Hi Guys.....

I have just conducted some chronograph testing of my own using a S & W model 60 (2" barrel) and a bunch of different Factory Loads that are typically used for self defense purposes. The equipment I used was the Master Chrony that I have always found to be reliable, and the weather on the test date was about 55 degrees and sunny. I have to say that after seeing the results with my own eyes, I was BLOWN AWAY! The results below were an average of 10 shots out of a 2" S & W Chief Special.

ALL FACTORY AMMO:

Winchester 158 Gr. SWCHP +P (FBI load) ............751 fps
Remington 158 Gr. SWCHP +P (FBI load)...............746 fps
Winchester 158 Gr. SWC Standard Non +P Load .....692 fps
Federal 158 Gr. LRN Standard Non +P Load............701 fps
Speer Gold Dot 135 Gr. JHP +P ("short bbl. load")...880 fps
Buffalo Bore 158 Gr. +P SWCHP-Gas Check...........1,025fps
Buffalo Bore 158 Gr. Std. Non +P 158 Gr. SWCHP.....835fps

What really surprised me is how dismal the FBI loadings were! I have serious doubts that they would even expand at the above velocities, and as far as the standard pressure loads go (from Federal & Winchester), I would classify them as plinking loads only. The Buffalo Bore ammo actually performed better than the company advertises. Their +P loading in my opinion is nothing sort of FANTASTIC!!! Over 1,000 feet per second from a 2" gun. Their Non +P loading actually performed better than the Winchester and Remington +P ammo. Not only were their velocities incredible, but the recoil was not bad at all. In my M60 Chief's Special (all steel with wooden grips & a Tyler "T" grip) which weighs in at 20 ounces, it was very controllable, and point of impact was the same as point of aim. The Speer Gold Dot ammo was quite good as well. Their loading averaged 880 fps which again form a 2" gun is very respectable.

What really gets me is that the big 3 ammo companies that have been in the business for many many years, have resources up the wazoo, lots of money for R & D, and they are producing self defense ammunition with sub standard performance. For the past 20 years I have carried the so-called FBI load in my Chief, but no more. I will now be carrying Buffalo Bore's +P 158 Gr. bullet, and I will probably use either the Gold Dot 135 Gr.or the Buffalo Bore standard 158Gr. in my Model 37 "Airweight".

Obviously both Buffalo Bore & Speer have done their homework as far as self defense ammo is concerned, and Win. Fed. & Rem. have either gotten very lazy, or caved into the lawyers. Just thought some of you would be interested.

Regards,
Chief38

very interesting....
I have been following the Buffalo Bore choices for a few weeks now, might be time to buy a coupla boxes and see how they shoot

From my testing in my Chief's Special, the Remington FBI load
will expand. It has always expanded in the tests I have done.
From what I have seen Win and Fed will not in that load.
Just my observations.

I would not consider 750 fps sub standard though. I have chronographed many 158 gr standard loads at 600-625 fps -no joke in my Chief.

The original FBI loads have over the years turned many a bad guy into a former bad guy.
I have seen the Remington actually expend from a 2" gun, worked fine then, likely works just fine now.

As for R&D, these loads were fully developed back in the day and R&D has been spent on other ammo in their various product lines, no surprise there.

How does BB get a 158 gn bullet to go over a 1000 fps out of a 2" barrel without exceeding pressure limits?

I wondered how the Hornady Leverevolution Ammo achieved the stated velocity as well. Something about a special blend of propellent???

Chief38 had an excellent post!!!!

One way to get much higher velocity over standard current production ammunition is to load to the pressure limit of the cartridge. My opinion is that .38 Spl is factory loaded to a level that even the poorest manufactured or older pre-heat treated arms shouldn't fail due to over pressure. I also believe that what is marketed as +P possibly even +P+ is really only loaded closer to the SAMMI pressure specs.

Very related but off topic, .35 Remington is loaded to SAMMI specs or a little lower in deference to the Remington Model 8. This is the gun the round was designed for and this makes sense. If you own a Marlin lever action you can safely load to a higher pressure, within limits of the action and get some very impressive performance. I'm still slowly working up with my .35. Factory loads run in the mid 1800's from my gun and my reloads right now are north of 2100, safely.

So a reloader or specialty ammunition company can get much better performance simply loading near the top end of standard pressure specifications.

I am in no way saying that a well placed shot from any 38 spl. will not kill a person ( heck, .22's killed many people ), but the purpose of shooting someone (presumably) is to immediately stop them from doing harm. The more violent and shocking power the impact has, the faster that person will become incapacitated.

I also have begun looking into older (circa late 60's & early 70's) 38 special ammunition, and have found loadings by both Winchester & Remington that are very close to what Buffalo Bore has achieved. These were marked "police loads" ( not +p's at the time ) but they were never offered to the public at large for some reason unknown to me.

Both Buffalo Bore & Speer have achieved their spectacular results WITHIN sammi specifications, which means that a revolver in good condition will have no problems handling the ammo since it was designed for it. That given, why not take advantage of the full power loadings, instead of relying on 80 plus year old technology??

Up until now, I always had the mind set of "hey, this is what everybody says is the best load for my 2" gun", so I used it, and quite honestly, up until recent times that may have been true. In my personal opinion, we now have better choices, and after actually chronographing them myself and seeing the results, I can no longer stick with the old stuff. I guess like everything else in life, it's not for everybody.

Chief38

I like the accuracy of the Federal 158 gr. LSWCHP+P in my 65-5, 3"bbl. I still haven't found a load I like in my J-frames, except 148 gr. WCs in general. Been thinking of trying BB 158s and Speer SB loads. I will, now!

I agree with Bagolden. I think that the current offerings from Winchester, Remington & Federal are so "watered down" that they can be fired from firearms manufactured a hundred years ago. Their +P loadings are not that much hotter and still below the max. sammi specs. I also think he is correct stating that Buffalo Bore has not exceeded the specified sammi pressures, but loaded up to them. Still perfectly safe in a modern gun in good condition. It's kind of like only filling your gas tank 3/4 full with the fear that some might spill out if you fill it to the top.

chief38

The companies found out a long time ago that the wording in advertisements is what sell things. Just call it "new and improved", "major breakthrough", "FBI", "+P", or "super doesit" and the public never questions, they just buy. Do as Chief38, if you want to know how a cartridge works in your gun you have to test it in your gun. Larry

but now you can see why I run .357s in my snubs. I use Speer SB .357 in my 360 PD and full house Remington 125 gr. SJHPs in my Taurus 605 and Ruger SP-101.

Other people's milage may vary, of course. If you can handle the extra power, by all means do so.

Can you tell us what they are? The Treasury loads and Super Vel have been frequently discussed on this forum and others, but I don't recall hearing anything about what you described. The Super Vel (original version) was hot, Treasury load was not, but Super Vels were available to the general public. Thanks!

Here are a few loads off the top of my head. The first was the predecessor to the .357 which was called the 38-44 which was nothing more than a VERY HOT 38 special. They used 158 grain bullets that had velocities of 1175 fps. The second one was a round called the "38 Hi Speed" that was supposedly even hotter than any of the +P loadings from the Big 3 ammo makers. There was also a load made for the State Troopers back in the late 60's, but I can not find the spec's. to quote this minute, but I shall look for it.

Chief38

The 38-44 load significantly predates the 1960's and 70's, going all the way back to the 30's. That ammo was available to the public. The state trooper load you mentioned is probably the one shown below, note that it is a 110 grain bullet. The Hi Speed designation is what the industry used before the +P designation, and it's hard to determine what the actual numbers were. I have not been able to locate any to test. Other posters have said it mirrored the 38-44, or about 1150 fps out of 6" barrels. It also was available to the public. As some others have said on this forum, it is easier to find quality .38 Special loads today with expanding and jacketed bullets (Corbon, Hornady, Gold Dot, Buffalo Bore, etc.) than it was many years ago.

My M&P 360 is carried with 125 grain Gold Dots{.357 Magnum} and actually chrono'd 1200FPS!!!!! A handful, but manageable. The 140 grain Lever-Evolution clocked 1150FPS!!!!! Oh Baby!!!! This isn't fun,but it is do-able. The Heavy loads shoot to point of aim for me at 15YDS. If I were to carry .38 Specials in it, I would stick with the 95gr.+P because of their speed. S-prefix

__________________
Go big or stay home

Stiab,

One of the loadings I was referring to came in a YELLOW Winchester box, was 158 gr. LRN ammo and was specifically marked for police use. I do believe that judging from the box this ammo is from the 60's - 70's. There were chronograph tests done on this ammo (although not by me) and the posted results were quite a bit hotter than the +P offerings now days.

My Father was a Federal LEO and I took special note of the ammo made specifically for his agency. Most of the loadings were 110 gr. & 125 gr. but there were also some heavier loadings made. In fact, some of the boxes that they came in were just plain white boxes, and they were clearly marked for LE use only (not for sale to the public). The boxes had a long winded statement that this ammo was loaded to extremely high velocities and pressures and was to be used with caution.

Chief38

Me too. You are probably referring to some of the ammo seen below, which I was issued in the early 1970's. Despite the warnings, it was not very hot. I personally chronographed it out of a 4" Model 15 at only 1077 fps (110 grain bullet). The Super Vel ammo of the day, available to the public, with the 110 grain bullet, tested 1221 fps from the same revolver on the same day. The energy produced by the Super Vel is 29% greater than from the 'law enforcement only' load.

FWIW, I got results similar to stiab's, testing Federal +P+ 110s against Super Vel's. Even though the Super Vel was already pretty old, it ran about 1180fps from a 4" 10, whereas the +P+ was about 1080fps from a 520.

I have no idea what the various pressures were.

FWIW, the good news is the Treasury Load will break 1200 fps- the bad news it's from an 8" Python.

Good shooting.

Chief38:

Great Information! I carried the Winchester 158 gr. SWCHP +P load for years in a model 60. When I switched to a 637 I loaded it with the Speer SB 135 Load. I was disappointed to see the chronograph results of the Winchester loading; I don’t have any around anymore, but I thought they were advertised at over 850FPS in a 4 inch barrel. Have you thought about taking your testing a step further with these loads by doing penetration and expansion testing in ballistic gelatin? The FBI load v. the Speer 135 load would be interesting. Thanks for the good info...

Best Regards

few more loads that I have chronoed over the years. ave of 10 shots 2 inch barrels s&w 637 and charter arms off duty 38 specials....357 is s&w 66 with 6 inch barrel

2 inch barrel
fed 129 hydra shock +P 801 fps
rem 125 golden saber +P 912 fps
corbon 158 LHP +P+ 951 fps
fed 110 JHP +P+ 994 fps
win 110 JHP +p+ 1003 fps
fed 147 hydra shock +p+ 811 fps

6 inch
corbon 110 JHP +p+ 1584 fps...older load..way to hot for 38 sp!
fed 129 hydra shock +p 919 fps
fed 110 JHP +p+ 1210 fps
win 110 JHP +p+ 1157 fps
fed 147 hydra shock +p+ 966 fps

hope this may help

Jason

I'll bet that the gel tests are over at Brassfetcher (old website link). Tomorrow I'll have to dig in my library. IIRC, the Winchester version was what the FBI used in the '86 Miami shootout. It did well from 4" guns, but, IIRC, SA McNeil was using a 2 1/2" gun and the load beat the snot out of William Mattix's head. Someone please correct me if my memory is wrong.

John P.

I would be interested in doing a penetration test, but believe it or not the range & shooting club that I belong to will not let us shoot at ANYTHING other than paper targets. Yea, I know, what's the harm of shooting into gelatin......but I am just a member so I have to follow their rules. Ranges are very sparse in this part of the country so I can't rock-the boat!

It would be quit interesting to see the results though.

Chief38

I think the factories have access to powders that we don't (non canistered) We sometimes don't have the same powders available to us.
Frank

__________________
US RIDE FOR THE BRAND OR LEAVE

Thanks for the interesting post chief38. Anyone done any accuracy tests for some of those loads out of a 2 inch? I know that you have to find the right load for your pistol, just wondering if there are any loads that many folks have found generally accurate (or inaccurate) out of a 2 inch j frame.

Well, it appears Buffalo Bore is where it's at.

The Winchester 158 gr +P LSWCHP is a hardcast bullet, very little expansion. The Remington version is much softer, and expands more often than not. BB is even softer, and has a very tight gas check. It expands, and then some.

Brassfetcher has tests where the BB load starts disintegrating, but the larger pieces still penetrated past the magical 12" with the 158 gr load. BB also loads Gold Dots that are faster still out of a snub. I think I will try some soon and report.

Shooting the Buffalo Bore 125 grain low velocity Gold Dots in a 638 is almost pleasant.

The Win .38 bullet that hit Matix knocked him out even though it missed the brain, and left him combat ineffective for the rest of the fight.

BTW, both bad guys were killed with this ammo by Agent Mireles.

And the dish ran away with the spoon.

Correct, although I doubt either BG was long for this world.

Just for the sake of clarity, the shot in question by SA McNeil didn't miss Mattix's brain. It just failed to penetrate the cranial vault. It did fracture it and cotuse (sic?) the lower right temporal lobe of his brain.

Well, I have thought about the suggestion of doing a penetration and expansion test on the ammo I chronographed, but I will have to wait until sometime this summer when I can get upstate to one of my buddy's country home. He has hundreds of acres and we can safely do tests there. The ranges here will not let us shoot anything but paper targets stapled onto the carriers.

In the mean time, I have stoked my Chief's Special 2" snubby with the Buffalo Bore +P 158 grainers, and I feel very confident with that package.....

Chief38

I am a fan of BB, sometime ago I started carrying their 19E/20 in my 640 & 60-10 (3”), It is .357 /158 gr JHP called low flash, low recoil, low report, the description is good IMO. The ranges I use will not let me set-up a chronograph much less shoot into gelatin so I take BBs word as good. The bullets look very much like gold dots. It certainly is a manageable load. Of course the “lows” are relative, as it does make a flash and bang.
I often hear the argument; “just use 38 +p instead of .357, as the results are similar” assuming BB is accurate, I think this is a better round than any 38 + P for short barrel .357s.
S&W mod. 340PD 1-7/8 inch barrel -1,015 fps (361 ft. lbs.)
S&W mod. 66 2-1/2-inch barrel -1,097 fps (422 ft. lbs.)
S&W mod. 65 3-inch barrel -1,172 fps (481 ft. lbs.)
S&W Mt. Gun 4-inch barrel -1,232 fps (532 ft. lbs.)
Colt Python 6-inch barrel -1,198 fps (503 ft. lbs.

__________________
Ipsis Rebus Dictantitbus

Old Roger, thank you for your post. That Buffalo Bofe load is impressively hot when you look at the numbers. Any time I see a .38 getting over 400 fpe., it puts me on notice.

FWIW, whenever I've tested a load and compared it to the results I found online, the results have been very close. If you can find third party results that are reliable, then I doubt that there's a need to test yourself.

SSA McNeil (now dead, by the way - the last casualty of 4/11/86) used a personally owned 2 1/2 Model 19 (at least until he took the .223 round in the hand and blood and bone in the cylinder prevented a reload) but I'm not sure that he hit anybody.

It was SA Ed Mireles who put the head and neck shots into both guys, using a personally owned 4 inch 586 with LSWCHPs.

If you want to wade through this:

Federal Bureau of Investigation - Freedom of Information Privacy Act

there is plenty of interesting info, including the brand of ammo used by the agents (from the evidence logs of the recovered cases) and the make, model, and serial numbers of the guns involved on both sides.

__________________
“What you got, ain’t new.”

I have Dr. Anderson's book, Forensic Analysis of the April 11, 1986, FBI Firefight. Dr. Anderson's analysis indicates that SA McNeil took Matix out of the fight with gunshot wound F (right temple) which fractured, but failed to penetrate the skull covering the right temporal lobe of Matix's brain. The brain was cotused and this shot would have produced unconscienceness. The bullet came to rest in the right maxillary sinus.

It is believed that SA McNeil landed gunshot wound B with his next shot. This wound entered at the base of the neck on the right side above the clavical. It the severed the subclavian vessels (blood supply to the right arm), damaged the bracial plexus, hit the first rib where it comes off the spine (fracturing it), and deflected downward into the right pleural cavity at which point it came to rest. The right lung was not punctered. At autopsy the right lung was collapsed and the right pleural cavity contained about 900 cubic centimeters of blood. Take note those of you who only carry one gun, Matix lost the use of his right arm!

It makes sense that McNeil rendered Matix combat ineffective. He never fired another shot after his first shotgun blast at Jerry Dove. Taking that shot exposed him to SA McNeils gunfire at across the car hood distance.

I think it can be safely said that agents Dove and McNeil killed the human coyotes in question, but like the guy who scores the winning touchdown, SA Mireles deserves our applause for speeding up the process.

I'm not sure I'd put much stock in Doc Anderson - I'm pretty sure he's still in the child molester wing of his local pen.

William French Anderson - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

That said, I haven't read his book, though I have heard it is full of glaring errors. I just couldn't stomach putting money in his pocket.

He may be right about McNeil's shots - did he base his conclusions on ballistic comparisons of the recovered bullets?

__________________
“What you got, ain’t new.”

Thanks for the heads up, i hadn't heard about any of that! Gross!!!Could you please give me an example of what the glaring errors might be, sir? I'll look further into his conviction, but if that's the case (I'm sure it is, he got convicted), God bless you for not subsidizing the SOB! I'm sure that black belt in tae kwon do will be useful in prison. I'm sure the one recovered from the right maxillary sinus is FUBAR. It fragmented considerably (could this be part of why Winchester uses a harder alloy?) I'll dig into the book and let you know about both bullets though. I don't know who else would have hit him. I don't think Risner and Orrantia were there yet and there was no one else on that flank firing right after WM fired his first and only shot. I just don't know who else could have hit Matix from those angles while still in the Monte Carlo. The only person who could have possibley hit him with the FBI load like that would be Gilbert Orrantia, but it seems more than improbable. Am I missing something?

accuracy, accuracy,accuracy!

Flop - I haven't read his whole work, but I did read this pretty good summation:

FBI-Miami Shootout

and I don't see any big problems in it. His account seems pretty accurate based on what I've heard, so aside from his kiddy-diddling tendencies he seems to have done a good job with this. I don't know where I heard about glaring errors, but I stand corrected. I must have been thinking of the Dodson/Ayoob catfight.

I'm glad to see Gordon McNeil get credit for putting a bullet in Matix's face. It doesn't get much mention, but he was the squad supervisor and could have easily been sitting in his office when this went down. Most FBI supervisors would have been. He was by all accounts a good guy who wanted to be with his agents on the rolling stakeout that day.

I never met him, but I have had the chance to meet and talk with Gil Orrantia and Richard Manauzzi. Good dudes.

Its hard to believe this was almost a quarter century ago.

__________________
“What you got, ain’t new.”

This one is easy. Hornady took a round which used to shoot a round nose bullet which fought velocity as soon as it was shot and substituted a pointy bullet which cuts the air better. It's all about the pointy bullet.
I have to disagree with you there. I don't know about Buffalo Bore but Speer is NOT within current SAAMI pressure limits for their 135gr .38 Special +P short barrel ammo. Speer clearly stated that ammo is generating close to 20,000 psi, the old standard, and not within the current limits of 18,500 psi.

IMO shoot what is trying to hurt you and hit what you're shooting at. All the rest is just fluff...

__________________
Freedom is never free!!
SWCA #3437

That makes sense. As sad as the whole kiddy thing with Frenchy is, I'm thinking that there was a lot yet to be understood about how that fight went down prior to the release of his report, so many who studied the Miami shootout previosly had to relearn (or unlearn, only God knows) a thing or two.

I did revisit the text of the book as well as the Matix autopsy per out exchange yesterday. As I had thought, the bullet recovered from Matix's maxillary sinus (gunshot wound F) was nearly FUBAR. The largest fragment was recovered at 33.2 grains. Per Frenchy's request Robert Kennington, the firearms evidence examiner took another look at the fragment in 1996 and found that it bore evidence of bullet base and rifling. It had been previously believed that it could have been a 00 pellet fired by SA Mireles.

There is no mention of rifling on the bullet recovered in WM's right pleural cavity (gunshot wound B). It stands to reason that the bullet in question would have been associated with SA McNeil before Frenchy's analysis had that bullet been in such a condition that would allow accurate comparison. The autopsy report describes the bullet as "markedly deformed".

Anybody ever chrono Speer 135 grain SB 38 Special +P out of a 4-inch barrel ?

Just curious.