I've been searching for over an hour trying to get an answer, everything I read is different, NATO is = to +P, NATO is HOTTER than +P+, NATO is 40k psi, NATO is 36k psi.
Can someone give me a straight answer?

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Bersa thunder .45 compact

I can't really give you a straight answer but I'll give you what I know.

SAAMI maximum pressure for 9mm Luger is 35,000 PSI, and 9mm +P is 38,500 PSI. +P+ is 42,000 PSI, though I do not know if +P+ is actually an accepted specification for SAAMI.

By CIP standards, maximum pressure is 34,083 psi for 9mm. The CIP proof round is 45,687 psi.

This is what I would pay attention to in this situation. When we pull 9mm ammo on an Army range, it is WCC stamped 9mm NATO just like I have seen in those commercial packages. Referencing Army Technical Manual 43-0001-27, maximum pressure for 9mm NATO M882 is 36,025 psi, with an average pressure of 31,175 psi. The Army "High Pressure Test" or proof round is 50,000 psi.

Going by those numbers, if I wanted to make a generalization, I would say 9mm NATO is in the +P range, with the caveat that properly manufactured 9mm barrels will be proofed for an additional 10,000 psi or more.


Confused? I am. There are a lot of different specs out there and I have no idea what Winchester is actually loading in that 9mm "NATO" load they sell at Wal-Mart and other places. Since it is marked NATO, however, I would assume it is a little hotter than American Eagle and such. What are you shooting it in? If it's a Glock, no problem at all. Our Glock 19s shoot this stuff no problem, just be sure to clean the brass shavings out of the ejector. It is snappy ammunition. Are you firing this in an old or questionable pistol? If so you might look at some generic 9mm Luger loads.

I bought several boxes of the early WCC stamped 9mm 124 gr NATO
ammo at gun shows some years back. It was pretty warm, chronographing a little over 1200 fps in my Browning High Power. Don't
know if the current Wal-Mart stuff is the same. Wouldn't bet on it. If
memory serves mine was made in 88.

I would suspect it is the same spec as the Ranger which is loaded 45 fps hotter than the USA. I would say it is somewhere between standard and +P.

9mm Nato 124 gr. Ranger Full Metal Jacket
Product Symbol: RA9124N
Cartridge: 9mm Nato
Bullet Weight: 124
Muzzle Velocity: 1185
Ballistic Co-efficient: -
Barrel Length: 4.00"

9mm Luger 124 gr. USA Full Metal Jacket
Product Symbol: USA9MM
Cartridge: 9mm Luger
Bullet Weight: 124
Muzzle Velocity: 1140
Ballistic Co-efficient:
Barrel Length:

Im shooting it from a sigma. I was on the SAAMI web site and did a search for 9mm NATO. A article came up on unsafe firearm-ammunition combination's. On the list the had 9mm and among the rounds that shouldn't be fired from it was 9mm NATO. http://www.saami.org/specifications_...mbinations.pdf

I think I might try to return the rounds or sell them elsewhere.

Also the marking on the casings are different, they have a 10 and WCC on them. Now one time I got a WWB and notice it had 9mm luger casings and about 15 or so of these casings that have the 10 and WCC on them mixed in. I never thought anything of it but now I wonder if they had NATO rounds mixed in or just used the brass?

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Bersa thunder .45 compact

No manufacturer would mix rounds of different load pressures in the same box. They probably just used some extra brass from a 9mm NATO run for the white box bulk stuff.

Military ammo has the NATO symbol and the year of manufacture in the headstamp, i.e. LC 09 or WCC 10.

That SAAMI "do not use in.." list is interesting. At least the 9mm NATO in a 9mm Luger is understandable. Some of the others, such as "do not use .308 Winchester in a .25-06 Remington" make you scratch your head.

Winchester makes at least two different NATO 9mm rounds, and they have different ballistics. RA9124N is the lesser of the two, Q4318 is superior. I chronographed the RA9124N twice, once at average 1133 and the second time on a different day and differnt gun (same 4' barrel length) at 1135 fps. The Q4318 averaged 1190 from a 4" barrel.

I would put the Q4318 in the +P category of performance, but who knows what pressures are generated.

From what I've heard over time is the Nato round is very slightly hotter (just a tad) because of the Mil.Spec. case, which is slightly thicker. I also bought some at WM this last w-end. Best.

Since the head size is identical and the .308 case is shorter, it will fit and fire, with catastrophic results.

It will? Won't it go too far into the chamber for the firing pin to reach it?

According to Janes, one of the for most authorities of specifications for military hardware the NATO standard specification for 9mm ammunition calls for a 7.45 g full-jacketed bullet loaded to deliver a velocity of 396 m/s; mean pressure to be 2050 kg/cm2 , and the accuracy figure of Merit 76 mm at 50 m.

Converted to the English system that's a 115gr FMJ bullet at 1,299 fps at average pressure of 29,158 PSI with accuracy of 3" at 55 yards.

There is no mention of the test barrel length but its likely to be at lease SMG length rather than pistol length.

The US 9mm M882 version is listed as an 8.03 g ( 124 grain) bullet at 375 m/s (1,230 fps) +/- 15 m/s (49 fps).

Some people just have to try everything for themselves---I'll be over here behind the blast wall!!

Just how far do you think that big fat .308 bullet is going into the .25 hole drilled for the .25-06 bullet?

Some years back it was a common practice to rechamber the
7.7mm Japanese rifles to 30-06 to get a cheap hunting rifle.
It was reported in an American Rifleman magazine article that
some guy had a rechambered Japanese rifle that he had used
to kill a deer on a hunting trip, and complaining about the
brutal recoil of his 30-06 he had some smith check it out. It
was a 6.5mm rifle. The NRA staff test fired it a few more
times with no damage to the guns action.

That seems strange. I've shot a lot of it but never seen any 115gr NATO rounds, all 124. Have others seen 115 NATO for sale?

Never seen 115s. The stuff I have does not seem particularly hot, but it did not shoot very well in my P226. I do not buy a lot of factory loads, but when I do, I expect better accuracy than what I got.

I doubt Winchester would release this stuff for sale to the general public if it was dangerously over pressure. The box I have (nr. Q4318) does say "Pressure Levels Exceed Industry Standards," but curiously, the type is rather small. The back of the box says the ammo is 10% over pressure specification. Also warns to use only in modern firearms.

I doubt I will buy any more, but only because of the accuracy issue in my particular gun. I am going to give it a test in my 92F, just to see what it does in that gun.

I've been led to beleive that J.M. Browing built the P-35 (read Hi-Power) around a 124gr. round. Don't "our" 115gr. have a mv of 1150fps?

Browning died in 11/26/1926 and the P35 actually received its patents 3-mos after he died. I believe his son Val and F.N. were responsible for the final development of the pistol eventually introduced in 1935. I have never read what ammunition he and his successors used.

You're correct except that it was Dieudonne Savie of FN who actually finalized the design/production. Brownings design was more conceptual than anything effectual.

Pure speculation on my part, but I wonder if maybe the Ranger NATO ammo missed spec for military use somehow?

The following information should resolve all questions regarding the 9mm NATO M882 round.

The 9mm NATO (M882) velocity acceptance specs are based on a longer barrel (SMG) of 7.848" (20 cm). See the following:

MIL-C-70508 (9mm NATO ammunition specification, 7 Feb 1985) (NOTE: you can Google and find it free as a PDF file - It is there)
Velocity = 1263+/-49 fps average @ 52.5’ from muzzle. Chamber Pressure = 34,519 psi max. average (7.848" (20 cm) test barrel) Test temperature is 21 deg. C +/- 2 deg. C. There are also pressure and velocity test requirements at higher and lower temperatures. Average velocity and pressure are based upon 30 shots fired from a test barrel at each of three temperatures.

Winchester Lot Acceptance Test (LAT) Data: Velocity average over the last 5 lots = 1249 fps min. Chamber pressure 32,783 psi average max. (Note: The NATO chamber pressure procedure requires measurement at the cartridge case mouth using a piezoelectric test gauge. Results are not necessarily comparable to chamber pressure measurements obtained using other methods)

Having personally chronographed the "genuine" military 124 grain M882 from a 5" barrel Beretta M9, I found the average muzzle velocity to be about 1175 FPS. Winchester states it to be 1149 fps, but I don't know their test details. It could be slightly greater or less than this depending upon temperature, barrel length, barrel dimensions, and the specific ammo lot. It's probably safe to assume the true velocity of the M882 as being between 1150 and 1200 FPS in a 5" barrel.

At the time I was involved in this sort of thing over five years ago, Winchester was the sole contract manufacturer of the M882 round for the US military. I do not know if they still are. I saw the M882 loading line at Winchester's East Alton IL plant once, and was told that Winchester's civilian 124 grain FMJ 9mm ammunition was exactly the same. The only differences (other than the headstamp) were in the level of quality control and the packaging. Regarding weapon suitability, any pistol equivalent to the Beretta M9 (aka Model 92) should be able to survive on a steady diet of M882 ammo. We had M9s that had been fired in excess of 100K rounds in training with no repairs needed. Once, we magnafluxed a sample of high-mileage M9s, and found no slide, barrel, or frame cracking. In the early days of the M9 (late 1980s), there were several problems with both barrel and slide failures, which were later resolved. The M9 is indeed a tough gun.

I have also seen references to a 115 grain 9mm NATO load, but am unaware of any in recent US service. Maybe some other NATO countries use a 9mm load with a 115 grain bullet. I don't know.

Much M9 and M11 (SIG) training in the US Air Force is currently done with lead-free frangible ammunition, also manufactured by Winchester. This is designated Cartridge, 9mm Frangible, Mark 254 Mod 0, NSN: 1305014428717, DODIC AA16. This cartridge uses a 90 grain Sinterfire sintered copper bullet. This round can be used in the M9 and M11 pistols and also the MP5 SMG, but does not work well in the UZI.

Several years ago, the US Air Force started a program moving toward obtaining a new service pistol to replace the M9, and was considering, among other calibers (such as .45 ACP and .40 S&W), the 9X23mm Winchester at a MV of about 1430 FPS using the same 124grain FMJ bullet as the M882. That pistol program was terminated in 2007. There was a small quantity of this ammunition loaded by Winchester for preliminary evaluation, and I fired most of it. It was a winner in power and accuracy, but was a little stout in recoil compared to the M882.

This round is STANDARD MIL-SPEC pressure to be used in ANY standard weapon. NOT +P or +P+. The case is slightly thicker per Military reqirements. The original Browning was spec.'d for 124grs. NOT 115 or 147. This is the load that I carry in my old, non+P 1974 P35 since 124gr. HP's are hard to find. Ok, one shot stops w/FMJ is/are less than ideal. How 'bout 3 or 4 or 5 shots stops? P.S. My Glocks (2) get the Winchester Ranger 127gr. +P+ LEO only load. My .45's (3) get any HP available.

I have two cases of military surplus 9mm. Headstamp F C 1998 with the circled cross. I have shot up most of the third case, purchased from Sportsman's Guide and Natchez Shooters Supply around the turn of the last century. I do not feel any difference shooting them in my G17, 19 and 26, as compared to standard pressure premium self defense ammo. And the Remington Golden Saber 9mm+P 124s are not producing more felt recoil for me either.
Also a quick scan of my hand loading manuals does not show any recipes mark as +P? In 38SPL yes but not 9mm Parabellum/Luger/x19 and etc.

I would sure put the Winchester NATO Q4318 performance in the +P category, based on the actual velocities I posted back on page one of this thread, regardless of what the pressures are.

I guess I have to stop fireforming 38-55 and 375 Winchester cases from factory 30-30 rounds in my Marlin 38-55.

Noah

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Nicht mehr als 30 Zeichen

I have about 2 1/2 cases of this Federal NATO contract overrun ammo, myself, purchased about the same time. While it's been too long since I chronoed it for me to recall specific velocities, I know I was getting well over 1200 fps. from a Glock 17, and I seem to remember it being in the 1250 fps. range. I'll have to pull some out and shoot it over the screens. It is definitely hotter than a lot of +P, velocity-wise, but not especially impressive, in terms of recoil. I've not chronoed it from a Beretta 92, but I have one, so I will. Good, clean, accurate ammo.

Remington Golden Sabre 124 grain non plus P
Cheaper than dirt has it for 15-16 dollars a box currently.

WOW, bringing back an old thread here but, ...

I picked up some of this at a price I couldn't pass up. I read this whole thread and my head hurts

Is this safe in my M&P 9 pro 5"???? I think this thread said yes!!!!

Attached Images

9mm NATO.jpg (176.4 KB, 85 views)

the 124gr NATO round should be between a standard and a +P loading.
From all the data I have read it should be around 36,500psi maximum and around 1185 fps, with a oal of 1.165".

A lot depends on the case, powder and bullet seating, so there can be lots of variation in the fps that a round puts out.

1150 fps is a standard 9mm, 1090fps a target loading and a load of 1200fps or more is in the +P range with a 124gr FMJ, however pressures will vary with fast or slower powders used.

The 9mm can be "Dialed in" with powders and the oal of the round. One good reason to never "Guess" at what ammo you have.
Good shooting.

I like and use the NATO round a lot.

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I believe in the wadcutter.

We use and have used tens of thousands of rounds of this stuff in our M&P 9mms at our academy. The only caveat is that S&W wants you to change out recoil springs at 5000rd, which we do anyhow.

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Run Fast, Bite Hard!

How much was it? I just found by chance today at the WM I go to the most, about 15 boxes 1oo rounds winchester 9mm--the first ive seen since around November. By the way--prices on these rose slightly over $2 bucks. I wanted to get 3, but couldnt justify it. Anyway, with tax, it was $28 and change. Was $26 and change.

Ya, Federal 100's have gone up 3 ties the past 4 months to about $1.50 less than WWB.

My wife has been taking me estate sale shopping on 1/2 off last day. I won't tell you what I paid so you won't cry but it ended up feeling like I'm Gonna Party Like It's 1999!!!

No crying--just a little tear action will do.

Are you sure your name aint Commandant Crock?