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08-25-2010, 11:55 PM
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What happened? .357 Rupture
I had some .357 158 gr that were ostensibly "new", purchased from a gun show in 1990-ish. I took out a few to shoot (getting to the bottom of the barrel) and shot 46. 23 looked like this, scarring the cylinder of my Performance Center 627. Needless to say, I'm not a happy camper.
Theory 1: The brass is old and brittle.
Theory 2: They were reloads, and, hot. (No primer problems, though.)
Theory 3: A combination of theory 1 and 2.
I used a plug gauge to check the cylinders, all were fine.
Any other theories? I have hundreds of these, and, now I'm afraid to shoot any of them in any of my firearms. Maybe I should go find an old Ruger????
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08-26-2010, 12:14 AM
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I would vote for brittle brass
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08-26-2010, 12:32 AM
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Are they Remington brand? I have had a boatload of factory Remington ammo do that in several calibers, and a few Federal redbox 30/06's too. I seriously doubt that your chambers are scarred. It would take quite a few to do that, and they would all have to split so that the escaping gas hit the chamber wall in the same place everytime. Peak pressure and heat are forwards of the case mouth a bit too.
Last edited by Gun 4 Fun; 08-26-2010 at 12:35 AM.
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08-26-2010, 12:48 AM
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It is R-P brass, all of it. The primers were sealed, too. None of the primers (including in those that didn't split) show any pressure signs.
I tried to clean out the cylinders, even put some JB on a patch on a wire brush and chucked it. The marks are definitely there and they seem to want to stay. If you have an idea on how to clean it out, I'll give it a whirl.
I generally don't load a full cylinder, particular on this 8x weapon. I used a few cylinders the most.
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08-26-2010, 01:12 AM
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Try attaching some 0000 steel wool to a rod and polish the chambers with a dremel tool. Go slow and check often. You don't need ultra high speed, or much pressure usually either. A little Flitz will usually do the trick too.
I figured it was R-P brass as soon as I saw the thread. I have had R-P brass bought new that was not heat treated properly before leaving the factory. It was .300 Weatherby brass, and I couldn't even use starting loads in it without the primer pockets expanding and dropping the primers out upon opening the bolt. the brass would also flow into the ejector hole makinh turning the bolt to open the action hard, not to mention that doing so resulted in tiny brass shavings getting into the inside of the bolt body which required disassembly to remedy.
BTW- Welcome to the forum.
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08-26-2010, 01:16 AM
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I usually only see this happen with 30 or 40 year old rifle brass splitting at the neck. The obvious answer is brittle brass. I'm still loading 1980's vintage Remington .38 and .357 cases without splitting of the sides of the cases. It doesn't take a hot load to crack old brittle brass.
You may want to pull and salvage the bullets from the rest of these loads. The brass is not worth saving.
Bruce
Gun 4 Fun Good to see you posting.
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08-26-2010, 01:29 AM
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Thanks Bruce. I appreciate it.
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08-26-2010, 03:26 AM
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Hydrogen Embrittlement?
Was that brass really shiny?
Reloaders have been cautioned for years against using ammonia based cleaners to shine up brass because of hydrogen embrittlement, and if you look up the term you'll see brass with stress fractures pretty much like what you've got.
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08-26-2010, 05:11 AM
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My vote would be poorly reloaded ammo.
Did the ammo come in commercial Remington boxes?
What type of bullets are loaded? Can you post a clear pic of a few rounds from the batch of ammo? That would help determine if it's reloads or factory loaded ammo.
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08-26-2010, 05:14 PM
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I would contact Remington, send them pictures and ask for replacement.
I would not shoot ANY more of them.
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08-26-2010, 05:57 PM
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I would have stopped shooting them after the first cyllinder!
That sucks!
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08-26-2010, 06:19 PM
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On the case laying down on the left, I think I see a faint ring near the base that indicates contact with reloading tooling. I think the resizing process leaves this mark. Check the other cartridges to see if you can find any marks that would indicate reloading.
I see this mark on all of my reloaded cases, but never on new factory ammo.
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08-26-2010, 06:44 PM
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Rarely will reloaded ammo burst along the sides like that unless it's a catstrophic failure, and then there isn't enough left to tell anything from. If they were overloaded rounds, the primer would have let go long before the sides would have split with normal and decent brass.
The op said the primers appear fine, so I would lean towards some type of brass weakening, whether from the factory itself or an aftermarket loading supplier.
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08-26-2010, 08:42 PM
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The only first time fired brass I've seen split that far down into the head were R-P 45 Auto Rim rounds that were made in the '60s. They were about 20 years old when I shot them.
Just for the heck of it, I ran some of the cases that did not split through a carbide sizing die. Most of them split at the neck, making me think that the brass was extremely brittle. With that brass, I wasn't really surprised, because the R-P AR cases often split on the second or third reloading.
Brass hardens with age; you will often see neck/shoulder splits in old (30+ years) military brass, even if it has been properly annealed. But commercial brass should be good for at least 20+ years.
Perhaps that brass was marginal when it left the factory and time put it over the line.
Speculation, of course. Your guess is probably better than mine.
Charles
Last edited by Texas1941; 08-26-2010 at 08:45 PM.
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08-26-2010, 09:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NE450No2
I would contact Remington, send them pictures and ask for replacement.
I would not shoot ANY more of them.
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He would have to send some of them to Remington on his own nickel for them to examine. Only after all of that will he find out if they will do anything for him even if they turn out to be factory loaded, which seems questionable.
I wrote them a letter last year complaining about the poor quality of some of their bulk pack .22's. The above is the company line I was fed in a form letter. The form letter was originally composed for somebody complaining about some centerfire cartridge (which I can't recall now) and all they did was change the address heading, so that shows how much it meant to them.
The moral of that story for me was not to buy any more Remington ammunition. Sorry 'bout that.
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08-26-2010, 09:56 PM
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So, the plot, but not the brass, thickens.
I went to take one apart with my impact puller. It took me a good ten minutes. Here's the result of that one.
I think we know why the brass split.
It varies. They are all hard to get out, not all this hard. When I use an impact puller to get them out, the hollow point deforms because I have to hit it so hard/repeatedly.
Here's a look from the top - they are clean inside. Some seem to have a little discoloration at the base, others don't. No tool marks of any kind, though, other than where the bullet was seated.
For the poster who would have stopped - I would have if I had known. I was in a darkened shooting booth, and, just dropped the brass into my bucket. I didn't know about it until I looked at the brass.
I'm not going to shoot any more (!), and, I'm not going to tear them apart. I think they were reloads with good case prep - or were "new" from a reloading house. Not the Remington factory. The reason I believe this is they have red primer sealer on them, and, I don't think I've ever seen that on Remingtons.
BTW, they were loaded with 7.1 gr of a flat circle powder.
Bob
Last edited by rodell; 08-26-2010 at 11:26 PM.
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08-26-2010, 10:33 PM
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I have a box of factory Rem .357 mag JHP that have that red sealent on them, and 3 out of 5 cartridges fired in 4 different guns the primers pierced upon firing. I tried them in that many different guns to make sure it wasn't just a bad firing pin or pin bushing in one. A while back I called them, and yea, I have to send them back on my dime for them to examine. I haven't yet, but I may now. There really is no excuse for this kind of thing these days.
Last edited by Gun 4 Fun; 08-26-2010 at 10:42 PM.
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08-26-2010, 11:21 PM
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Those cracks in the thicker web part of the case are somewhat unusual. And worrisome.
Cartridge cases are manufactured on high-speed automated machinery and case anneals are likewise done on automated production lines. It's likely that those cases somehow missed an anneal operation or were otherwise improperly heat treated.
This reminds me of early reports of 5.56 NATO service ammo case failures in the early months of the Afghanistan campaign in 2002. Canadian and American forces incidents were reported. Case cracking was traced to selected ammo lots and a single case manufacturer. So, it is not entirely unheard of.
Last week I got around to firing a couple boxes of 7mm Mauser I reloaded back in the 1970s. Cases were reformed from .30-06 and 7.92 Mauser cases. On firing, almost 100% case mouths cracked down to the shoulder. I guess over 35 years of the seated bullets straining the case mouths was too much.
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08-26-2010, 11:34 PM
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Brass questions?
I'm no metalurgist but the cases appear to be new from the pulled bullet pictures. When these were bought, were they in original Remington boxes?
It is my understanding is that the brass is stressed upon forming and unless properly annealed will split, as it is no longer elastic. Ok metal guys, does the zinc in the brass also crystalize over time making the cases more brittle. I have found loaded rifle ammo with split necks or split necks after firing. Yet I have fired most old ammo without any problems at all including ammo I loaded 30 years ago.
Time for the scientists to weigh in on the forming and failure of brass.
Bruce
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08-26-2010, 11:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gun 4 Fun
Try attaching some 0000 steel wool to a rod and polish the chambers with a dremel tool. Go slow and check often. You don't need ultra high speed, or much pressure usually either. A little Flitz will usually do the trick too.
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I worked on the cylinder tonight. It is pitted, like a gas cut (which is what it is). I tried everything in my arsenal, including bronze wool, 0000 steel wool, Flitz, jeweler's rouge and a dremel polishing tip, etc. They shine, but, the pits are still there.
I may order a chamber hone from Brownells, or, see if S&W will take just the cylinder and do it for me. If they would, it would save me a lot in shipping. If not, I'll just order the hone and oil.
When I bought these rounds, (1990-ish) they were "bulk" packaged, I can't remember how. I don't seem to remember the Remington colors.
I believe these "blew" due to a variety of factors, the most being that the crimp is way too tight and I'm guessing these were carefully prepared cases, but reloads. I've never had loads before that flattened the end of the kinetic puller to get one out.
I'm still irritated!
Last edited by rodell; 08-26-2010 at 11:51 PM.
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08-27-2010, 12:04 AM
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BTW, they were loaded with 7.1 gr of a flat circle powder.
That does sound like a medium range load like Unique, possibly not a factory load.
None of this is good news. It is amazing that such a small charge of powder flame cut the cylinder. Was there sealant around the bullet or just the primer?
The flame cutting of your cylinder, while annoying, is cosmetic and should not affect your gun, unless it causes sticky extraction.
Your gun, your call. I would just shoot the gun, lesson learned.
Bruce
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08-27-2010, 12:08 AM
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I'm not a degreed metallugist, but my engineering and technical subjects expertise has required me to study it.
Brass is work hardened by the repeated draw operations needed to form cartridge cases. Generally, annealing is performed after each cupping ("die stamping") and draw (deep cup extrusion) operation. The anneal "relaxes" the crystal structure and allows further draws up to near the elastic limit without cracking the brass.
True, brass (and other non-ferrous) alloys age because the copper and zinc crystals are held in a mechanical mixture or lattice work. It takes GENERATIONS for brass to age and weaken. What happens is atmospheric corrosion or contact with corrosive materials attacks the alloy, and induces microcracks in the crystal.
Ammonia for example, attacks the copper more than the zinc, leaving copper-starved regions in the surface of the alloy. This is more likely than hydrogen embrittlement, which DOES affect the brass if it is plated. During nickel plating, hydrogen molecules are trapped in the brass-to-plating interface and leaves weakened areas. This is the basis for the belief that plated cases are not as sturdy (cracks easier) as unplated cases. There are processes to relieve hydrogen embrittlement in plated objects (prolonged oven heating), and if done properly, there is no difference in case life between plated and unplated brass.
Cartridge brass made up to the early 1930s was harder and springier than those made after this period. You will frequently see cracked case necks in military rifle cartridges made in the first third of the 20th century. After this period, case neck annealing was standardized in US and european MIL-SPEC production of military small arms ammunition. The case colors seen on the neck and shoulders of military ammunition are intentionally left there as proof that the case neck anneal was done. In commercial ammunition, the case colors are polished off prior to loading and packaging. Cosmetics are important you know.
The final case mouth/shoulder anneal is done by passing a gas flame across the case. The body, web, and head of cases is intentionally left "springier" and left unheattreated after the last draw. Case heads need to be tougher than the case mouth.
Pistol and revolver cases are done differently from longer rifle cases. I believe their heat treatment is done in ovens and is a compromise between fully-hardened case heads and soft case mouths like in rifle cases. This places a premium on correct oven temperatures and times.
All of these operations are done on automated machinery, and it requires close human supervision to make sure the processes are correct.
You can probably see where the weak point is when bad brass is suspected.
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08-27-2010, 12:36 AM
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John,Thanks for your explanation. I think your post should be a sticky as questions about brass are important to all reloaders.
Now I know why the nickel case always split at the mouth.
I also have some .38 cases that are really old which just keep going and going.
Good information worth having available for all future reloaders.
Bruce
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08-27-2010, 04:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rodell
I worked on the cylinder tonight. It is pitted, like a gas cut (which is what it is). I tried everything in my arsenal, including bronze wool, 0000 steel wool, Flitz, jeweler's rouge and a dremel polishing tip, etc. They shine, but, the pits are still there.
I believe these "blew" due to a variety of factors, the most being that the crimp is way too tight....
I'm still irritated!
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There isn't enough crimp in the world to have made those cases blow. You just bought junk ammo and it damaged your gun. Lesson learned.
To repeat what several other experienced people have said, if you keep messing with the cylinder trying to make it "perfect again," you're likely to wind up with egg-shaped chambers and sticky extraction.
Then you'll really be irritated!
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08-27-2010, 05:19 AM
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Good morning
I would be contacting the seller also.. he should know what he is selling can be a potential disaster.
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08-27-2010, 08:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruce Lee M
BTW, they were loaded with 7.1 gr of a flat circle powder.
That does sound like a medium range load like Unique, possibly not a factory load.
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I thought the same thing when I saw the powder, but, it was much more potent than that. I didn't chrono them, but, they felt pretty "full".
I had to whack my impact puller on concrete for ten minutes on the first one I tried - that was the one where the core separated from the bullet. I've never had that happen before. The other half dozen I tried were pretty difficult to get out, too, but the core didn't separate. I've never had anything else come apart so hard. I'm going to put the crimp under the scope at work and see if there's anything there of note. At this point, this is just for my forensic interest.
Egg shaped cylinders would be bad! I certainly haven't caused that - yet. I realize the pits are cosmetic, although difficult to clean. They just bug me as I'm pretty particular, and, this "was" a mint piece. I'll see how I feel about it in a month!
Bob
Last edited by rodell; 08-27-2010 at 08:37 AM.
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08-27-2010, 09:45 AM
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That Remington bullet design is designed to open easily. The jacket isn't particularly thick and there isn't a lot of it compared to other designs. They don't call it the "short jacket hollowpoint" for nothing! The jacket frequently separates from the lead core on impact with the target when fired. The jacket and core aren't bonded together, the jacket just wraps around the core. I had some of the old design Speer 3/4 jacket .44 bullets come apart when using an impact puller. It can happen with some bullet designs, the more fragile the bullet, the more likely.
The crimp doesn't look excessive to me.
I have had Remington handgun brass split in a similar manner on first firing, in .357 Mag, .41 Mag (old midrange lead bullet load!), .44 Special and .22 Rem Jet, usually factory-loaded ammo, not component brass, but never so far down towards the rim and through the web.
I am guessing it was loaded by other than Remington, judging by it's appearence. I have bought bulk new, unfired, primed brass made by both W-W and Federal that has red primer sealer, like that, but my experience with Remington brass has consistently been so bad (I started handloading about 1975) that I don't buy it unless it was the only choice at the time, like .22 Jet and .45 Auto Rim used to be.
That sure looks like a defective, brittle, bad bunch of brass, not R-P factory-loaded into cartridges, to me. I think the chance of defective heat treatment during manufacture is the most likely explanation. Be glad you don't have a lot more of it!
Last edited by BUFF; 08-27-2010 at 09:49 AM.
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08-27-2010, 08:30 PM
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Looks like brand new Remington brass.
Bullets are Remington 125 gr. SJHP, semi-jacketed hollow point.
You can crimp the heck out of that bullet and after a point there is no more grip on the bullet, just deformation. The crimp looks good to me and shows no signs of over-crimping.
I'd return a few rounds to Remington with any box pieces you might have and ask for an evaluation. If they agree it's their product, they will likely replace it with new production. The 125 SJHP is still being produced. It's a great SD round.
If it's not their product it was made by some reloader using new components, but the quality of that finished round looks really good.
Either way it's their brass and they are going to be interested in this. I suspect there is a weakness in the brass due to poor annealing or embrittlement as discussed above. Remington is in the best position to figure it out and if you discuss it with them they will respond appropriately.
The chamber marks are just more of life's speed bumps.
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08-27-2010, 10:40 PM
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puller
To salvage the bullets, try pushing them into the case first on a press.
That should break the seal and then you can put them into your
bullet puller. They should come out with a lot less force. If you do salvage the bullets I would suggest tumbling as well. The fact that the bullets are so tight would raise the pressure.
As OKFC05 said It's not the crimp. Almost sounds like the bullets were glued in place. Anything is possible with someone else's reloads.
Bruce
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08-28-2010, 10:58 PM
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Hhhmm....I just bought some p & r.
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08-30-2010, 02:03 AM
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I just disassembled all of these loads, and, the brass was definitely "new". I decapped them so I wouldn't be throwing away "loadable" brass, and, the primer pockets were sparkly clean and only one primer seating mark.
As I pulled them apart, I swear some were glued in. Lots more effort on the collet puller vs. the "average" one.
Oh, well, on to another adventure.
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08-30-2010, 07:54 PM
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Never, never, never, never, never, never, never, etc. buy reloads at a gun show. That is your problem.
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08-31-2010, 12:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SW357Addict
Never, never, never, never, never, never, never, etc. buy reloads at a gun show. That is your problem.
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Well, at the time they were "bulk new", or so they were represented. Now that I reload extensively, I would never buy anything without a pedigree!
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09-01-2010, 08:21 PM
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So, why didn't you send some back to Remington to see whether there might be a safety issue with the brass?
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10-22-2010, 11:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by moxie
So, why didn't you send some back to Remington to see whether there might be a safety issue with the brass?
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Mostly due to age. I couldn't place them exactly in time, so, it seems like it would tough for them to do anything about it.
I took the cylinder to Bolsa Gunsmithing in Westminster, CA while on a business trip. They polished it up; it looks like new. End of this adventure!
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