Hey All,

Not to beat a dead horse, but I'm wondering if there has been any further thought or evolution of thought on the question of which is the better option for the 380 defensive round -- FMJ or JHP -- and, of course, why you think so. Seems as if there have been a number of new tests conducted of the 380 round in the last year or so. I was curious if these new tests (or anything else for that matter) have changed anyone's opinion, anyone's rationale (if not their opinion), or both. In addition, S&W has the new BG380 on the market, so I'm sure that we have a number of new 380 owners on this forum, me included.

By the way, some of the new tests include an additional round of testing (August 2010) by "Ballistics by the Inch" and the "Completely Unscientific Ballistic Testing with the Ruger LCP .380ACP" done by Brian Orr. I would like to post links, but I'm not sure that I fully understand the forum rules about doing so.

I should mention that my wife carries the Speer Gold Dot JHP in her Kahr P380, while I carry the Speer Lawman TMJ, in part because I have tested only FMJ/TMJ ammo in my BG380. So, we are a "divided house" in this regard, and my opinion on the better choice is divided as well.

I like Winchester white box FMJ its a flat point, I think it will act like a full wadcutter wich is my favorite load it a 38 snub.

it will get good penitration to get to the vitals.

Pete

Hey Pete,

Is that the WinClean ammo? I was looking at the Winchester website the other day, and it looks as if their standard 380 FMJ ammo is roundnose. The WinClean has the truncated cone and an enclosed base.

Winchester Silvertip still the best carry round for the .380 IMHO. Try em', you'll see!

Many years ago a bunch of my LEO buddies that carried 380's carried what was called then a "Mixed Salad", ie alternating HP and Ball rounds.

Also, as some of the pistols back then would not reliably feed HP bullets, they would carry a HP in the barrel and ball in the magazine.

I have also seen some 380's that would not feed a HP if it was the last round or two in the magazine.

Those guys wouyold csarry 3 or 4 HP's "on top" with ball rounds as the last 2 or 3 rounds in the Mag.

I carry Federal American Eagle 95 grain FMJ in my Kel-Tec. I have chronographed them at 795 out of the KT, so they aren't exactly bombs but they do penetrate and function fine.

Just from what I have seen published over the years, it seems as though those nice big hollow points that are intended to promote rapid expansion also tend to clog on cloth. The end result is close to that of an FMJ, so I just stick with the FMJ for the positive functioning.

Google "brassfetcher" for some pics, etc.

I also read Brian Orr's test and have carried the Winchester 95 gr.PDX1 JHP in my LCP.I have fired over three boxes of this ammo with no problems.
I recently purchased a BG380 and have run 450 rounds of the Speer Lawman TMJ's through it with no issues.In Addition,I have rapid fired one box of the Winchester's through the BG with no problems.

__________________
JR

Goffman

No look at the Winchester no frills white box fmj its a flat point not the win clean.

Ammunition to Go has it for sale right now.
A matter of fact there is a thread here on the forum and Erch talks about this round.

Pete

reliability is more important to me than expecting a rather slow moving bullet fired from a short barrel to expand.
With that said, find a ammo your firearm feeds 100% of the time and use it.
When I carried a 380, I had a HP in the chamber and ball in the mags for that very reason.

My last .380, I gave it away to my son. It fed everything we put in it, but he keeps it loaded with some old Speer 88 grain loads that I had a few boxes of.

Attached Images

beretta84l.JPG (46.8 KB, 329 views)

Pete950....thats the ammo I use, excellent choice. Cant depend on expansion in the .380 and the flat nose FMJ gives better penetration.

Thanks for the responses, folks. I appreciate the rationale behind the flatnose FMJ rounds. However, if one were to choose a *roundnose* FMJ/TMJ 380 round, are there any brands out there that have a little more "ummph" than the others?

*roundnose* FMJ/TMJ don't have "ummph" that's why jhp's were invented. Most of the current makers jhp's feed reliably, just find one that feeds 100% and go with that one. My carry gun is an LCP and so far it has been 100% with several different brands, but I still think the Winchester Silvertip is hard to beat! Nuff said..........

Having followed ballistic tests on 380 FMJ for a couple of decades is why I don't feel too under gunned when I carry 38 S&W. For as long as they've been around the old Winchester Silvertips still seem to be the performance standard pocket pistol ctgs are judged by. Those would be my 1st choice if I was carrying a 380 with the WWB flat tips being second. 380 is what I carried for years and the main reason I no longer carry 380 is that I like a few other ctgs/firearm combos better. If I ever talk a friend out of his Sig I'll be back to 380 ;D

I have both a .380acp (Browning BDA) and a Makarov that I carry with a handload jhp chambered and ball in the mag. handloaded a bit on the 'hot' side.
one of my biggest concerns around here is 'bangers' in an auto.
that's the reason for ball ammo.

I don't trust the flat point to feed as well as the RN. I have
chronographed Federal, CCI and Remington RNs in my three
380s and found Federal to be a bit faster than the others.
However Remington penetrates better in pine. I think this is
because Remington bullets are jacketed while the other RNs
are just plated lead. Win. flat point runs about 50fps slower
than the three RN brands in my guns.

I have a Kahr P380 and I bought some Federal Hydra Shock for a carry round. No real reason, They just looked good. Here is some information on 380 ammo that might interest you. Don


terminal 380 acp

__________________
"Don't worry be happy"

Hi Pete950,
I recently bought some Winchester .380acp Flat Nose.
They seem to work fine in my new Bersa/Firestorm .380acp.

The American Eagle .380acp 95gr RN are very reliable and
accurate in my pistol as well.
586L-Frame

DLC’s Bersa Firestorm .380acp. with recently purchased ammo.


DLC’s Bersa Firestorm .380acp. with Bianchi Holster.


x

There was a test in the latest Gun Tests magazine of .380 ammunition. I just skimmed the article, but the consensus was that even though the hollowpoints expanded very well, the solids gave more penetration, and the hollowpoint ammo was not the best choice. I'll go back and see if I can glean anymore info from the article, and post it when I do.

Some say the JHP's are to prevent over penatration - to keep bullet from going all the way through and hitting an innocent. I personally wouldn't worry about a .380 FMJ doing that - so - if it were me - I'd go with the FMJ for that caliber.

__________________
For God and Country

Based on recent testing (I'll give a citation later if I find it), I'm no longer carrying Remington Express FMJ in my .380's. I now carry Fiocchi Extrema XTP's which are reported to penetrate and expand.

__________________
VIVERE MILITARE EST

I would have to load up with premium quality
hardball for penetration and reliability.
Shot placement is what matters.

I carry Corbon DPX.

__________________
Misty

Love to read the article. Please post it when you have a moment.

What was the result of the test that led you away from the Remingtons?

12 inches + penetration in ballistic gel plus expansion.

__________________
VIVERE MILITARE EST

The article in Gun Tests is copyrighted material, but here's a recap:

The test was done shooting into plastic jugs filled with water at 10 feet.

Grade A Fiocchi 95 gr FMJ, with 14" penetration
grade A Speer Gold Dot 90 gr jhp, rated as a best buy, 13.5"
Grade B+ Federal Hydra Shok 90 gr jhp, 13.5"
Grade B+ Remington Golden Saber 102 gr 12.5"

Winchester SXT and PMC Starfire got grades of C, with 9 and 13" penetration, respectively.

As a control, Rem 125 gr jhp .38 special was tested, and penetration was 14", fired from a 2" Colt Detective Special.

All of the hollowpoints expanded well, although several testers said that they would load the solids and hope for the best.

Hope that helps.

I only have a Mustang left in 380. I see no advantage over this down too a 22 mag. No matter what the math says. The ruger is the best 380 for size that I have seen. I have two Kel Techs in 32. Summer gear. I may Purchase a 380 ruger next time just because they hit somewhat harder. But it is talking and placement that will save your a@@ In either caliber. Below 9mm I consider everything hardball or solids. 9MM I carry 147 LE Winchester Ranger. Look at seller Bellet hard ball on anything less

Interesting test results. The tests I've seen using ballistic gelatin put the FMJ ammo (American Eagle and Winchester WB) well ahead of any of the tested JHP rounds (including Speer, Federal, Remington, etc.) in terms of penetration...something on the order of TWICE the penetration. It's odd that the advantage of FMJs found in gel doesn't hold up in water. I imagine it has something to do with the higher viscocity of the gel acting on the higher velocity and high profile of JHP projectices to a greater extent than on the lower velocity and low profile FMJ projectiles.

I'm still torn between the two and may end up carrying FMJ/TMJ in the dead of winter, and JHP the rest of the time. Odds are good that I'll never need a pistol for anything other than a trip to the range, but, if I did neet it, I'm not sure that the 380 JHP is going to stop a determined attacked any faster than a 380 FMJ. It just doesn't seem like much is gained with the JHP. Even among the elite of the 380 JHPs, the good penetrators exhibit (generally) minimal expansion (e.g., Speer Gold Dot), and the poor penetrators exhibit great expansion and abysmal penetration (e.g., Corbon DPX). In the case of the former, I may as well be loading FMJ because you get darn near the same result. In the case of the latter, I *ought* to be loading FMJ because I wouldn't want to count on a well-expanded bulled that penetrated only five or six inches in ballistic gel.

In contrast, I carry the best expanding round I can find in 357 Mag because (a) plenty of penetration still is achieved, and (b) I don't want to see a bullet come flying out the back of anyone, including a determined attacker (i.e., overpenetration).

I'm still carrying Santa Barbara ammunition from the surplus supplies imported about 5 years ago for the infrequent times I find that I need to carry a .380 pistol.

This ammunition features a flat nosed (nose is actually slightly concave) bullet weighing 95 grains and giving a muzzle velocity of 1030 fps from my short-barreled Kel Tec P3AT. Its probably in the realm of "+P" in pressure but the little pistol has digested several boxes of it and seems none the worse for wear.



I'm uninterested in any sort of .380 ACP hollow point ammunition. I want penetration above all.

That's how I carry in my Ruger LCP, I start with a HP and next is a FMJ and so on with alternating HP and Ball rounds.

__________________
OGCA Member.

Did a couple of penetration tests on the shoulder and chest of my little whitetail harvest with my P3AT and Winchester white box from ten feet. Complete pass through one rib and the heart on a broadside and 6" penetration depth through the shoulder joint into the heart. The wound channel through the heart was 5/8" broadside and 3/4" on the shoulder one with the shoulder bullet holding together completely with little obturation.

This is exactly what I'd hoped for and is why I carry the WW white box in the pocket gun. That and I can shoot boatloads of them without breaking the bank.

__________________
Thanks from the beautiful Blue Ridge Mountains

In my LCP the 1st three rounds are Speer Gold Dot and if that won't work the next 4 are Buffalo Bore Hard Cast Flat Points. I would like to carry +P's but, I've been warned off at too many places

This is a very informative report. Thanks, Tycer.

I haven't actually had to shoot anybody with my KelTec P3AT (carrying a mix of Gold Dot and Golden Saber and Hornady XTP), but my brother-in-law actually shot a mugger with his KelTec P3AT with two rounds of Corbon DPX into his upper left chest and it took that big guy right down.

Thanks for the report, Barb. It's encouraging to hear a report of a 380 stopping an attack successfully. One hears so many fables about the 380 round simply bouncing off an attacker, as if he's a super villain or something.

One last question:

I read somewhere that Blazer Brass is the highest velocity, standard pressure FMJ round in short-barrel "real world" chronograph tests. We do know for certain that there is variation in velocity across the different brands of FMJ rounds (any of the various websites that list tests conducted by users confirms it), despite the fact that pretty much all major manufacturers list the same velocity for their FMJ rounds. Can anyone confirm the report that I read about Blazer Brass, or maybe just tell me where I read it (I should have bookmarked it when I found it)?

In my old Beretta 1934 with it's 3 7/16" barrel Blazer Brass averages
930 fps, Remington UMC gives 957 fps, and Federal AE gives 928 fps.
Realize that all ammo will vary from lot to lot. Win flat point is under
900 fps.

There's no definitive answer possible. A number of the so-called "Experts" seem to believe that FMJ is the best choice (not only in the .380 but also the .32 and .25) considering both its improved functional reliability and its greater penetration capability (though maybe not by a lot). It's probably too much to expect that bullet expansion with these lighter and slower-moving expanding bullets, if it occurs at all after passing through clothing, etc., will add any significant additional "Knock Down" capability vs. FMJ. Plus, if you ever HAVE to use one of the little guys, it will probably be at very close range where putting your shots into a BG's vital areas is easier than at a distance, and that's more important than a little bullet expansion.

In short, if one of the high-priced .380 loads makes you more confident in a dark alley, fine, go ahead and use it. Just don't expect miraculous performance.

Me? I use FMJ only. I carry a .25 ACP due to its minuscule size and ease of concealment. The only 100% functionally-reliable .25 round I have found after a lot of testing is the Blazer aluminum-cased FMJ. Of course, I'm not out prowling around in ghettos of large cities and other dangerous locations either, and always avoid going anyplace I shouldn't be, either armed or unarmed.