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View Poll Results: How do you train at the range?
Only practice with what you carry for defense 5 4.95%
A mix of defensive ammo and target ammo 59 58.42%
Exclusively target ammo after you sight your gun for defensive ammo 14 13.86%
I reload and only use my own ammo 23 22.77%
Voters: 101. You may not vote on this poll

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  #1  
Old 07-11-2023, 10:52 PM
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Default Practice with what you carry?

I have had mixed feelings on this over the years. I prefer to practice exclusively with the ammo I carry for defense, but I have found if I want to shoot as much as I do this just isn't realistic. As of right now I'll shoot a little defensive ammo, usually first 6-12 shots cold to simulate real world situation where I have no warm up shots with my carry ammo then do more obscure drills with FMJ or LRN or whatever cheap ammo was on hand that day. In my mind, it seems best practice would be to use your defensive ammo at all times to truly familiarize yourself with it, and this has led me to look for reliable defensive ammo that is also affordable in bulk.

To shorten this down to a sentence, do you practice exclusively with defensive ammo or do you use a mix of defensive and target ammo?
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Old 07-11-2023, 11:14 PM
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I voted a mix but most of it is target ammo- I figure I shoot you about two boxes of SD ammo per year as I cycle thru my carry mags.
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Old 07-11-2023, 11:22 PM
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As long as you're getting the same accuracy, recoil, and point of impact as carry ammo, practice with cheaper stuff and shoot all you can.
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Old 07-11-2023, 11:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BabaBlueJay View Post
.....

To shorten this down to a sentence, do you practice exclusively with defensive ammo or do you use a mix of defensive and target ammo?
I can shorten it down to just one WORD, NO!
You see people recommend this all the time but they never make a cogent reason for it, just excuses!

Do you really believe that you will know the difference in a defensive shooting situation? I can guarantee that you will not even hear the report or feel the recoil in an actual defensive situation. It is unlikely you will even know how many rounds you have fired!

There is absolutely no point in shooting expensive defensive ammunition for practice of any type. An argument could be made for using the same bullet weight as your defensive ammunition though.

The reason is that for any practical purpose you will not be able to tell the difference in either muzzle blast or volume or recoil. At distances where self defense use of a firearm is justifiable there will be no significant difference in point of impact between your defense ammunition and the most generic "range ammo" or preferably the cheapest alternate your own hand-loads. The truth is most people will not even see their gun's sights no matter how much they believe they will, so precise relationship between POA and POI means little most of the time. The majority of defensive shootings occur at only "across a telephone booth" distances.

So, using 124 gr. 9mm as an example, just practice with the less expensive ammunition and carry whatever you feel best serves your needs for defensive ammunition in your gun. Shoot enough of the expensive stuff to satisfy yourself that it is dependable in your gun and leave it at that. Save your money so you can shoot more.
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Old 07-12-2023, 01:00 AM
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I answered that I reload, but I have the rounds I load for practice, which gets done on one of the progressive presses that are more or less permanently setup for practice loads, and spend some extra time for the carry rounds on a turret press with the auto charger.

Once a week I will go through what I have been carrying to rotate the carry inventory, but the practice rounds are what is used most of the time.

On the topic of are there any benefits to using the carry rounds for practice, based off of my experiences since the Covid shutdown in 2020, I would say it doesn't matter that much.

When everything was shutdown in 2020 I pulled out the old pellet gun and setup my home range for the first time in 20ish years. Being trapped at home with nothing else to do, I was putting at least a hundred pellets down range every day, which has since dropped of to 2 or 3 times a week now. This also kind of sucked me into airguns as another way to spend money

The repetition in lining up the sights and pulling a trigger, even though the majority of it is done with airguns that effectively have no recoil, has me shooting the firearms more consistently than I have in a long time, even with the hotter loads that move my hands around when they go off.

So getting back to the OP's question, I would say use the cheap stuff if it means you can get more practice in

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Old 07-12-2023, 01:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Valmet View Post
I voted a mix but most of it is target ammo- I figure I shoot you about two boxes of SD ammo per year as I cycle thru my carry mags.
Same here. I voted mix
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Old 07-12-2023, 01:33 AM
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At times I use only my own ammo. Sometimes I load ammo which h replicas carry ammo and practice with/carry it. The replies a ammo I load not only duplicates the felt recoil but the feel of the recoil too.

If you don't reload my suggestion would be to practice with similar range ammo to you carry ammo and at the end of the practice shoot a cylinder/magazine of your carry ammo to leave that mussel memory being your last shots. Of course this is just my opinion...
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Old 07-12-2023, 01:55 AM
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Good SD ammo is EXPENSIVE. Too expensive for practice.
Once you determine what SD ammo to use for a particular gun, reload or find a factory loading that has comparable recoil and POI and practice with that.
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Old 07-12-2023, 06:14 AM
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I voted mix, but I agree with ALK8944 on your physical reaction in a shooting situation. When I was OTJ we qualified twice a year. The longer day fire course was done with range magazines and low cost practice ammo. The night fire was with issued mags and duty ammo. That way you had fresh ammo and tested your mags at least twice a year.

Long since retired and almost exclusively carrying a J frame I'll fire a cylinder full of carry ammo maybe every couple of months. Other than that I shoot my favorite 148 gr. wadcutter load regularly. Which BTW is rather expensive now a days. Way more than 132gr. white box FMJ.
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Old 07-12-2023, 09:10 AM
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If I decide to try a different brand or weight of carry ammo I shoot 100 rounds of it through any pistol I will carry with it before I consider it reliable. Maybe as few as 50 rounds in a particularly reliable handgun that has gone thousands of rounds without a failure with any type of ammo. After that, once or maybe twice a year I shoot the loaded magazines to refresh the carry ammo and test the magazine it is in. The rest is target ammo.

I do try to avoid weak ammo like Winchester white box though since I carry +P 9mm. It feels a little different. NATO spec and Speer Lawman is loaded a bit stronger, feels more like the ammo I carry and doesn't cost more so I typically use it for target ammo. But if I see a great deal on some other brand I will sometimes buy it, not that I have seen a lot of great deals in the past few years.

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Old 07-12-2023, 09:32 AM
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I use a mix ... but usually begin and end a practice session with the ammo I carry .

Practice with your non-carry ammo beats not practicing with anything Seven Ways To Sunday .

I'm like you ... I cant afford to shoot all the factory ammo I want ...
I realized in 1967 I was going to have to reload to shoot anywhere near as much as I like to shoot ... So casting bullets , reloading and shooting became my hobbies and ... it's still fun !
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Old 07-12-2023, 10:24 AM
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I always shoot the same load in my center fire guns. The majority of my practice is with a .22 rim fire. Larry
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Old 07-12-2023, 11:16 AM
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Been shooting ~ box/week of my lead boolit, powder-coated reloads through my Glock 42. It gets carried with Winchester factory RNFP. My reloads have the same profile and dimensions.

The barrel gets brushed after every practice session.
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Old 07-12-2023, 11:28 AM
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About once a year we use up our duty ammo to get new stuff. I have also used self defense type ammo in what I carry off duty. Shoot what you are betting your life on to see what happens before the POOP hits the fan and you won't be surprised.

Just sayin
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Old 07-12-2023, 11:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ArchAngelCD View Post
At times I use only my own ammo. Sometimes I load ammo which h replicas carry ammo and practice with/carry it. The replies a ammo I load not only duplicates the felt recoil but the feel of the recoil too.

If you don't reload my suggestion would be to practice with similar range ammo to you carry ammo and at the end of the practice shoot a cylinder/magazine of your carry ammo to leave that mussel memory being your last shots. Of course this is just my opinion...
I have a single stage press but I don't reload a lot yet still taking my time doing things exactly right until I learn to go faster safely. I supplement this with Armscor which is cheap and what my LGS stocks for FMJ.
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Old 07-12-2023, 11:38 AM
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I voted mix.

#1 find a SD ammo that works 100% and that you trust.

#2 have a light practice load with the same POI to improve your skills.

If you have lots of $$$$
#2 is not needed.
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Old 07-12-2023, 11:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alk8944 View Post
There is absolutely no point in shooting expensive defensive ammunition for practice of any type. An argument could be made for using the same bullet weight as your defensive ammunition though.
I completely disagree. I think that anyone that doesn't shoot their carry ammo at least once is a fool. You may not notice the difference when you are in a life and death situation but, your weapon might. You don't know how it will react unless you shoot it at least once. But, to say that it is a waste of money to do it when you train on a regular basis is just wrong. You lose nothing but, a couple of bucks more a box.

Also, it doesn't hurt that you get a feel for it in what you are carrying. If your main reasoning is because you don't want to waste the money on training with carry ammo then, um well, I can't help you. Maybe you need to get a second job to pay for training with what you carry. I see absolutely no downside to training with carry ammo and training ammo whether you are a LEO or a civilian.

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Old 07-12-2023, 12:30 PM
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Part of the reason I've gone away from carrying 'boutique' loadings. The higher cost and lack of consistent availability. These are three great choices that don't suffer from either .....


Just a moment...

Winchester USA Ammo 9mm Luger 115 Grain Jacketed Hollow Point Box of

Just a moment...

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Old 07-12-2023, 01:01 PM
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Do you really need to practice with what you carry. I would say no. Why you ask? Well in a shooting situation you probably won't hear the gun go off or really feel it go off. Just practice hitting center mass with whatever gun and whatever ammo you are using. What I have in the nightstand is not what I carry. I probably have about 20 different handguns that I own. I would say that I can hit the 10ring with all of them in slow fire. In rapid fire I will keep all in the torso at a defensive range.
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Old 07-12-2023, 01:14 PM
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My CC and SD pieces are on a strict ball diet. That's what I practice with.
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Old 07-12-2023, 01:36 PM
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My EDC is a .357, and the ammo I load it with is Winchester 145 gr. Silvertips. It shoots exactly to the point of aim at ten yards. I have 158 gr. reloads that also shoot to the point of aim at ten yards. The recoil is practically identical to the Winchester ammo, and those are what I practice with.

But for fun, sometimes I'll plink with .38 wadcutters.
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Old 07-12-2023, 01:36 PM
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There is so much of the boutique defense ammo out there and at ridiculous cost with little actual known performance in the Human torso that I carry ball ammo. That and the fact that I shoot 3-5 days a week, I know where My gun shoots at ranges from 3 to 100 yards. At 77, I doubt I will ever be in a gunfight( especially up here), or need to draw My firearm. But!!!
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Old 07-12-2023, 02:19 PM
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Realistically, there is no magic bullet. There are plenty of examples where an individual soaked up several solid center mass hits with no apparent effect until they fell dead minutes later.

Where you shoot them still has more to do with outcome than what you shoot them with...mostly.
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Old 07-12-2023, 02:25 PM
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I voted for mix but it is nearly all target ammo - like 99.85%. I shoot my SD ammo once per year.
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Old 07-12-2023, 02:38 PM
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Another vote for mix, but I also use reloads for practice.

Yes, I sight my EDC (irons and red dot) for the defensive rounds.
I do not adjust the sights for target or reloads.
But I also try to purchase and reload to POI for my defensive rounds.

Reloads let me experiment with variables.
If I find a recipe that out-performs my current EDC ammo, then I look for a match in the commercial market.
Only when I find a matching commercial offering do I adjust the sights again.
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Old 07-12-2023, 02:51 PM
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No, I don't practice with my carry ammo.

If we're talking about a handgun for self-defense purposes, point-of-aim and point-of-impact differences are negligible.

Only reason to shoot carry ammo is to confirm they function in your gun, and if you're concerned that the ammo you have had is now 'so old it may not function'... which my guess would be, a time period greater than a couple decades. Maybe it's less if you bang and shake your carry piece a whole, whole lot, but even then, you're talking about swapping out a couple magazines' worth. And I don't consider occasionally shooting off your mags and reloading them with fresh, as practice.

The current climate has changed my patterns, but I would frequently shoot several hundred rounds at the range, getting and staying comfortably familiar with my handguns. I'm not doing that with Gold Dots, I do that with ball ammo. Cheap ball ammo. My only requirement with that was that it be consistent, and inexpensive.
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Old 07-12-2023, 02:53 PM
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Practice is the key word, not the ammo.

Yes absolutely practice with your carry ammo. Sight your gun in with the carry ammo. Ensure your EDC works well with that ammo.

But most of us can't afford to blow through hundreds of dollars buying expensive defense ammo. Get some FMJ that shoots somewhat similar to your carry ammo and blast away for 1/2 the price.
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Old 07-12-2023, 05:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BabaBlueJay View Post
I prefer to practice exclusively with the ammo I carry for defense ...

... or do you use a mix of defensive and target ammo?
When I was a cop I practiced with what I carry. Being a reloader that was possible. 40 years ago Speer / CCI had their popular 45 ACP 200 grain HP "the flying ashtray" as a component so you can duplicate the factory load. Hornady does the same today having their XTP bullets available for reloading.
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Old 07-12-2023, 05:16 PM
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I shoot about 4-5 times a month and usually 200-300 rounds each trip. Some times more. My SD round of choice is very difficult to find, so NO, I don't shoot what I carry that often. On some of my trips to the range, my EDC doesn't even clear leather.

When I do shoot my EDC, which is about 100 rounds per month, it is mostly my plinking load but at least one mag will be from a batch of very warm loads that approximate the performance of my SD rounds.
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Old 07-12-2023, 05:18 PM
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On the Police Department we shoot FMJ for practice and our carry ammo JHP is shot annually. We shot six times a year. Some officers will shoot more often and others will be on the Pistol Team.

But in LE back in the 1970s officers would practice with 38 Special wadcutters and then carry 357 Magnum with poor results.
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Old 07-12-2023, 05:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AJ View Post
Do you really need to practice with what you carry. I would say no. Why you ask? Well in a shooting situation you probably won't hear the gun go off or really feel it go off ...
Have you ever fired a 357 Magnum (with Magnum loads) in a kitchen? Or a 45 ACP in a suspect's bedroom?

In a shooting situation you do not have ear protection.
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Old 07-12-2023, 06:07 PM
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We did not use any .357 Magnums. Just .45 ACP and 9 MM. Two tours in SEA, 24 years in the Corps and was around for the first Desert Storm. Have heard a few guns go bang with and without hearing protection.
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Old 07-12-2023, 06:16 PM
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Any ammo in our carry firearms will hit the target in the four positions that we would shoot in smallbore competition.
Standing
Sitting
Kneeling
Prone

But, think of a pro baseball short stop flying horizontally to catch a line drive. Can you hit the target in that orientation or any that may be needed?

We load and carry that ammo.
The last thing I do after my range chores, is a fast run of a mag or cylinder thru my carry gun at about 10 yards.
Markham Park does not allow for rapid fire.
Sad but true.
But less accidents since the early years.
Plus the wall between the public and Police range is much taller, after a Cop's ricochet left some lead in my neck.
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Old 07-12-2023, 07:12 PM
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I completely disagree. I think that anyone that doesn't shoot their carry ammo at least once is a fool. You may not notice the difference when you are in a life and death situation but, your weapon might. You don't know how it will react unless you shoot it at least once. But, to say that it is a waste of money to do it when you train on a regular basis is just wrong. You lose nothing but, a couple of bucks more a box.

Also, it doesn't hurt that you get a feel for it in what you are carrying. If your main reasoning is because you don't want to waste the money on training with carry ammo then, um well, I can't help you. Maybe you need to get a second job to pay for training with what you carry. I see absolutely no downside to training with carry ammo and training ammo whether you are a LEO or a civilian.
This is why I carry an easy to find, affordable load in my 380. Reliability is #1. If the gun won't work.........
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Old 07-12-2023, 07:45 PM
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The last thing I do after my range chores, is a fast run of a mag or cylinder thru my carry gun at about 10 yards.
Markham Park does not allow for rapid fire.
Sad but true.

Were you going there when Holden Kriss was there? He came up to Indian River County Shooting range from Markham Park. We have a "no more than one round every three seconds" rule from him. Guess he brought it with him.
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Old 07-12-2023, 08:01 PM
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I only practice with duty ammo for my EDC, but my duty ammo is Winchester RED45 FMJ FP, not more expensive ammo.
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Old 07-12-2023, 08:09 PM
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I completely disagree. I think that anyone that doesn't shoot their carry ammo at least once is a fool. You may not notice the difference when you are in a life and death situation but, your weapon might. You don't know how it will react unless you shoot it at least once. But, to say that it is a waste of money to do it when you train on a regular basis is just wrong. You lose nothing but, a couple of bucks more a box.

Also, it doesn't hurt that you get a feel for it in what you are carrying. If your main reasoning is because you don't want to waste the money on training with carry ammo then, um well, I can't help you. Maybe you need to get a second job to pay for training with what you carry. I see absolutely no downside to training with carry ammo and training ammo whether you are a LEO or a civilian.
He didn’t say don’t shoot your carry ammo. He said don’t practice with it. He also said shoot carry ammo till you’re satisfied with poi and reliability. I tend to agree with him.
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Old 07-12-2023, 08:21 PM
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Have you ever fired a 357 Magnum (with Magnum loads) in a kitchen? Or a 45 ACP in a suspect's bedroom?

In a shooting situation you do not have ear protection.
But you DO have the benefits of adrenaline on your side...
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Old 07-12-2023, 10:27 PM
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Only reason to shoot carry ammo is to confirm they function in your gun, and if you're concerned that the ammo you have had is now 'so old it may not function'... which my guess would be, a time period greater than a couple decades.
I don't shoot my carry ammo once or twice a year because I am worried about it being too old to function. I do it to check the gun for problems with carry ammo.

My carry gun is a P365. When you push the limits on how small and light a 9mm can be it doesn't take much to make them unreliable. Recoil springs need to be changed more often, they wear more, magazines need stronger springs that may fatigue , etc. I want to check the gun/carry ammo combination on a regular basis.

My P365 had to go back to the factory because it started leaving empty casings in the chamber. This started after a few hundred rounds. The P365 has been reliable for the two years since then but while I trust it enough to carry it I don't trust it as much as I do my larger M&P Compact.

The Kahr PM9 I once had was much worse than the P365 about developing failures. The manual said it might have malfunctions during the first couple of hundred rounds but mine was 100% reliable for the first several hundred rounds. Then it started dropping mags, particularly with higher power ammo. Kahr sent me a metal mag catch to replace the plastic one and it quit dropping mags but a few hundred rounds later started getting stovepipes. Replacing the recoil spring seemed to fix that but I sold the gun before it found a new way to fail.

If I carried my M&P Compact, a Glock 19 or similar size gun I wouldn't check so often. But I end up always leaving guns that large at home.

I bought a half case of Gold Dot +P pre-Covid and am going to keep using it until I run out which may take several years. But I may buy some standard pressure carry ammo for the P365 and use the +P in my M&P Compact.

Last edited by Dave Lively; 07-12-2023 at 10:39 PM.
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Old 07-13-2023, 12:09 AM
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My EDC is a .357, and the ammo I load it with is Winchester 145 gr. Silvertips. It shoots exactly to the point of aim at ten yards. I have 158 gr. reloads that also shoot to the point of aim at ten yards. The recoil is practically identical to the Winchester ammo, and those are what I practice with.

But for fun, sometimes I'll plink with .38 wadcutters.
Funny you mention silvertip 357 because I just got a box and may go to that for my carry ammo in my 686 and shoot Armscor 🌽 158 grain FMJ for practice
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Old 07-13-2023, 01:54 AM
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I'm a huge fan of the Winchester 145gr Silvertip .357 Magnum ammo. It is extremely accurate from my M640 and is the only ammo I will carry in that revolver.

Last time I bought it was when Win did a run and bought 2 boxes @$50 each for 50 rounds. I can't guess how much it is now. I have about 6 boxes left so I won't be using it for regular practice.
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Old 07-13-2023, 01:18 PM
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I'm a huge fan of the Winchester 145gr Silvertip .357 Magnum ammo. It is extremely accurate from my M640 and is the only ammo I will carry in that revolver.

Last time I bought it was when Win did a run and bought 2 boxes @$50 each for 50 rounds. I can't guess how much it is now. I have about 6 boxes left so I won't be using it for regular practice.
Do you think 158 grain FMJ would be an ok pairing for practice? I can't seem to find 145 grain LRN or FMJ. I suppose I could start getting 145 grain bullets and reload that to be comparable.
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Old 07-14-2023, 01:06 AM
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Do you think 158 grain FMJ would be an ok pairing for practice? I can't seem to find 145 grain LRN or FMJ. I suppose I could start getting 145 grain bullets and reload that to be comparable.
I think a 140gr bullet might be a better choice. Fiocchi sells a 142gr magnum range ammo in boxes of 50.
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Old 07-14-2023, 12:45 PM
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I think because 357 magnum is so expensive the only way to do it is a mix. If I carried 22 LR it would be more reasonable at 500 rounds for under 100$ of quality Federal Punch.
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Old 07-14-2023, 01:11 PM
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I think because 357 magnum is so expensive the only way to do it is a mix. If I carried 22 LR it would be more reasonable at 500 rounds for under 100$ of quality Federal Punch.
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Old 07-14-2023, 01:34 PM
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Sorries. I consider 'defensive ammo' to be a marketing ploy.

That said, I carry and practice with Federal Eagle 147 gr FMJ in my 9 mms. AE9FP. Accurate, pleasant to shoot. Reasonably priced. But even Federal calls it a target load.

I carry and practice with Sig V-Crown Elite 200 gr in my C3 .45. Sig calls it a personal defense round.

So, yes, I practice with what I carry, but I don't think I fit OP's mold, since I carry a so-called target round.
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Old 07-14-2023, 03:08 PM
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"Defensive Ammo" IIRC on this forum there was a post about someones CCW instructor who said " Before you carry that gun with that ammo you better shoot over 2500 rounds before you consider it reliable."
at 2 bucks a round I don't think so! I reload and try to match what I carry.
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Old 07-14-2023, 03:15 PM
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"Defensive Ammo" IIRC on this forum there was a post about someone's CCW instructor who said " Before you carry that gun with that ammo you better shoot over 2500 rounds before you consider it reliable."
at 2 bucks a round I don't think so! I reload and try to match what I carry.
2500 rounds is a crazy number. When I was stationed an Orange County, CA. we had 23 law enforcement agencies using our ranges. The local PD's would let an officer carry his new gun on the street after 250 trouble free rounds when through it. If it malfunctioned it back to square one.......
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Old 07-15-2023, 01:40 PM
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My own loads 100% of the time except .380 which gets Hornady CD.
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Old 07-15-2023, 08:07 PM
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I not only reload, but I cast my own bullets as well.
In my world, the cost differential between an ideal target load and a business class offering is just a pennies worth of powder.
For all intents and purposes, there's no financial hurdles in the way of the train as you fight mantra
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