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  #1  
Old 04-22-2010, 03:45 AM
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Are todays .38 +P loads closer to .357 loads? Are todays .38 +P loads closer to .357 loads? Are todays .38 +P loads closer to .357 loads? Are todays .38 +P loads closer to .357 loads? Are todays .38 +P loads closer to .357 loads?  
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If anything, the current .38 Special loads are downloaded compared to the "good ol' days" of yesteryear.

The truly good thing is, bullet technology has come a long way in the past 10-15 years. The Barnes X bullet performs very well, even at .38 Special velocities.
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Old 04-22-2010, 09:27 AM
RetLawman590 RetLawman590 is offline
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Are todays .38 +P loads closer to .357 loads? Are todays .38 +P loads closer to .357 loads? Are todays .38 +P loads closer to .357 loads? Are todays .38 +P loads closer to .357 loads? Are todays .38 +P loads closer to .357 loads?  
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Hi,

Interested in buying a 315NG (.38+p) with 2.5" barrel for CCW and Home Defense. Only concern is ballistic performance of the .38. Last time I owned a .38 was twenty years ago. How much have the ballistics improved since then? Anything out there that gets you close to a .357 load? Or am I better off with the 386NG and loading it with lighter .357 loads for accuracy?

Thanks
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Old 04-22-2010, 09:30 AM
Glock 'em down Glock 'em down is offline
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In a snubbie, a .38 Special, either standard or +P load, will do it's job if you do yours.

The .38 Special has really received a bad rap over the years, but it's consistantly killed more people than probably any other handgun caliber.

.45ACP and 9mm being a close 2nd.
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Old 04-22-2010, 09:56 AM
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Are todays .38 +P loads closer to .357 loads? Are todays .38 +P loads closer to .357 loads? Are todays .38 +P loads closer to .357 loads? Are todays .38 +P loads closer to .357 loads? Are todays .38 +P loads closer to .357 loads?  
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No, there are no .38 Spl +P loadings that are anywhere near a .357 Magnum loading. The max SAAMI pressures for a .38 Special are a bit more than half that for a .357 Magnum, and there's as yet no magic way around physics. In fact, a more accurate statement would be that "A lot of today's '.357 Magnum' factory loadings are closer to the old .38-44 factory loadings."

That said, Glock 'em down is, IMHO, correct in his statement about the usefulness of the .38 Special in defensive loads. It is a perfectly useful caliber. Many (I won't say all) of today's modern .38 Special bullets provide really effective penetration and minimize chances of overpenetration. They're more likely to expand than bullets of the past, as well, which can help (provided they penetrate far enough).

It's more important that you be able to place the bullets accurately. The .38 Special can certainly do that, but you'll want to put some thought and study into aiming for specific human vital areas (this is true of any handgun - even the Magnums). Another benefit of the .38 Special is that you'll be likely to be able to place a follow-up shot faster (especially with your Al/Sc-framed gun), and this is often necessary in a defensive situation with any handgun (again, even the Magnums).
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Old 04-22-2010, 06:13 PM
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Are todays .38 +P loads closer to .357 loads? Are todays .38 +P loads closer to .357 loads? Are todays .38 +P loads closer to .357 loads? Are todays .38 +P loads closer to .357 loads? Are todays .38 +P loads closer to .357 loads?  
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Thanks, ok let me put it another way. Do you think there are any .38+P loads with similar ballistics to at least 9mm +P loads?
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Old 04-22-2010, 07:29 PM
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Are todays .38 +P loads closer to .357 loads? Are todays .38 +P loads closer to .357 loads? Are todays .38 +P loads closer to .357 loads? Are todays .38 +P loads closer to .357 loads? Are todays .38 +P loads closer to .357 loads?  
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Winchester's 158gr LSWCHP +P load has a good reputation, in numerous actual shootings.
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Old 04-22-2010, 07:48 PM
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Are todays .38 +P loads closer to .357 loads? Are todays .38 +P loads closer to .357 loads? Are todays .38 +P loads closer to .357 loads? Are todays .38 +P loads closer to .357 loads? Are todays .38 +P loads closer to .357 loads?  
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Quote:
Do you think there are any .38+P loads with similar ballistics to at least 9mm +P loads?
124-gr at just shy of 1200 fps? No - there are none.

When S&W came out with the 547 back in the '80s, everyone got all het up over how the 9mm outperformed the .38 from an identical gun. The thing is that you're comparing different strengths - you'll not find a 9x19 throwing a 158-grain bullet at 1k fps, and that's pretty easy to achieve in a .38 Special with a 4" tube. It's also nothing to sneeze at - and is a better round for some tasks. It depends on what you want to do - I tend to go with the heavier .38s, myself, since that's the strength of the cartridge. For instance, I have some handloads that throw a 190-grain bullet at 850 fps from a 1 7/8" barrel. That's probably more than you want for defense against a person, since it's not likely to stop inside him.

There are plenty of .357 Mag loads that essentially duplicate a 9mm +P, FWIW. If that's what you're looking for ballistically, maybe you ought not get the 315 . . ..

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Old 04-22-2010, 08:05 PM
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Are todays .38 +P loads closer to .357 loads? Are todays .38 +P loads closer to .357 loads? Are todays .38 +P loads closer to .357 loads? Are todays .38 +P loads closer to .357 loads? Are todays .38 +P loads closer to .357 loads?  
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Well just to stir the pot a little bit, if one does not mind paying for boutique ammo there is always Buffalo Bore .38SPL +P. This stuff has been tested quite a bit by various forum members here and folks else where. It does live up to it's reputation and in some cases exceeds it slightly too. The Buffalo Bore .38SPL +P 125gr loading is the only 125gr load that I'm aware of that will meet and exceed 1200fps. You will not however be able to obtain this type of performance with any ammunition put out by the big three.

Heavy 38 Special + P Pistol & Handgun Ammunition

Various .38 Special from a 4 inch revolver
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Old 04-22-2010, 08:59 PM
David Sinko David Sinko is offline
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Are todays .38 +P loads closer to .357 loads? Are todays .38 +P loads closer to .357 loads?  
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A 124 gr. bullet just shy of 1200 FPS? I have gotten 1180 FPS in my 2" 9mm Model 940 with 124 gr. jacketed bullets. I have exceeded 1200 FPS with 124 gr. cast bullets. These are serviceable loads that extract freely.

I am no fan of light bullets in the .38 Special and I have no experience with handloading 125 gr. bullets, but I suspect 1200 FPS is feasible. I am convinced that the .38 Special can at least duplicate anything the 9mm can do, and at lower pressure. Again, this is out of 2" barrels.

I have found that these two cartridges are very similar out of 2" barrels. Actually I should say 2" J Frames. I'm playing around with my recently acquired Model 64s and it seems they do not hold the pressures as well as the J Frames.

Dave Sinko
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Old 04-22-2010, 11:21 PM
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Are todays .38 +P loads closer to .357 loads? Are todays .38 +P loads closer to .357 loads? Are todays .38 +P loads closer to .357 loads? Are todays .38 +P loads closer to .357 loads? Are todays .38 +P loads closer to .357 loads?  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RetLawman590 View Post
Thanks, ok let me put it another way. Do you think there are any .38+P loads with similar ballistics to at least 9mm +P loads?


The CorBon 110gr JHP with the Sierra bullet out of a 4" barrel usually clocks around 1250fps.

The well-proven Federal 9BPLE 115gr JHP in 9mm runs around 1300fps.
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Old 04-23-2010, 08:58 AM
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Are todays .38 +P loads closer to .357 loads? Are todays .38 +P loads closer to .357 loads? Are todays .38 +P loads closer to .357 loads? Are todays .38 +P loads closer to .357 loads? Are todays .38 +P loads closer to .357 loads?  
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Daryl is right; I'd forgotten about Buffalo Bore. Of course, you'll still only be looking at about 1100 fps (from BB's own data) with the barrel length that's on that 315.

Steve Camp's data has the (even lighter) 110-gr DPX .38 +P round doing 1174 fps from a 1 7/8" barrel. That's walking up to 9mm +P performance as well. But you're down fifteen grains on the bullet.

Like David's, my 940 gave me real respect for the 9x19 as a cartridge. The high pressure throws those light bullets really fast from short barrels. People can try (obviously BB did), but you'll not really find .38 Special loads to match this sort of performance. Just like you'll not find a 9mm that can throw a heavy bullet the way a .38 can.

If you want a 9, buy a 9. If you want a .38, but the 315. If you want something that can do both, buy a .357.

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Old 04-23-2010, 09:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich View Post
In fact, a more accurate statement would be that "A lot of today's '.357 Magnum' factory loadings are closer to the old .38-44 factory loadings."
That's exactly how I was thinking. When ya look back , the original .357 magnum loads push a 158gr bullet at 1500fps. (Bad choice to use a soft swaged lead bullet though as they cause severe leading.) I have fired some 'vintage' .357 loads along with some modern stuff , and ya can definately tell the diff from the recoil and noise.
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Old 04-23-2010, 10:08 AM
RetLawman590 RetLawman590 is offline
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Are todays .38 +P loads closer to .357 loads? Are todays .38 +P loads closer to .357 loads? Are todays .38 +P loads closer to .357 loads? Are todays .38 +P loads closer to .357 loads? Are todays .38 +P loads closer to .357 loads?  
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Thanks for all the replies. I've finally decided to purchase the 386NG and stick with today's .357 rds for carry and some practice. I will also practice with +P s of course.
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Old 04-24-2010, 06:59 AM
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Are todays .38 +P loads closer to .357 loads? Are todays .38 +P loads closer to .357 loads? Are todays .38 +P loads closer to .357 loads? Are todays .38 +P loads closer to .357 loads? Are todays .38 +P loads closer to .357 loads?  
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I shot some of BB's +P 158gr loads yesterday at the range with my SP101. They are pretty stout when fired out of my wife's 642, though easily controllable out of the 101. I took along some old UMC 125gr JHP .357's I found in the garage last week. As hot as the BB's are, they had much less kick and blast than the .357's. I'd forgotten what shooting magnums were like. I had sticking cases when emptying the UMC'S.
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Old 04-24-2010, 09:34 AM
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I never shot any of the Buffalo Bore .38 Special loads over the chrono but I was able to break 1100 FPS with 158 gr. SWC handloads in my short SP-101. I am reluctant to try to achieve this same velocity in my Model 60-7 .38 Special. Also, I have just learned that the powder I use for this load is inverse temperature sensitive so I need to be very careful at the upper limits.

Another great 9mm load in the 940 is the 147 gr. Gold Dot loaded to 1076 FPS. This is a pretty impressive load for a pocket gun. I don't know if anybody factory loads an equivalent. A few outfits make some stout 147 gr. loads but I don't know if they can match the velocity I'm getting in my 940 or if they'd extract.

All said and done, I think the .38 Special is always going to have a slight edge in power over the 9mm but the difference is practically insignificant in a 2" barrel. The 9mm is definitely the bright shining star in the 2" revolver. Some shooters are converting their J Frames to .38 Super, 9x21 and .356 TSW. Another interesting consideration with my heavy handloads is that I have gotten to the point with the 9mm where increasing the powder charges does not yield any higher velocity. It looks like I have actually reached the point of diminishing return and a 2" barrel simply can not burn any more powder. Cartridges like the .38 Super and .38 Special will handle heavier bullets, but if you want to use 124 to 147 gr. bullets it looks like the 9mm might actually be the best performing cartridge of all.

Dave Sinko
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Old 03-02-2015, 01:28 AM
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Are todays .38 +P loads closer to .357 loads? Are todays .38 +P loads closer to .357 loads? Are todays .38 +P loads closer to .357 loads? Are todays .38 +P loads closer to .357 loads?  
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Cartridges like the .38 Super and .38 Special will handle heavier bullets, but if you want to use 124 to 147 gr. bullets it looks like the 9mm might actually be the best performing cartridge of all.

Dave Sinko[/QUOTE]

This is an old thread and very interesting to a novice such as I am. I am guessing that the 9mm v .38 debate is one which can generate a lot of interest. I look at the two cartridge assemblies and it is no contest, but I am a rookie.

Any thoughts?
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Old 03-02-2015, 02:27 AM
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Are todays .38 +P loads closer to .357 loads? Are todays .38 +P loads closer to .357 loads? Are todays .38 +P loads closer to .357 loads? Are todays .38 +P loads closer to .357 loads? Are todays .38 +P loads closer to .357 loads?  
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I see a 4" 38 special 125gr JHP +P at 945 fps with 248 ft/lbs of energy.

A 4" .357 Magnum with a 125gr JHP at 1448fps has 582 ft/lbs energy.

The 38 special will never be close to the .357 loads in energy.

A 5-6" 9mm +P 124gr can come close to the .357 depending on the ammo maker.
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Old 03-02-2015, 03:29 AM
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Are todays .38 +P loads closer to .357 loads? Are todays .38 +P loads closer to .357 loads? Are todays .38 +P loads closer to .357 loads? Are todays .38 +P loads closer to .357 loads? Are todays .38 +P loads closer to .357 loads?  
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Yes, with "modern .357" many of the latest loads are more moderate . Makes sense with the proliferation of small frame and/or exotic materials to moderate the recoil for the consumer's benefit for better control/ less pain.

Back when I chrono'ed everything , CorBon 110gr .38 essentially matched WWB 110gr .357 from 2.75in bbl.

9mm will have an advantage in expansion ratio short bbls .

Light vs heavy bullet is an eternal debate. If you are a true believer in heavy , the .38/.357 will have an inherent advantage. If you are comfortable with 110/115gr , the 9mm will have and advantage in 2in , but the longer the bbl , the gap closes. If you get all apple and oranges and compare a top end 158 LHP to a 9mm std pressure 115 , you've got a spirited all night campfire discussion.
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Old 03-02-2015, 08:05 AM
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Are todays .38 +P loads closer to .357 loads? Are todays .38 +P loads closer to .357 loads? Are todays .38 +P loads closer to .357 loads? Are todays .38 +P loads closer to .357 loads? Are todays .38 +P loads closer to .357 loads?  
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I certainly wouldn't shoot this load in my 642 but, I have a 38 special 158 gr jacketed load using 2400 that clocks 1150' in my 357 rifle.
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Old 03-02-2015, 08:21 AM
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Are todays .38 +P loads closer to .357 loads? Are todays .38 +P loads closer to .357 loads? Are todays .38 +P loads closer to .357 loads? Are todays .38 +P loads closer to .357 loads? Are todays .38 +P loads closer to .357 loads?  
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Zombie thread.
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Old 03-02-2015, 08:38 AM
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Are todays .38 +P loads closer to .357 loads? Are todays .38 +P loads closer to .357 loads? Are todays .38 +P loads closer to .357 loads? Are todays .38 +P loads closer to .357 loads? Are todays .38 +P loads closer to .357 loads?  
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I see performance between 9mm and .38sp as a wash. As others have observed, the 9's wheelhouse lies in lighter weight bullets which compliment the small case and higher pressure. Once the weights get up over the 147gr you'll see .38sp gain an edge...and it can keep going.
IMO almost everything .38sp is marketed toward lightweight snubby revolvers where most people want a balance of performance and shootability, basically a low recoil alternative to .357mag...so loads like the 135gr Gold Dot are really about as much as the remfedchester bunch is willing to go.
9mm is first and foremost a pistol round, meant for recoil operated guns. It has to be loaded to sufficient pressure and performance to insure reliable function across a broad range of guns. So it makes sense that 9mm isn't going to look too mild from a snubby since it's essentially the same amount of 'runway' as a 3.5" pistol.
.38sp is loaded across a pretty broad range of pressures because it can without affecting reliable function of a revolver. You want wadcutters at 600fps, no problem. You want 158gr at 1000fps from a snubby, it can do that too. Being able to use lead bullets offers it the ability to drive heavier slugs pretty fast, faster than 9mm sometimes, with about half the pressure.
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Old 03-03-2015, 12:03 AM
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I have loaded for a 3" 9mm with standard "Safe" Luger loads
with a 115gr at 1168 fps and 348 ME
and a 124gr at 1118 fps with 344 ME

My maximum loading for my all Steel M49 revolver was with a
125gr JHP was at 952 fps with 251 ME.
This load is actually a K frame load and will not be used again
in my little M49 J frame since it is possibly at 100% and I prefer
98% if possible for a little insurance.
Actually the factory Remington 125 hits around 900 fps in the 2"
in its new house SD load................... ( Hint )

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Old 03-03-2015, 12:31 AM
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And how is it a good idea to bring back a 5 year old thread which is arguing about the 9mm vs 38/357?
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Old 03-03-2015, 06:55 AM
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And how is it a good idea to bring back a 5 year old thread which is arguing about the 9mm vs 38/357?
Because it hasn't been discussed in the interim...not even once.
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Old 03-03-2015, 10:22 AM
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Are todays .38 +P loads closer to .357 loads? Are todays .38 +P loads closer to .357 loads? Are todays .38 +P loads closer to .357 loads? Are todays .38 +P loads closer to .357 loads? Are todays .38 +P loads closer to .357 loads?  
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Well the reanimation started out with .38+P vs .357 first before going astray into 9mm.
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Old 03-03-2015, 02:01 PM
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Sorry, I'm a bad boy.............

I will go stand in the corner now.
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Old 03-03-2015, 03:33 PM
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Seems to me that today's .357 magnum loads are almost the same as yesteryear's .38 Special plus p.....nowhere near what they once were!

Randy
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Old 03-03-2015, 03:51 PM
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Zombie thread.
This happens, of course, because the opening page of this Forum:

http://smith-wessonforum.com//

Always has a couple of dozen threads listed and it picks them out somewhat randomly from the archives and often it selects old threads. If you don't see the dates when you post you just kicked an old thread into a new existence. In this case, I think it's pretty entertaining and informative!
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Old 03-03-2015, 04:51 PM
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Seems to me that today's .357 magnum loads are almost the same as yesteryear's .38 Special plus p.....nowhere near what they once were!

Randy
I think that's probably an over generalization.

For example, Federal's current .357 Magnum "promo" load with a 158 gr JSP average 1296 fps in my 4" revolver, and with an SD of only 9 fps. The bullet is not high tech, but the load offers good performance and accuracy, with a very high degree of consistency. Not bad for a promo load.

Winchester's 158 gr JHP self defense load in comparison generated an average velocity of 1225 fps with an SD 20 fps in the same 4" revolver.

The Federal's 1296 fps is every bit as hard as I can push a 158 gr XTP in a 4" revolver, and it's close to the 1340 fps that I regard as maximum in a 6" revolver using 15.5 gr of 2400.

----

Now…some folks also might be confusing yesterday's .38 +P loads with yesterdays .38 Special +P+ loads. In the 1970's it was not always PC to shoot bad guys with a .357 magnum and many departments ordered .357 Magnum revolvers, but specified they be chambered in .38 Special. Ruger, for example, shipped a lot of Police Service Sixes to police departments chambered in .38 Special.

Many of these same departments and federal agencies however then loaded these ".38 Specials" with .38 +P+ rounds. They varied in pressure from 23,500 psi to 30,000 psi. At 30,000 psi a 125 gr or 158 gr +P+ load gave about 90% of the performance of a .357 Magnum.

The old Border Patrol load was no where near 30,000 psi but would still launch a 125 gr HP at 1,200 fps from a 4" revolver.

In comparison, a 20,000 psi .38 Special +P load will achieve 1050 fps from the same 4" revolver.

---

There also may be some confusion with the pre-.357 Magnum .38-44 loads. These were intended for large N frame .38 Specials and it's essentially what led to the development of the longer .357 Magnum.

I have .38-44 load data that will send a 158 gr XTP downrange at 1250 fps out of a 6" barrel. That's for all intents and purposes .357 magnum performance compared with the Winchester example above, and it's only 50 fps off the pace for the Federal example.

Last edited by BB57; 03-03-2015 at 04:52 PM.
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  #30  
Old 03-04-2015, 12:02 PM
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Are todays .38 +P loads closer to .357 loads? Are todays .38 +P loads closer to .357 loads?  
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Groo here
The thing to remember in all these discussions is, your talking about
two different platforms.
The 9mm [ in an auto] must fit in a very specific envelope.
Length,pressure,recoil,etc. and the bullet must feed.
The 38spec [in a revolver] has much looser requirements
of length, pressure,kick and bullet construction.
Each platform works with rounds "specificely" intended for it.
The 38 is slow for most 9mm type HP bullets but the
SWC-HP lead 38 type works well.
The 9mm has problems feeding the 38 bullet but works fine with it's own.
You need to pick , the action type, then the load that suits YOU.
Good luck , I have been shooting almost 50 years and have a safe full,
and am still looking for "The One".
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Old 07-04-2016, 09:44 PM
kd5exp kd5exp is offline
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Are todays .38 +P loads closer to .357 loads? Are todays .38 +P loads closer to .357 loads? Are todays .38 +P loads closer to .357 loads? Are todays .38 +P loads closer to .357 loads? Are todays .38 +P loads closer to .357 loads?  
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Hey I like these old threads. I sat and read the whole thing. I shoot and reload 9mm, 38 sp, 357 mag, 40 S&W and 45 acp. The 38 sp is so versatile and mine shoots very good, sorry it's a Colt. Always though of a 9mm as a small round but it has plenty of power. I have so many different bullets for the 38 lead and jacketed. Next gun going to be a 357 lever action rifle. Looked at a Henry the other day and it's going to take some work to get all the drool of the glass there.
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Old 07-04-2016, 11:57 PM
reddog81 reddog81 is offline
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Are todays .38 +P loads closer to .357 loads? Are todays .38 +P loads closer to .357 loads? Are todays .38 +P loads closer to .357 loads? Are todays .38 +P loads closer to .357 loads? Are todays .38 +P loads closer to .357 loads?  
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  #33  
Old 07-05-2016, 01:15 AM
cowboy4evr cowboy4evr is offline
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Are todays .38 +P loads closer to .357 loads? Are todays .38 +P loads closer to .357 loads? Are todays .38 +P loads closer to .357 loads? Are todays .38 +P loads closer to .357 loads? Are todays .38 +P loads closer to .357 loads?  
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I shoot the Keith bullet Lyman 358429 in a 38 special case with great effectiveness . It weighs approx 173 grs .
I reload the 9mm also . It's ok , but it definitely has it's limitations . The 38 spec is a very accommodating cartridge , from light weights , less than 100 grs up to 200 gr round nose bullets . Try that w/ a 9mm?
I guess this thread , at times is " down but not out " .
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Old 07-05-2016, 10:05 PM
kd5exp kd5exp is offline
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Are todays .38 +P loads closer to .357 loads? Are todays .38 +P loads closer to .357 loads? Are todays .38 +P loads closer to .357 loads? Are todays .38 +P loads closer to .357 loads? Are todays .38 +P loads closer to .357 loads?  
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Old threads never die they just keep going and going and going. I load the Keiths also and love it. Mine weighs at 170 gr but goes lighter some times, lead a little diff mix at times. I have a shelf full of different bullets and am going to have to brace it up soon. If you play with any of the bullets long enough you will find they will shoot good. I have to slow the light bullets down to get them to shoot good. I just went back and counted and there is 16 different bullets from 125 to 170 gr. mostly lead.
some as many as 500 per container. That's a lot of weight on this shelf. It's a steel shelf mounted every 18 inches so it should be good.
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Old 07-05-2016, 11:07 PM
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Are todays .38 +P loads closer to .357 loads? Are todays .38 +P loads closer to .357 loads? Are todays .38 +P loads closer to .357 loads? Are todays .38 +P loads closer to .357 loads? Are todays .38 +P loads closer to .357 loads?  
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