Just got back from the range. I fired three different 158gr LSWCHP+P loads from my 65-5, 3-inch, and 638-3 Bodyguard.

The three loads were:
Remington, Federal, and Buffalo Bore Low-flash.

The 65 was much more accurate with the Remis, followed by Federal, with BB in a distant last place.

The Bodyguard liked the Feds better, followed closely by the Remis and BB, in that order.

What I did learn is that, in these two revolvers, for me, the BB wasn't worth the extral money compared to the other two. Go figure!

I guess that I am indeed fortunate that the Buffalo Bore® 158gr LSWCHPGC +P is so very accurate in my revolvers. If that load is unavailable I go with the Remington® load as you do in your Mdl 65.

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David
CW3 USA (Ret) 1968-1990

I had a model 19 that would key hole the Buffalo Bore round, but was fine with the Remington version. It's hard to say why guns do well with one, and not so hot with another.

It's strange how loadings so similar can perform so different, in individual guns of the same caliber!

I really wanted the BB 20C to be "all that", but it wasn't. Maybe the BB heavy 20A +P load will be the ticket. I sure hope so. I aquired then to shoot in place of .357s in my K-frame magnums. I have couple of boxes of those too, and I'll try them next range session.

On the positive side Federals and Remingtons, while a bit difficult to find, can be had for less $$.

As long as the Buffalo Bore bullet doesn't hit sideways or completely miss a man at 10 paces, why in the world would you use anything else? Unless you load them yourself, everything else out there simply lacks velocity.

Dave Sinko

Might added recoil have affected your ability to shoot BB well? Or, maybe the bullet is too fast unless it's the gas check version. It may be skiding a bit. Did you see signs of leading in your barrels after shooting it?

My J-frames perfer the Feds and Remis as well. All things being equal as to accuracy, recoil, leading, weather, the Remingtons were, and are my choice. I will try the heavy BB .38+P however, and hope for better results!

I have fired Remington, Federal and Winchester FBI Loads. I like the Rem best for short barrel revolvers because the lead used by Rem is the softest of the three. All three are fine in a 4" barrel but I like the Federals a little better than the Winchester offering because in my revolvers they seem to be the most accurate. (although the older win ammo I have produces more velocity)

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Freedom is never free!!
SWCA #3437

The Remington +P round lacks velocity compared to the standard velocity low flash Buffalo Bore? I thought they were about the same.

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Gene

The BB ballistics blow the competition away. I would say if you can handle the added recoil, and your gun performs well with it, go with BB! Rem, Win & Fed stuff if fine, but the ballistics just are not there compared to the BB ammo (IMHO).

Am I the only one here that is a little sketchy about using BB or Corbon products in .38+P??? That is something I might carry in a smaller .357 but to trust the internal parts, springs, and heat treating with red hot nuclear ammo in a .38 special revolver is how tragedy tends to happen. I have nothing against these two companies or anyone else who loads similar, but this is in my opinion ammo that is far more suited to a 640 than a 642.

I don't think that BB or CorBon +P ammo is 'dangerous' in lightweight snubbies as long as they are rated for +P ammo, but no two ways about it, they are going to accelerate wear on the guns.

Was just wondering if anyone has chronographed these loads from 2-3-4" barreled guns... From some of the articles I have read the Federal-Remington-Winchester +P 158s HPs from a 4" gun run in the area of 950+- fps but only 775 from a 2".

Bob

I'll bet someone around here has crony data on the discussed ammunition. I hope they'll weigh in.

Engine18,

It's been a while, but the Remington chrnonographed 842 from one of my 642s and Stephen Camp (member here) has posted on his site that he got an average of about 820 with the RP load from three or four different J-frame guns. The Federal and WW loads didn't break 800 which tracks with my experience. I greatly prefer the Remington based on some industry professional recommendations (from a competitor) due to: softer lead bullet, semi-hollowbased bullet (better accuracy and higher velocity) and larger hollow point cavity.

I've tested the round in water testing and have gotten expansion even through denim testing (which is not the norm). It's been in service for a long time and has decked lots of bad guys. I think it's a keeper.

I have seen reliable data to indicate that the Buffalo Bore +P load consistently does at least 1030 FPS out of a 2" barrel and often the velocity is higher. It also reportedly extracts easily from the K Frame .38 Special revolvers, which in my opinion is what really makes the load something special. There are handloads that can at least match this performance in the tougher J Frame but so far I can not do it in my "weak sister" Model 64. It seems Buffalo Bore uses a special low flash powder and they are not willing to share with anybody else.

Dave Sinko

Here's a thread I put up last summer after some chronograph tests. The Buffalo Bore is all it's cracked up to be in my view. I'm still carrying the Remington +P load at present. It's not a bad performer at all.

Some .38 Special Chronograph Tests

bmc, I want to say that I appreciate your well thought out posts. .41long, and .38spl, especially.

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dd884
JMHO-YMMV

Thanks a lot ddixie! There's suppose to be a ".38 Special II" but life, other handloading needs, and pre-deer season has intruded for the moment.

AH! That beloved velocity!! How we all get sucked up into that magical, mystical world of velocity!!

The BB load I used was the 20C/20 Standard Pressre Low Flash. I have not yet tried the 20D/20 Heavy, but will soon.

My comments were just an observation based on accuracy from my guns. I want accuracy first! As a side note, I mentioned the price of the BB vs the Feds and Remis. I'm happy that the Remis are more accurate from my guns, and cost much less than BB offerings. I got lucky!

Velocity is the way you get a .36 caliber hollow point bullet to expand. I have sighted it in from my two and three inch j-frames, and they display fine accuracy at 15-20 feet, which is what I consider about maximum combat range for a private citizen with these revolvers.

I can now carry my two-inch Model 60 with a little more confidence in bullet performance. The plus-pee stuff from the major manufacturers is a joke. Just look at results from bmcgilvry's and chief38's chrono threads in this forum, as well as BB's web site.

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Georgia On My Mind

I agree that +P 38spl from the major manufacturers is a joke...underperforming and overpriced. I do like the way the Remington load shoots however.
I have written here before about the excessive number of RNL and FMJ loads for sale in 38spl...often these loads are all I see for sale in 38spl. I just dont see that there is such high demand for FMJ 38spl...I dont understand why a company would gear up to produce thousands of rounds of 38spl and then make it an FMJ...why not just sell a great 158gn LSWC load, which most 38spl users would prefer?
The Buffalo Bore load is one I would like to try in my Model 15-3, but the price makes me choke. I have this mental image of dollar bills burning with each squeeze of the trigger.

My guess is today the typical .38 owner has dad's old .38 stuffed in the night stand. They just want a box of "bullets" for the "pistol" and just like they dont know its a cartridge and a revolver the only thing they know about a box of "shells" is how much they cost.

For the manufacturers its a way to use old tooling from the days those rounds were police (LRN) and USAF (FMJ) issue.

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Gene

I now have all of my K frames loaded with the Buffalo Bore for defense. Because of the increased velocity of this round versus the Remington I think its work the extra money. Now I don't have too load a 357 in my K frame magnums.
Howard

I like the BB standard velocity in my wife's old model 36 2" and 3", SP101 2".38 and Rossi 2" .38 revolvers. I like the +P version in the King Cobra 4", Security Six 4" and Ruger SP101 3" .357's. Accuracy has been good in everything. Recoil in all these combinations is very controllable. The wife has no trouble using any of them and being accurate. She hates automatics and doesn't want anything to do with them. I use the revolvers for house guns because we can both use them well and she uses the snubs for concealed carry. I stocked up on BB when it was on sale at Cabela's for $19.99 a box and coupons for free shipping. Still a hell of a lot on money for ammo, but it is good stuff.

I have done actual Chrony testings more than once and have come up with consistent results every time. About 7 or 8 months ago I posted my results on this Forum.

Long story short, out of my 2" Chief's Special M60, the Buffalo Bore 158 grain LSWCHP +P (heavy) consistently moved out at around 1040 fps as compared to high 700's to low 800's with the Rem, Win. Fed 158 grain +P LSWCHP's. For me, the BB loads were very accurate and though they were stiff, they were quite controllable.

In my M65 I use the BB 158 grain JHP .Heavy .357 loads. They are simply devastating out of the 3" tube. When I am in Bear country and want a small compact package, I will use the BB 180 gr. .357's. My feeling has always and will always be that if I am going to be bothered carrying the extra weight and bulk of a .357 Mag Revolver, I want it loaded with .357 loads that justify carrying it. If I am going to use .38 Spl. loads, I'll use my M60 and take advantage of the smaller size and reduced weight. I was never one who liked stoking a .357 with .38 spl's.

chief38

As I read that BB is accurate in many S&W's and not at all in others, I wonder about the change in rifling being a contributor. I was unaware of this change until I read the article on 44 spl's in the 696. The traditional 250 gr Keith loads did not like it. IIRC, the rifling was no longer cut square, but machined to a trapezoid shape. Don't know the timing or which models, but perhaps those experiencing problems with BB accuracy have the newer (or older) rifling.

Can someone give us details on this change and opinions on the selectivity of ammo for it.


Charlie

I have a 4" heavy barrel model 10-7 .38 that isn't marked +P.
What are member's thoughts on using BB+P?
How about a 2" 64-6 .38 with standard barrel?

That is pretty close to the results I got. I was shooting the BB 158gr LSWCHP with gas checks in a 2 inch model 64.

Lo 1028
Hi 1070
Av 1044
ES 41.9
SD 15.26
8 rounds total that's all I had left

I don't think it would be a very pleasant load in a j frame.

Anyone know how the BB version performs through gel in relation to how the Remington performs?

I tested the Buffalo Bore +P 158 grain ammunition in a Model 10-6 Heavy Barrel a little older than yours. Also in a 2-inch Model 10-9 from 1996 and a Model 14-4 from 1979. All these revolvers eagerly ate the Buffalo Bore and came back for more though they aren't roll-marked "+P.". Extraction was normal in all the revolvers and primers gave no signs of high pressure.

I'll pick up a box and see how it feels in my M10.

You won't be disappointed. I use the round in my Model 10 4 inch heavy barrel. Too me it is better than any +P 38 special round.

Howard

Chief38, thanks for summing it up so well. +1

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Always Stay Strong!

I just posted a thread on my experience with Buffalo Bores 38+P LSWCHP "FBI" round at my favorite range. I was using my model 10 4 inch heavy barrel. Overall, I like the round. The recoil for me was light shooting a 357 magnum round. Very stiff. My only concern was followup shots because of the recoil. I also feel this will vary depending on the shooter.

Summary, this definitely is the hottest +P 38 special round I have ever used. I have tried many different +P rounds and this one is head and shoulders stronger than the others. I do feel one will have too practice a lot with this round if they are going to carry it for self defense. I also feel this round is better used in a all steel revolver with at least a 3 inch barrel.

Howard

It sounds hot, road dog

Isn't +P ok in post '58 s&w k frames?

They make a run of it from time to time. Get on the back-order list at Natchez, or Midway.

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dd884
JMHO-YMMV

Midway has it in stock, yesterday it was not:
Remington Express Ammunition 38 Special +P 158 Grain Lead Hollow Point Box of 50 - MidwayUSA

Some interesting post.

If anyone's interested Ammo-To-Go has the Federal FBI Load in stock for only $20.99/50 rounds. They also have 500 and 1000 round lots available on their site too. For only $21 a box I just ordered 100 rounds even though I have a few hundred rounds of the FBI load already. You never know when it's going to be unavailable again.

The also have the Winchester FBI Load to but they want $33.95/50 rounds and that's way too much IMO considering the Federal ammo above is only $21/50 rounds.

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Freedom is never free!!
SWCA #3437

Yes, prices do seem to be going up.

That Federal ammo is a Lead SWC HP bullet from what I know about it, not a jacketed bullet.

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SWCA #3437

Prices seem to be going up in everything.

Reliable expansion is the reason I use the Remington FBI Load in a short barrel revolver. The lead they use is soft enough to expand even at the lower velocities associated with short barrel handguns. In a 4" barrel I would choose the best accuracy between the Federal, Winchester and Remington loads. IMO all 3 are fine in the longer barrel and in reality I would choose the Winchester first followed by the Federal and then the Remington in a 4" barrel. BUT, since the Federal ammo is so much cheaper that's what I carry.

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SWCA #3437

Thanks for the heads up. I use this ammo in my truck gun, and it's pretty hard to find recently.

Good point.

IMO all 3 are equally "good" but that depends upon what application you're asking about. Like I said above I prefer Remington in short barrels. Winchester seems to have the highest velocity. Federal seems to be more accurate than Winchester. I guess what I'm getting at is, you will have to try them in your revolver to see which performs best for you. None take a backseat to the others depending upon your revolver.

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Freedom is never free!!
SWCA #3437

I believe lead bullets are a bit more problematic to load on high speed equipment- it just needs to be cleaned a bit more often- not really a problem, but more of an aggravation to management of these companies that want loads that have the "bling" of those expensive, highly advertised HP's that they can make a much larger margin on. I think Winchester is the worst of the gougers on the ammunition, as it almost seems they don't want to make it (or want to make their standard margin that they would on their "designer" defense loads), as $30.00+ a box is just more than the market will bear for it.

It's kinda hard to get the unknowing public to ante-up some extra cash on some no-name lead hollow-point bullets that have been made since Elmer Keith was alive and writing articles. Anyway, those SWCHP's don't have a moniker or snappy name with them that they can advertise easily and any company can make them, so there is no brand name that can be attached to them from the big guys.

However, it seems that Buffalo Bore is doing a darn good job at making this part of their marketing scheme and doing a very good job of it. They make this load, that has been made for years by nearly every company, but they make it at more consistently higher quality than any other company currently. I think they've got a great idea here- rather than being a "me too" company that brings out some new-fangled whiz-bang (pun intended) jacketed HP to push sales, they specialize in good, consistent and accurate ammunition.

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Lost it all in a boat accident

I tried some BB 158gr LSWCHP +P in my 637 airweight a while back and was more impressed with the recoil than any of its other attributes.

It was okay in my all steel snubbies, but follow up grouping wasn't anything to write home about.

When shot out of a 686, it felt like a mild .357mag, so that's how the remainder of the box was finally used.

I picked up a case of Federal 38G a couple years back and it shoots well out of everything I own in .38/.357 caliber, including the 637 and a Rossi M92 carbine, so that's what they are loaded with when not at the range.

I haven't tried the BB non+p LSWCHP, but I might look into them if I ever run out of the Federal 38G.

More realistically, my 38G stash will most likely be around long after I'm gone since I practice with LSWC reloads in the 637 that have the same POI and recoil as the 38Gs.

When all is said and done, what it boils down to is try them all, use whatever works best for you and practice, practice, practice.

Hope you all had a Merry Christmas and will have a Happy New Year,
John

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Age + Treachery = JohnnieB