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  #1  
Old 01-31-2010, 11:28 PM
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Default Super Vel Ammo..........

Has any one heard of this brand ?? I have a box of 357 Mag in 110 grain jacketed hollow point. Comes in a yellow box with red stripes.
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Old 01-31-2010, 11:32 PM
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Welcome to the forum.

I wouldn't shoot it. It's a bit collectable, some of the early stuff is pretty hot and the 110gr .357 is notorious for flame cutting.

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Old 01-31-2010, 11:35 PM
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Self-Defense Ammo | Guns Magazine | Find Articles at BNET

Super Vel ammo ??? - DefensiveCarry Concealed Carry Forum
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Old 02-01-2010, 09:07 AM
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Some is hot and some is not. Turn the box over and if it does not say "Shelbyville, Ind" then it is not the original, and may be loaded to a lower level. Not all of it is collectable. The last full box I bought cost only $9.00 about two years ago.
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Old 02-01-2010, 09:26 AM
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I used a little Super Vel ammo back in the 70's. In .357 magnum I experienced massive blast and muzzle flash, and many instances of spent cases stuck in the chambers so tightly that they required a rod and mallet to remove.

Super Vel marketed their products extensively back in those days. Light bullets at maximum pressure loadings, impressive velocities advertised.

Several reports of flame-cutting, cracked forcing cones, and a few cylinder walls blown out.

I wouldn't use the stuff personally.
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Old 02-01-2010, 01:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MOONDAWG View Post
During the early 70's it was was about the only game in town for hot-roded factory .357's.

It worked well in our "N" framed model 27 & 28's, but extensive use in a "few" K-framed model 19's lead to timing problems more so that split forcing cones.

There was gas cutting in the top strap above the forcing cone, but it tended to cut to a minimal depth then stop.

It really didn't cause much of a problem, but scared the hell out some owners.

But the truth of the matter is most cops back then (at least down here) couldn't afford to shoot enough Super Vel through their guns to worry about.
+1 on the above!!!

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Old 02-01-2010, 01:39 PM
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I have a 1/2 of box full of 110 gr JHP 38 spl. A guy at work gave them to me, they were $7.45 for a box of 50. I dont know how old they are.
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Old 02-01-2010, 03:56 PM
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Antique ammo should be sold or collected, not shot.
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Old 02-01-2010, 04:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tpd223 View Post
Antique ammo should be sold or collected, not shot.
Not all old ammo is collectable, or has value greater than for plinking.
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Old 02-01-2010, 04:33 PM
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We used that in the early 70's. As I remember it was hot. Heavy frame .357 only
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Old 02-01-2010, 05:00 PM
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Super Vel, another urban legend. The stories get better as time goes on.

FWIW, it actually dates to the mid-'60s and caused the "big three" to come up with their own light, jacketed HV rounds.

Good shooting.
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Old 02-01-2010, 06:35 PM
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Default Super Vel Ammo

The box that I have is mfgd. by H & H Cartridge, Greensburg, Indiana.
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Old 02-01-2010, 08:06 PM
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The plant was located just outside of Waldron Indiana between Shelbyville and Greensburg on state highway 421. I lived in St. Paul (IN) I had a High School friend that worked there. I tried to get a summer job there myself. At the time lead round nose in .38 special model 10 or 14 was the standard police sidearm. You were either rich or unmarried if you carried a 27 and shot Super-Vel....one nice side affect from Super-Vel was that it inspired the other ammunition manufacturers to improve on their offerings.

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Old 02-01-2010, 08:43 PM
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The H&H production was announced in '77, but did not last for long.

Good shooting.
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Old 02-01-2010, 09:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Homie View Post
Super Vel, another urban legend. The stories get better as time goes on.

FWIW, it actually dates to the mid-'60s and caused the "big three" to come up with their own light, jacketed HV rounds.

Good shooting.
How do you get the "urban legend" status for this? An urban legend, by definition, is something that supposedly happened, but no one really knows where the story originated. A first hand account, particularly one that is documented with facts and figures, is considered to be just about the best source when trying to discern "what really happened." A "primary source" is what we call it. I personally shot some of Lee Juras' Super-vel loads in a j-frame in the early 70s. I experienced sticky extraction, flattened primers, and a tied-up revolver due to a bullet jumping crimp under recoil and locking up the cylinder. This was in a steel-frame gun. The revolver suffered no ill effects from the half-box or so of these rounds. I still carry it three or four times a week.

How about this one: (I hope bmcgilvray will forgive me for quoting a post of his from another forum, but I believe he is about as credible a source as could be used.)
Super Vel ammo ??? - DefensiveCarry Concealed Carry Forum
I once chronographed some Super Vel in a 4-inch Smith & Wesson Model 10. It achieved 1237 fps and 376 ft./lbs of energy at the muzzle. According to my notes it was July of 1980 when I took the measurments. That was the locally famous "summer of 1980" in Texas which likely still holds the record here for most days over 100F so the ammo may have been "hot" in more ways than one.

This isn't "urban legend" stuff. These accounts, especially bmcgilvray's, are first-hand, from people who have been shooting a long, long time. Do you think anyone is loading a commercial "+p" load to those velocities and pressures today?
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Old 02-01-2010, 09:15 PM
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I've shot the stuff in recent times, when I find partial boxes of it priced right, I'll go ahead and buy the stuff. Why not? Not for a K frame, but it is fine in an L frame IMO. I also have 2 full boxes of 158 SPs and 2 boxes of 9mm with (I forget the weight) HPs, all from the Shelbyville Plant. The full boxes I'll leave alone, except in case of emergency. I bet the 158s would be great hunting loads, much like the modern offerings by Cor Bon or Buffalo Bore.
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Old 02-01-2010, 09:21 PM
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A personal vignette of the only living thing I ever shot with Super Vel:

Back in the early '70's about the only thin and relatively light carry handgun was the Walther in various configurations. I had both a West German PPK/S .380 and a .22. It was my custom to carry the .380 with Super Vel since it was the hottest thing around. (In the blow-back PPK it was distinctly uncomfortable to shoot extensively.)

One afternoon on a pleasant woods walk I was attacked by an armadillo.I repelled the attack with a round of Super Vel .380 at about 5 yards. The beast jumped about two feet straight up in the air and hit the ground with all four wheels spinning. He ran a good 50 yards before succumbing to his injuries. When I retrieved him he had been drilled perfectly amidship...small entrance wound, about a quarter size exit wound.

From that point on I have never had a great deal of confidence in the stopping ability of the .380 round. My logic was that if the hottest round then available wouldn't appropriately expand on the hard shell of an armadillo that certainly wasn't on an adrenalin high, I wasn't quite ready to trust it on the soft skin of a crack head.

First impressions are hard to overcome.

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Old 02-02-2010, 12:35 AM
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A while back I dug out a full box of SuperVel .380 88 gr. JHP ammo. I chronographed 3 rounds - avg. 1060 fps. I was the hottest of 5 kinds of factory ammo I tried.

Back in the early '70s I talked with some guys who worked for another LE agency. They had just been issued new 2 1/2" nickel M-19s and SuperVel 110 gr. .357 ammo. The SuperVel had unplated cases that stuck in the chambers when fired. That was a real morale booster.
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Old 02-02-2010, 09:38 AM
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Quote:
How do you get the "urban legend" status for this?
I did not post the urban legend comment, but do partially agree with it. I was an LEO in that day and used it, and it was hotter than the so called Treasury Load. However, I think the urban legend part comes in when people assume all Super Vel was hot, and it was not.

I have personally tested 110 grain .38 Special Super Vel made in Shelbyville at 1221 fps from a 4" M15, which is indeed hot. But I also tested .357 magnum Super Vel 158 grain SWC KK from a 4" M28 at only 950 fps, and retested to make sure. The .357 magnum was from the H&H Cartridge Corp., Greensburg, Indiana, but using the otherwise identical Super Vel box.

If people think they will be shooting hot ammo everytime they pick up a box of Super Vel, they are mistaken. You have to look at the back of the box.

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  #20  
Old 02-02-2010, 07:35 PM
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You folks got me interested. I have a couple boxes in the basement. I'll have to check them out.
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  #21  
Old 02-06-2010, 11:10 PM
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si----------------

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Old 02-22-2010, 10:27 PM
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Early 9mm 90 gr JHP. cost a whopping $8.10
http://i550.photobucket.com/albums/i...s/IMG_1947.jpg
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Old 02-23-2010, 12:08 PM
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I have a box or two at home... I'll have to dig them out.

Interesting thread.
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Old 02-23-2010, 01:09 PM
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Sort of sounds like some of the stories coming out about some newer +P+ rounds. Con Bon did change the way pistol ammo was made and marketed. Like some ammo now, it certainly had it's detractors. hot loads...ie Some Cor Bon, and other high pressure rounds. I guess it depends on what you are shooting it with. Super Vel was popular in the late 60's and early 70's for LE. confusing then and confusing now.
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Old 02-24-2010, 10:55 AM
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Lee Jurras revolutionized pistol ammo with his SuperVel line. Yes the original was "hot" but it was also within accepted pressures. It was loaded to the top and slightly undersized jacketed bullets were used -that served to keep pressures under the ceiling with charges that would qualify as "overmax" with larger dimensioned projectiles. However, since cylinder mouths,forcing cone and barrel dimensions vary widely it should be no surprise that SOME guns gave evidence of overpressure rounds.
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Old 02-24-2010, 12:29 PM
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i went looking at home for some 38 wadcutters to load a few weeks ago, and found a box and a half of 44 Super Vel 180gr bullets.

If this stuff is collector status, let me know.


Charlie
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Old 02-24-2010, 03:01 PM
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Default super vel

Ok so how do the original "hot" super-vel loads in 38 spl compare with the current crop of 38 spl +P+ loadings? Enquiring minds want to know!

Trey
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Old 02-25-2010, 01:10 PM
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Your not kidding! I hear so many conflicting reports about super hot ammo I am confused. With all the expert commentary and knowledge on this forum somebody has to have the real facts about the super hot stuff. Good or Bad. Why do some manufactures state do not shoot +P+ ammo. What does it affect? Is there a difference between forged, cast, and polymer frames as to shooting the real hot stuff and what are the pressure differences between different ammo. Surely somebody has the real skinny on this. I have heard (not experienced that some ammo is just bad on some guns) Practicing for police work with regular pressure ammo and then carrying real hot stuff must have a relation to different results from practice to real shooting situations. I realize the adrenalin makes a difference but range scores then shouldn't be so different. Frankly I don't know and would like to hear from somebody that has the facts....thanks
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Old 02-25-2010, 01:41 PM
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In response to the prior post of Mr. Minze - As a full time range officer with Federal agency, we bought S/Vel by the truck load. Both 110gr .38 special and 110gr .357 mag. Guns used were M15 with 4 inch bbl, and M19 with 2 1/2 inch bbl. We had no gun problems with excessive wear and/or malfunctions. These guns shot thousands of rounds per year. We could not continue with the .357 due to the short ejector rod on the 2 1/2 inch models. All agents were issued .38 JHP (110gr) which was potent enough. If Treasury had bought the 3 inch bbl, there would have been no problems with ejection issues on the M19. We also used this ammo in training with the M60, 2 inch. Did not hurt the M60, however I did see barrels that were almost worn smooth from extensive firing. Since we were training new recruits, it was a tough assignment to get them used to S/Vel type recoil in a short period of time. It was too much for most rookies, and the women had a real hard time with it. Experienced shooters could adapt in the time allocated. I would not recommend using it in any gun that is not steel frame or stainless - this is the minimum required. Overall ammo - I'd say A+ for S/Vel.
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Old 02-25-2010, 02:18 PM
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I've still got some from "back in the day", meaning early 1970s. It was like gold back then. Being newly married, I was poor by definition. But with a rookie cop across the hall, we managed to scrape together enough money (read hide from wife) to buy a box of both 110gr offerings. The soft point and the hollow point in 357. We felt we were owning and carrying a nuclear arsenal. We felt rich.

When you folks elected the current crook, the ammo market went wild. My gun show partner came to the next show, then vanished. He was on a buying spree. He had no clue about Super-Vel, but a fair number of private tables and a few gun shops emptied their closets and were selling anything that even looked like ammo. When I saw what he was finding, I went out and bought a bunch, too.

I even found a couple of the "ammo wallets" they used to sell. They had no idea how hard those were to find, so they sold them cheap, like in the price range half empty boxes sold for. I was on a buying mission.

I feel ashamed that I was only finding and buying .38 or .357s. I now wish I'd have had the foresight to land a few boxes of .380, just as an investment.

We ended up shooting some of our ammo back in the later 1970s. As I recall, it was every bit as accurate as anything the other makers had. Point of impact was different from 158gr 357s, but you'd expect it to be. It was my first real experience with light fast bullets printing lower than heavy ones. Significantly lower.
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Old 02-25-2010, 06:15 PM
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Back in the 60's I was a Cincinnati cop I had started with Covington Ky as a dog handler. Cincinnati of course payed better and had a good range program. However those Covington Cops had no restrictions on what they carried (revolver) and they had one heck of a action filled job. Covington and Newport were where the action was. A lot of other things also. but you got a baptism of rough and tumble action and the weapons carried were a primer on what was hot and what was not. I have to admit I enjoyed the place. Money didn't even come close to Cincinnati then. But diffidently more fun. When my dog got hip displeasure I was looking and Cincinnati was looking for shooters. I guess those area's have become civilized but damn for a guy just out of the Marines it was one heck of a place to start.
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Old 02-26-2010, 04:57 PM
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I have a couple boxes of Jurras 148 grain HBWC reloads. any value there?
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Old 02-27-2010, 10:25 AM
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Default Working from memory

Ever since this thread started, I've been looking for my range books from the late '60s and I'm darned if I can find them. A lot of things got displaced/moved around during Ike, and my notes from '68-'72 are AWOL.

I thought SuperVel was as close as you could come to a death ray. I bought 9mm and 38/357 when ever I could (that is, when I could find it and had the money to pay for it).

Some of the bullet weights were unusual, like 112gr 9mm and 137gr 357.

In those days, I had 3 9mms, a 39-2, P-35, and a P-38. IIRC, the 39 would run OK with the 90 and 112 grs, but only from down loaded mags. If you tried to feed from a full mag a six oclock jam was certain (as opposed to just likely).

The P-35, mid '60s production, wouldn't cycle more than 3-4 round before producing a 12 oclock jam. And of course, the P-38 was a single shot.

The 38 and 357 were not match ammo, but out of my 2" Combat Masterpiece I seem to remember groups around 3-4" from sandbags @ 25yds. I think the 357 did about the same from a Highway Patrolman.

SuperVel was assumed to be very high velocity ammunition and there is no doubt in my mind that it was faster than anything else at the time. But no one had a chrono, so all we had to go by was what we saw in the gun rags, and very few of the gun writers of the day had any more hard information than the rest of us.

Last edited by Texas1941; 02-27-2010 at 10:26 AM. Reason: sp
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Old 02-27-2010, 06:27 PM
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Question Wallets

rburg wrote:

I even found a couple of the "ammo wallets" they used to sell. They had no idea how hard those were to find, so they sold them cheap, like in the price range half empty boxes sold for. I was on a buying mission.




So, what do the wallets bring? I came across 2 of them (1 .357 150 JHP and 1 .357 110 JSP) in a backwater bait & tackle last year. They are H&H production.

I also have 2 boxes of Fon du lac production 9mm 115gr. JHP I picked up in the late 80s.

I do not collect ammo (other than individual representative cartridges), I shoot it and reload the empties. If I hang onto this stuff I will eventually shoot it at a tin can or a porcupine, so I'd much rather trade it for an equal amount of that new wimpy stuff from Buffalo Bore or Grizzly and give a more enlightened soul the pride of owning a piece of history.
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Old 02-28-2010, 06:02 PM
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Old 02-28-2010, 10:49 PM
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Old 03-23-2010, 05:05 PM
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Thumbs up Good memories for me.

I'm bumping this thread just because I love all the old ammo threads.I have very fond memories of the old cops and the 1970's. Go figure. Nostolgia is a very weird thing.I remember Vietnam, oil embargos, Jimmy Carter, disco and stagflation as well, but that decade still has a weird rosey hue to it. Memories of a kid I guess.

I'm 42 and I've been a cop for ten years. But my dad was a cop for twenty-four years "back in the day" (1970-1994) and I remember those days. He started in 1970 with a Model 10. A new administration switched to the Model 28 in 73. The Model 65 came along in 79 and finally the 4586 in 1991.

My father still has several boxes of Super Vel 110 grain 38, 110 grain 357 magnum and the Winchester "law enforcement only" 110 grain SJHP +P+ sitting in his storage cabinet. All left over from when it was issued to him. Great stuff. Regardless of it actual performance it's great stuff to me. It takes me back to my childhood.

Old gruff cops with big heavy S&W Model 28's pulling down their belts, leather saps, gigantic flashlights that took twelve D cells (I'm exagerating), leather dress shoes with heavy rubber soles put on by a local shoe shop, huge patrol cars with V8 engines and a single light dome on top, big cluncky radar units and brown "night sticks" that seemed to be twelve feet long to a seven year old.

As you probably gathered from my recollection "Big and Huge" is a major factor. My father was/is a Vietnam veteran, but several of his fellow officers back then were WWII and Korean vets. I remember those guys sitting around trading war stories. I would sit for hours listening to them. Many of the stories were probably larger than life but I didn't care.

I love the old Super Vel ammo (and it's red and yellow box) for what it represents to me. I've exchanged e-mails in the past with Mr. Juras and he got a kick out of my nostolgia. Thanks guys for everything.

Just thought I would present a different take on this thread. For you veterans of the day it's just old ammo that has been passed over by technology, but for me it's part of my youth.

Great stuff.
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Old 03-23-2010, 07:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Checkman View Post
... Great stuff.
Great post, checkman.

The picture of the box of Super Vel ammo I posted a couple of posts back was my dad's. As a kid developing an interest in guns, I'd go through his guns & ammo, disassemble & clean the guns, and he'd tell me about them.

He's gone now, but I'm reminded of him when I see some of his old ammo (and guns).

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Old 03-23-2010, 09:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gunsmithattheguncloset View Post
Ok so how do the original "hot" super-vel loads in 38 spl compare with the current crop of 38 spl +P+ loadings? Enquiring minds want to know!

Trey
They have a pretty good bite, much more so than the Remington 125 +P I've tried in my no dash Model 36, but not nearly as spicy as those old Norma rounds.
Super Vel= Serrano peppers
Remington +P = Jalapeno
Norma= Habanero
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Old 03-23-2010, 09:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marshall 357 View Post
I have a 1/2 of box full of 110 gr JHP 38 spl. A guy at work gave them to me, they were $7.45 for a box of 50. I dont know how old they are.
The box of them I have carries a $7.65 price tag and were purchased in the Detroit area in 1972. Your are probably pretty close in age.
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Old 03-23-2010, 09:27 PM
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Old gruff cops with big heavy S&W Model 28's pulling down their belts, leather saps, gigantic flashlights that took twelve D cells (I'm exagerating), leather dress shoes with heavy rubber soles put on by a local shoe shop, huge patrol cars with V8 engines and a single light dome on top, big cluncky radar units and brown "night sticks"

Keerful thar Sonny, I resemble them fellers. *G*

Right after I quit law enforcement and went back to ranching, the outfit I worked for issued brand new Model 66's and Super Vel ammo. They had a policy of practicing with what they carried. They shot those model 66's loose in just a few years and traded them in for 9mm autos.

I was glad I was gone.

Last edited by Iggy; 03-23-2010 at 09:46 PM.
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Old 03-24-2010, 12:49 AM
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They're great memories Iggy. Alot of those old cops are now gone, but a few are still around though all have long since retired. A few years ago dad gave me his old Remington 870 duty shotgun. He had to buy his own back then. It's a Wingmaster with a 20 inch barrel and an extended magazine.It's only proofed for 2 3/4 shells. It's a high grade sporting shotgun that has been converted to patrol duty. It's got it's share of dings and scratches, but it still shoots true. I thought that crazy old shotgun was the greatest when I was a kid and I still do.
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Old 03-24-2010, 12:58 AM
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I have a box of 9MMs and a box of 357s, neither complete, alas. Lee Jurras made the first truly reliable expanding bullet handgun ammo, alas, the Big Boys crowded him out.
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Old 03-24-2010, 01:43 AM
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The only thing I have every shot with S/Vel Shelbyville, other than paper, was a BIG whitetail doe back in the late 1970's. I harvested her with a Marlin 1894 in 44 Mag/Spcl with a 20" barrel using S/Vel 240 gr 44 Mag. All I can say without getting too graphic is in one shoulder, no heart or lungs left to speak of and out the other side. That S/Vel 44 Mag 240 gr turned the front of that deer into ground venison. All that was left to put in the freezer was two hams, one shoulder and the back straps. I've still got thirty-seven rounds left from the original box that harvested that doe. Lord have pitty one the soul that decides to break into my house as those same S/Vels are loaded in that same rifle doing duty as one of my HD guns. Plus it's good not to have neighbors close enough where you have to worry over penetration.

Class III

Last edited by Class III; 03-24-2010 at 01:47 AM. Reason: Sppelingg
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Old 03-24-2010, 03:03 AM
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I probably have 20 boxes of the stuff, all full. I collected the 9,45, 38 and 357 in full boxes for my collection. I few years ago I bought 10 boxes of 38 for 5 bucks a box. I was going to use it for plinking.
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Old 03-29-2010, 02:04 AM
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what does a nice box of super vels bring ?
say a box of 50 110 gr .357 from shelbyville ? just curious as to see where the market is one these....of course I'm sure you guys are like me they'd have to be cheap before you'd buy them.
40 bucks?
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Old 04-02-2010, 09:20 PM
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si---------

Last edited by sw282; 07-03-2011 at 02:59 AM.
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Old 04-02-2010, 09:56 PM
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My dad bought a post WW II .38 special M&P in the late '60s. The salesman sold him a box of Super Vels to go with it, as those rounds were "the best for self defense".

My dad shot six rounds, I shot six rounds, my mom shot one round and then the M&P quit on her. The forcing cone had split.

The dealer sent the gun back to S&W, who put on a new barrel. The Super Vels were traded for a box of 158 grain RNL.
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Old 04-11-2010, 06:00 PM
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I started handloading back in the late sixties but out of curiosity I bought a couple of boxes of the Super Vel ammo (around 1970 or so).I found it to be good stuff.They finally went under due to competition.

Handgun shooters have profited in many ways ever since because of them.The big ammo makers were only marketing what they thought would sell the best and had no interest in broadening their selection.The popularity of Super Vel changed all that.

As an aside,their lightweight jacketed hollow and soft point bullets driven to good velocities opened my eyes.The gun scribes at that time(as well as many today)criticized such loads continuously but I discovered their worth rather quickly.Such ammo is not ideal for every use and no one claims they are.However,the condemnation by many (then and now) is something that I ignore.Too many gun rag gurus(then and now) are placed on pedestals and they don't deserve it.Yes,I know that I'm digressing.

At any rate,Super Vel changed what the market had available and handgun shooters have definately benefited from it.
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Old 04-11-2010, 07:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tpd223 View Post
Antique ammo should be sold or collected, not shot.
Watch that ANTIQUE stuff! Super-Vel was very popular during my young adult days. You're making me feel OLD.

FN in MT
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