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Old 01-05-2010, 04:23 PM
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Default Info needed on 158 grain soft point .357

Recently in a trade I acquired 500 rounds of Sellier & Belliot 158 grain soft point .357 magnum ammo. I have always heard that the ultimate self defense load in .357 is the 125 grain hollowpoint, even though it is very hard on a handgun's topstrap. What is the best use for 158 grain soft point ammo in .357?
I appreciate any info.

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Old 01-05-2010, 05:22 PM
38-44HD45 38-44HD45 is offline
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I've shot a couple of boxes of the S&B 158 JSP ammo, and it was okay, although what I shot was pretty dirty and awfully flashy. Personally, I have very little use for the 158 JSP loads, which don't usually expand well. That said, I won't stand in front of one, and it makes a pretty good round for deer and some other game. Expect overpenetration on human targets.

FWIW, much of the 125gr. .357 scare propaganda is just that. Enough use of full-house 125gr. screamers will cause some top strap flame cutting, but most folks will never shoot enough of it to cause any meaningful problems, and it tends to be self-limiting. I don't shoot them in my K-frame .357s, mostly because K-frame .357s aren't made anymore, and besides, they recoil enough in lightweight guns to make them unpleasant to my arthritic hands. (One cylinder-full from a 340PD was more than plenty.) I do shoot them in my 5" Model 27-5, and they don't make those anymore, either. I just don't shoot large quantities of them.
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Old 01-05-2010, 05:40 PM
surveyor47 surveyor47 is offline
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158 Grain is the ONLY 357 ammo that should be fired through a K-frame magnum, such as the 19, 66, 65, 13. The reason is that 125 grain 357s have a long history of cracking forcing cones in K-frames and there are NO remaining K-frame barrels left at S&W. K-frames have a flat cut out at the bottom of the barrel where the crane fits. This is the weak spot that cracks. This is the reason S&W came out with the L-frame magnums. I was told by a S&W technician that K-frame forcing cones have been known to crack within 50 to 100 rounds of 125 or 110 grain 357 ammo.The guns were designed at a time when police officers trained with 38 Special ammo and carried 357 ammo. The trouble started when someone got the idea that you should train with your duty ammo. There is no similar problem with 38 Special ammo.

I usually shoot +P38 Specials out of my K-frame magnums. +P38s will usually have less penetration and lighter recoil, thus being less of an over penetration hazard and having a higher rate of controlled rapid fire. So what good is 158 grain 357 ammo? It is the only 357 ammo that a K-frame ought to be shooting. If you are going to shoot a deer or some game animal, the 158 ought to do as well as a 357 is capable of doing.

If I need 357 type power, I usually switch to a 41 or 44 Magnum.
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Old 01-05-2010, 05:49 PM
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In my experiance and humble opinion ..

Standard factory 125 gr .357's.are not going to hurt a clean, well maintained Smith and Wesson K frame.
Dirty Guns and superman loads have in the past caused issues with a few model 19's..pre -4's if I recall correctly.
The Barrel has .357 stamped on the side for a reason.

The 158 sp should get the job done for self-defense..it will penetrate and as with all ammo used you need to be aware of that point.
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Old 01-05-2010, 06:40 PM
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I used 158 grain JSP years ago when hunting for feral hogs. They were the heaviest factory .357 Mags at the time, and were a reliable stopper from a 6 1/2 inch Ruger Blackhawk. Other than that, I've never used them in anyother gun or situation.
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Old 01-05-2010, 11:35 PM
flop-shank flop-shank is offline
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Good post by surveyor, but I don't agree with a couple of minor points.
Quote:
+P38s will usually have less penetration and lighter recoil, thus being less of an over penetration hazard and having a higher rate of controlled rapid fire. So what good is 158 grain 357 ammo? It is the only 357 ammo that a K-frame ought to be shooting.
Sometimes higher velocity ammo will penetrate less. Penetration depth is more a function of bullet design than whether it is fired from a .38+P or .357. I wouldn't worry about .357 loads heavier than 125 grains. I wouldn't hesitate to use 135 gr. Speer SB, Corbon 140 gr. JHP, or Winchester 145 gr. Silvertips. Of course one cannot go wrong with 158s.

I agree with others in that the 158 gr. JSP should work well for deer. I would suspect that best results would come from 6" and longer barrels.
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Old 01-06-2010, 04:52 AM
tpd223 tpd223 is offline
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158gr soft point won't expand on people, at all, and will whistle through and still be very dangerous for quite a distance.

I'd use it for practice, hunting things that need extra penetration (hogs as an example), or as a SHTF stash, but not for self defense.

K frames will wear out much more quickly with the full house 125gr loads, but I saw hundereds of 125gr Remington .357mag rounds fired through model 66s back in the day and very few had any issues.
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Old 01-06-2010, 02:59 PM
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A little thread drift here, but I've once again seen a mistake that keeps popping up: It is not the bullet weight, but the intensity and pressure of the load, that may cause damage to K-frames over time. Factory 110 grain .357 loads are uniformly wimpy compared to maximum factory 125s like the Remington SJHP, and I've never heard of a K-frame being damaged by 110s. There is nothing magic about 158s, just as there is nothing magically bad about 125s. I've never seen reliable information indicating that a non-defective Smith K-frame has had a forcing cone crack from a couple of boxes of 125gr. factory loads. I have seen Model 19s with cracked forcing cones and flame-cut topstraps, but they were guns that had digested many hundreds of rounds of 125gr. .357s. On the other hand, I personally ruined a 2 1/2" Model 19 in 1976 or 77, with a couple boxes of maximum handloads with 125gr. bullets, loading 2400 with data from Speer #8. The frame stretched by about .007", but the forcing cone did not crack, which might tell us something about the forcing cone issue.
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Old 01-07-2010, 04:15 AM
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Thanks for all the info guys!
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Old 01-07-2010, 10:20 AM
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.357/158s in my Ks once in a while.
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Old 01-07-2010, 02:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slowburninsteve View Post
Recently in a trade I acquired 500 rounds of Sellier & Belliot 158 grain soft point .357 magnum ammo. I have always heard that the ultimate self defense load in .357 is the 125 grain hollowpoint, even though it is very hard on a handgun's topstrap. What is the best use for 158 grain soft point ammo in .357?
I appreciate any info.

Thanks,
Steve
The best use for your Sellier & Belliot 158 grain SJSP's is paper! They make a very good target and practice round for the price point they sell for!
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Old 02-09-2010, 11:56 AM
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OK,

As far as flame cutting goes is the problem more from the short bullet alowing the gasses to escape or from the high pressure loads.

Would a .38 110 grain bullet have the gasses escaping causing a problem and a 158 grain 357 magnum not have the problem?
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Old 02-14-2010, 11:55 PM
scooter123 scooter123 is offline
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My understanding is that the heavier bullet is longer. Because of this it seals off the B/C gap for a longer period of time when pressure is at it's peak. So, you get less flame cutting and a reduction in damage to the forcing cone in the K frames.

Personally, it's my preffered load for range practice with 357 Magnums in my 620. As for why, it's a slower moving round and that means that the recoil pulse is somewhat extended in comparison to the 125 grain full power loads. Quite simply, it's as soft shooting 357 Magnum as you can find.

I also think that it would serve adequately as a SD round, especially if your dealing with 2 or 3 home invaders stacked up in your doorway. However, it's also distinctly louder than any other than any other caliber I shoot, so I would really prefer to not have to use it unless I had time to don some hearing protection.
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Old 07-17-2010, 07:45 PM
jonno97216 jonno97216 is offline
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Default What good is .357 158-gr. JSP?

I have owned, shot, handloaded for and hunted with a 3-inch M66, a 6-inch M28, Contenders in .357 Mag and Max, and both Rossi and Marlin .38/.357 carbines for decades, so I know a bit about this subject.

Many of the loads in the Speer #8 and #9 reloading manuals were too hot. I don't think Speer owned pressure guns back then, and simply relied on subjective pressure signs. Be especially careful of 9mmP, .357 Mag and .358 Win data in those books; I still refer to them, but I start low and work up, or check top loads in a newer manual.

I understand that the manufacturers used the switch from measuring pressure in CUP to PSI, about 1990, to quietly downgrade .357 Magnum pressures, largely because of the 125-grain Police load/K-frame Smith problem. All of the reloading manuals cut their top loads by a couple of grains at about the same time. I would be surprised if current loads are hot enough to damage a K-frame, unless you fire a lot of them; they're held to 35,000 PSI or less. +P 9mm loads are hotter than that. And little J-frame Smiths are now chambered in both 9mm and .357. Surely a K-frame is stronger than a J?

On the rare occasions that I carry the M66 for self-defense--mostly on the way to/from a hunting trip (I have other guns that carry better in town)--I load it with Black Hills 125-grain (Remington) SJHP. I don't practice with those loads, but use inexpensive factory .38 SPLs for practice and small game. I cast a 130-grain RNFPGC for small game and practice, up to full power, loads in all my .380s, 9mms, .38s, and .357s (and .357 Max, .35 Rem, .358 Win, .350 Rem, .35 Whelen Ackley improved, and .358 Norma, for that matter cast several larger .357 and .358 bullets for various guns/purposes (I love my .35s for precisely that handloading versatility), and so rarely use expensive factory ammo for practice. If you practice lots with .38s, and only occasionally throw in a few .357s (Remington's mid-range 125-grain .357 kicks and blasts less than full-power ammo, and is still about like good +P 9mm for self-defense, if far less efficient), you won't notice the recoil and blast of full-power ammo during either a self-defense or hunting situation, any more than I feel the otherwise-brutal recoil of my .358 Norma when shooting elk.

Even elephant rifles don't kick, when you're shooting at elephants.

While I'm hunting with a rifle, I usually carry the M66 in a shoulder holster. It's small and light enough to be unobtrusive, far easier to carry than my .44 Magnum or high-pressure .45 Colt guns, so I only switch to them when I might need more power than the .357 can provide. I switch the M66 to Black Hills 158-gr (Rem) SJHP, for expansion with better penetration than lighter bullets, when I use factory loads. I carry this load for finishing-off game as large as elk, for defense against cougar (a slim but real chance in much of the Western U.S., these days), or black bear, and for any other need I might have for a weapon while my rifle is for any reason unavailable or too much gun.

For small game, or a finishing shot that doesn't even require the power of a .357, I load two chambers with .38s. A quick turn of the cylinder dials me way back on power, noise, recoil, destruction of edible meat, and wear on the gun, and the ability to easily and cheaply change power levels is one reason I love the .357 so much. The other is versatility in another way; I load several of the .357s I cast, as well as the 158-grain Speer JSPs, in my larger .35 caliber rifle cartridges. I keep loads to .38 Spl. (not easy in a .358 Norma case) or .357 velocities for small game and coyotes. Useful.

When I'm hunting nothing larger than deer, I prefer 140 gr JHPs in the M66. I can safely push them to 1330 fps, from the 3-inch barrel, fast enough to produce good expansion and at least minimal cavitation, which seems to start somewhere around 1200-1250 fps with either flat-point or mushroomed bullets. The Speer, Remington, or Hornady 140 gr JHPs will completely penetrate a deer's chest cavity, even from the rear ribs to the front of the opposite shoulder, leaving a wound two or three times the diameter of the expanded bullet. They usually come to rest under the skin on the off side. 158 gr JHPs penetrate deeper and expand less, usually wasting some of the bullet's energy (of which you have just enough, with this cartridge) on the landscape beyond the target. The two bucks I've hit through the lungs (both previously wounded with a rifle) with the 140 gr Speer JHP dropped instantly. I think this is the best load for deer in this gun.

I might switch to 158 gr JHPs for deer in the M28, with its longer barrel, depending on what the chronograph and some wet phone books told me. So many guns. So little time.

I have far less experience with the M-28. I will note that it's very accurate, especially with .38 wadcutters, and that surprisingly, it shows excess pressure signs far sooner than the M66. I attribute that to the K-frame's longer cylinder; if the actual combustion chamber is from the base of the cartridge case to the forcing cone in a revolver's throat, as I suspect, the K-frame would produce less pressure with the same loads. But anything that smears primers like bubble gum in the N-frame is no doubt too hot for the K-frame, anyway.

As for 158-grain JSPs in the .357, few of them will likely expand at revolver velocities. If they won't open up in sopping wet, soaked-overnight newsprint (something you can easily try for yourself: please clean up after), they really won't expand in lung tissue. You might use them where you need penetration more than expansion, but if the game is that big or dangerous, you need more gun, anyway.

Of course a .357 is always better than harsh language, as not a few black bear, grizzlys, and even polar bear have learned to their demise.

Where I have found great use for 158 gr JSPs is in .357 carbines. My Rossi Puma and Marlin '94 have put several deer, including middlin' large blacktail bucks, in the freezer (and rabbits, squirrels, and turkey on the table with .38s). Most of the deer were taken with the Speer 158 gr JSP, loaded hot, to ~1860 fps from a 20-inch bbl. Those loads only go in the carbines (and I never load softpoints in the revolvers, as a safety measure) and the brass only lasts a few reloadings--only one, for hunting loads. But they do kill deer cleanly with decent hits. Hit poorly, and you're much more likely to lose a wounded animal than with any other cartridge that's remotely adequate for deer. And, yeah, I learned that the hard way.

The Rossi was loaded with Speer JSPs when a pair of feral dobermans--I kid you not--that had deserted their guard-dog duties and gone into business for themselves threatened me off the back of the family ranch. I hit the lead dog on the point of the shoulder at 20 or 25 feet, as he came for me; the bullet smashed through shoulder, ribs, lungs and gut, and exited through the muscle at the front of the opposite hip.

At these velocities these flat-point bullets splash an entry wound through the skin about the diameter of a nickle, and seem to expand slowly, leaving a wound about the diameter of a quarter, all the way through a deer's chest--or diagonally through this doberman's body cavity. That one dropped instantly, and I slipped a .38 wadcutter (load these only into the chamber of a .357 carbine; they will jam it badly if you load them in the magazine) behind his ear, then went after his brother.

Apparently the second dog had been behind the first, and that first bullet had enough oomph left to give him a painful belly wound; he was laying in the middle of the trail about a hundred yards on. He raised his head when he saw me, so I shot him carefully through the heart as he lay 80 or 100 yards away. I performed a quick and dirty farmer's autopsy on the dogs, and left them lay. Two days later all the coyotes hadn't eaten were their spines.

The few factory 158-gr JSPs I've chronographed were 200 fps slower than my handloads. That cuts way back on maximum effective range, but they're still useful, even on deer, from the carbines, if you keep that in mind.

I found this link looking for 140-grain softpoints on the internet. 140-grain bullets shoot flatter than any others from a .357 carbine, and can deliver as much energy 150 or even 175 yards downrange as a revolver can at the muzzle. I've never shot a deer beyond about 90 yards with either carbine, and don't necessarily recommend doing so. But a .357 carbine makes the ideal trail gun, and I would like to be able to put venison as well as snowshoe hares, grouse, pikas, whatever, on the fire, in an emergency that justified doing so, from as far away as possible. I am concerned that 140 grain JHPs might over-expand at close range, at carbine velocities, hence my search for JSPs.

A friend who lives in a remote location has a cougar problem. A female and her cubs--and the male that no doubt visits when she's in heat--have devastated the deer herd on the tree farm he caretakes and lets me hunt. One of the cats even threatened two adult human males and a big male Akita from the brush as they walked by on the road recently. I'd like to lend him a moderately-heavy 7mm Mauser, which, to me, hardly kicks enough to notice, but he has a bad shoulder and can't tolerate even that much recoil. No one makes an affordable, hunting- grade bolt-action in 6.5 mm Alexander Arms Grendel yet (but wouldn't that, in an appropriately-sized action, make a sweet little minimum-recoil 300 yard deer rifle!), so the best I can do for him is one of the .357 carbines.

I'd like to make that carbine effective, for him, as far away as possible. The PMC 158-grain JSPs I had on hand only do about 1650 fps, so I told him to keep shots well under 100 yards. But I'd like to see what I could make a 140-grain JSP do. The Hornady LeverEvolution bullet seats too deeply, cutting powder capacity and velocity, to be what I'm looking for. Any other comments/suggestions/loads?

Meanwhile, if those 158 grain JHPs expand and leave a wound channel at least the diameter of a quarter in sopping-wet newsprint, as far away as you're likely to shoot, hunt deer with them. If not, use them for practice. I doubt very much if a couple of boxes of any .357 made in the last 20 years will hurt your K-frame.

One last comment; For deer and (slightly!) larger stuff, the Speer 170-gr Gold Dot SP might be ideal in the carbines. Speer punches a star-shaped hollow cavity in GDSPs, then closes it back up in the final die, so the soft point is pre-weakened to help it expand. Its mass should aid penetration. Anybody have any experience on game with it?

JO, PDX, OR
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Old 07-18-2010, 08:25 AM
flop-shank flop-shank is offline
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jonno, welcome to the forum.

Have you tried the Sierra 140 gr. JHP? If so what do you think of that bullet? Corbon loads a .357 JHP load with it and it sounds like a good one, although I haven't tried it (I'd rather handload than pay for overpriced ammo). My experience has been that Sierra JHPs behave much like Remington SJHPs, exibiting serious secondary fragmentation, good penetration, and slightly smaller recovered diameters than non-fragmenting bullets.
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Old 07-18-2010, 08:58 AM
jlynch34 jlynch34 is offline
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I've killed two deer with 158 gr JSP, they expanded very well as I found bullet fragments in both animals and didn't have pass thru. However, I don't recommend a .357 mag for deer I prefer a .44 mag.

Jerry

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Old 07-18-2010, 10:41 PM
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How about shooting lots of full power 357's from a Mod 27?

I expect that it would not have a negative effect but am I wrong?
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Old 07-18-2010, 11:13 PM
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That's what it was designed to do.
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Old 01-29-2013, 04:21 PM
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Default 357 Magnum

I use a S&W model 19 and have heard about the problems some of the earlier models might have with hot 125 grain loads. I can tell you I exclusively use 125 grain full loads in mine and have found no problems. I believe this is because it's a 19-5 manufactured in 1985, there were a lot of advances in metallurgy back in the 80's and I think better steel almost eliminated this problem. Anyway, that's what I use unless I'm trying to shoot through something. Just as a matter of fact the only round that rated higher in stopping power then the 357 magnum 125 grain (97%) was the 38 200 (98%) and I believe the reason is 200 grains in 357 caliber is inherently unstable causing it to spin end over end whenever it hits something. A 200 grain slug going through you sideways even at low velocity is devastating.
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Old 01-31-2013, 10:25 PM
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I have yet to try a 158gr for deer but I have loaded the Speer #4223 160gr JSP in my old M19 with a 6 inch barrel with a maximum load of Unique powder that gives me..........
1233 fps and 538 ft/lbs of energy that has taken BIG Nevada Mule deer inside of 100 yards. The last one at 60 yards hit
center line behind the shoulder at a perfect right angle, dropped in its tracks.

I have only loaded the 140grs for target use and the maximum velosity so far is just 1250 +/- fps that has 485 ft/lbs of energy but I do have a load that will come close to 1324fps but have yet to chrony it.

You can load heavier bullets but I do not think they are needed on deed size animals, if you can place your 1st shot into the vitals. No way would I try a bullet less than 140grs due to lack of penetration if bone is struck.
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