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Old 03-14-2010, 06:28 PM
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Default Remington .38 Spl. SJHP "for 2-2 1/2" barrels".

Here's a box of ammo that came in a Rock Island Auctions lot I just received.I've never seen one like it.As the photo shows,it's marked FOR 2-2 1/2" BARRELS.I thought you all might enjoy seeing it.
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Old 03-14-2010, 06:43 PM
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I wonder if that designation is because there were accuracy problems with some light bullets in snubnose guns?

I recall getting keyholes at short range with Nyclad loads from a snub.
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Old 03-14-2010, 06:50 PM
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I used that load in my snubbies in the early 1970's
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Old 03-14-2010, 07:36 PM
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Cool box, never seen it before, thanks for showing us!
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Old 03-14-2010, 10:52 PM
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I have a couple of boxes around here somewhere. I bought 200 rds back in the late seventies, I think. Remington promoted it as a load to give 2" bbl revolvers the same muzzle energy as the then standard158 gr LRN gave from a 4" bbl. They advertised it some in the gun rags and also in some of their LE flyers.

The official story was that it would produce something like 250-255 fpe, which is about what a 158 gr would produce at 850fps.

Problem was, one, none of the service 158s produced anywhere near 850 fps from a 4" bbl, and everyone knew it. What we didn't know was how much lower the actual velocity was. We thought we were getting around 790 fps from the 4' tube. 690-700 was probably a more realistic high end number.

Problem two was that to produce energy levels in the 250 fpe range, the bullet would have to exit the muzzle at somewhere between 1050 and 1100 fps, and there was a general belief that this load would not produce that sort of velocity. Of course, no one had any way to actually measure velocity, so yet again all we could do is guess, or trust the factory numbers. At any rate, this item was in the Remington catalog for a relative short period of time. I want to say two or three years, but perhaps it was longer than that.

I'll dig up some of these and the next time I set up the machine, I'll see what they do out of my 642.
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Old 03-14-2010, 11:55 PM
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I don't know what they chronoed, but they would blow a clean hole a good bit bigger than themselves, approx .40 through a 1/8" thick mild steel sheet, old retired road sign, from a 2in bodyguard
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Old 03-15-2010, 09:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Texas1941 View Post
Problem was, one, none of the service 158s produced anywhere near 850 fps from a 4" bbl, and everyone knew it. What we didn't know was how much lower the actual velocity was. We thought we were getting around 790 fps from the 4' tube. 690-700 was probably a more realistic high end number.
It is refreshing to see another cop of that day acknowledge that we knew the older standard loads were not producing their advertised velocities. Today many younger people look back at the old factory ammo listings and think the standard loads of yesteryear were hot, but those of us using it knew those claims were overstated.

Last edited by stiab; 03-15-2010 at 04:47 PM. Reason: Spelling
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Old 03-15-2010, 07:28 PM
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Is this round simply the Remington 95 grain JHP +p, also later discontinued? It LOOKS and seems to be the same. Didn't the +p designation for all over-pressure ammo come in about 1972-73 sometime?

Mike
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Old 03-15-2010, 08:03 PM
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I tried these back in the day....I stuck with the 158 grn FBI load....but I certainly do remember them
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Old 03-15-2010, 11:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stiab View Post
It is refreshing to see another cop of that day acknowledge that we knew the older standard loads were not producing their advertised velocities. Today many younger people look back at the old factory ammo listings and think the standard loads of yesteryear were hot, but those of us using it knew those claims were overstated.
Wish I could claim to have real LE experience, but I was just a dispatcher for a couple of the smaller local departments while I was going to school. And that was forty years ago. I've always been a gun nut and a lot of the officers I worked with were the same. Many of them were young men just back from Viet Nam and they took their firearms seriously. I learned a lot and maybe shared a little (I hope).

I try to be careful about what I post and rely on some sort of documentation when I can. If I'm making a WAG, I try to state that up front. But any opinion I express is just that of a retired airline manager, nothing more.

Back to the point here, you are absolutely correct about the information the major ammo makers published in the '60s and '70s. Much of it was wildly optimistic and none of it can be taken at face value. If the stuff worked as advertised, most of the cartridge development of the last 30 years would have been unneccessary. For example: when it was first introduced the Remington 38 SPL 125 gr SJHP was factory listed at over 1300 fps. If that were true, who would need magic bullets? I'd still be a happy camper using that load.

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Charles
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Old 03-15-2010, 11:25 PM
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no one I knew, or knew of, had chronographs back in the day...we had to judge things by feel, or sound....or how many phone books a round would go through...or newspapers...or car doors...or whatever else we could find...
the ammo makers were full of it...we just couldn't prove it...
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  #12  
Old 03-17-2010, 01:21 PM
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I reload those Rem.95 SJHP in 38sp and 357mag. Rem. p/n B22944.

They are a discontinued item,but I'll occasionally find them at gun shows as an obscure/strange item.
I chronographed those factory loads at 1000fps avg. out of a 3" Mdl.36 and 1270fps avg. out of a 6" Mdl.19.
In reloading those bullets,at the extreme high end of testing,I attained in 38sp reloads 1450 fps out of the 3" and 1600 fps out of the 6",in 357mag reloads I attained 1750 fps out of the 6".
Because of their lightweight,they can be pushed wickedly fast.Those were just maximum feasability test loads and as you can imagine,extremely flattened primers and difficult case extraction was the norm for those loads.

Last edited by oldman10mm; 03-17-2010 at 09:07 PM.
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Old 03-17-2010, 06:25 PM
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Oldman, I'm curious (and not at all disagreeable) why are you intrigued by this light for caliber bullet? Is it just so that you can see how fast you can push a .38? I'm sensing that perhaps I have something to learn here.
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Old 03-17-2010, 07:37 PM
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manufacturers strive for higher velocities(regular loads versus +P loads),but they have safety and liability constraints,why can't us handloaders do what the ammo manufacturers won't/can't do.
the 38sp evolved into the 357m to attain higher velocities with those bullet weights of the 38sp(notice I said weight not design),the 357sig pushes 9mm projectiles faster than a 9mm factory load can,the 357max goes beyond the 357m.It's a constant evolvement to increase velocity.I load 88/90 380 bullets into 9mm(same bullet dia).
Hydrostatic effect(larger cavities in gelatin tests,tissue destruction in simulated flesh/body tests) increases as velocity increases.
Rifle cartridges are also evolving along the same lines,there's always a cartridge that comes along to speed up a bullet.
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Old 03-17-2010, 08:57 PM
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While I don't have one in reach, the ammo "booklets" that were in the box with revolvers in the '70's, were wildly optimistic. S&W had a .357 mag load that claimed 2001 fps IIRC. Never happened. Joe
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Old 03-17-2010, 09:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oldman10mm View Post
manufacturers strive for higher velocities(regular loads versus +P loads),but they have safety and liability constraints,why can't us handloaders do what the ammo manufacturers won't/can't do.
I've been down that same road myself.
Quote:
The 38sp evolved into the 357m to attain higher velocities with those bullet weights of the 38sp(notice I said weight not design),the 357sig pushes 9mm projectiles faster than a 9mm factory load can,the 357max goes beyond the 357m.It's a constant evolvement to increase velocity.I load 88/90 380 bullets into 9mm(same bullet dia).
Hydrostatic effect(larger cavities in gelatin tests,tissue destruction in simulated flesh/body tests) increases as velocity increases.
Rifle cartridges are also evolving along the same lines,there's always a cartridge that comes along to speed up a bullet.
Neat post. Thanks.
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Old 03-17-2010, 11:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oldman10mm View Post
In reloading those bullets,at the extreme high end of testing,I attained in 38sp reloads 1450 fps out of the 3"
Interesting stats, thanks. On the Super Vel test post elsewhere on this page, I clocked their 90 grain 9mm at average 1409 fps from a semi-auto 4" barrel, similar to your revolver 3" barrel. Same concept that you discuss in regard to higher and higher velocity.
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Old 03-18-2010, 12:07 AM
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I think I bought some of the same 95 grain bullets on sale (possibly at Midway USA) several years ago. I found a box of them in the reloading room a while back.

Can't recall if I ever loaded rounds with them.
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Old 03-18-2010, 08:59 AM
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There's a forgotten era/aspect of factory ammo. I've been reloading since the mid 70s'. Super Vel started the lightweight bullet/high velocity era. They put light bullets in 38sp & 357m and 180jhp in 44m. Soon the other major manufacturers started doing it too. As bullet expansion technology got better,the need/want slowly went away. The current crop of wickedly expanding bullets far surpasses what existed before.
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Old 03-21-2010, 09:06 PM
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Ran 10 rounds of the 95 gr Hi Speed over the machine this afternoon

Ammunition:
Remington 95 gr SJHP 38 SPL marked for 2-2 1/2" bbl stock #5038
Gun:
S&W 642-2 1 7/8" bbl
Conditions:
Temp 57 degF RH 55% wind 21 MPH lateral, gusts to 31
Ten shot average:
1060 fps High 1101 Low 1009 ES 92

ES is a little high, but this stuff is getting a bit old (I've honestly never been able to decide how much difference that makes, or when it starts to count).

Anyway, that's the result from one lot, on one day, from one gun.

Charles
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Old 03-21-2010, 10:11 PM
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good reference
you got 1060fps out of 1 7/8" barrel,I got 1000fps out of 3" barrel.Considering different batch,different gun,different chronograph,I'd say there's some consistency there.
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