300 fps "floor" they required and Fed. refused to load it any hotter if I recall his story correctly. The ISP then went to Win. who then made the famous Ranger 115 gr. JHP +p+ that was hotter. It averages right at 1,365 fps in my G19.
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