Smith & Wesson Forum

Go Back   Smith & Wesson Forum > Ammunition-Gunsmithing > Ammo
o

Notices

Ammo All Ammo Discussions Go Here


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 12-06-2010, 11:47 AM
147_Grain 147_Grain is offline
Member
Self-Defense Bullet Selection Criteria Self-Defense Bullet Selection Criteria Self-Defense Bullet Selection Criteria Self-Defense Bullet Selection Criteria Self-Defense Bullet Selection Criteria  
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: USA
Posts: 54
Likes: 0
Liked 14 Times in 7 Posts
Lightbulb Self-Defense Bullet Selection Criteria

When it comes to self-defense and preservation, everyone naturally wants more odds in their favor. After proper training and shot placement, understanding a few basic principles surrounding bullet construction and choice of caliber (within reason) are important as well.

When selecting ammo for self-defense, please consider these basic principles:

1. Heavy for caliber UNbonded hollow-point (HP) bullets generally outperform their lighter-weight counterparts (across the board) in Gelatin, 4-Ply Denim, Heavy Cloth, Wallboard, Glass, and Metal, with only a few exceptions. Example: 9mm = 147-gr. unbonded HP / 40 S&W = 180-gr. unbonded HP / 45 ACP = 230-gr. unbonded HP. Plus P (+P) loads at 50 – 75 fps higher velocity typically perform better than standard pressure loads with the same bullet.

2. Exception #1: Mid-weight BONDED bullets need to be driven at faster (+P) velocities in order to perform well in all-around testing through various media. UNbonded mid-weight bullets (at regular or +P velocities) are typically outperformed by most heavy for caliber loads. Example of mid-weight BONDED loads: 9mm = 124-gr. +P / 40 S&W = 165-gr. +P / 45 ACP = 200-gr. +P.

3. Exception #2: Lead-free all copper JHP’s (Jacketed Hollow Points) are lightweight in nature and in comparison to regular HP’s, their make-up in volume is longer than the weight of a regular HP bullet. Hence, a medium weight copper JHP might have a similar overall length to a regular heavy for caliber HP. Barnes makes XPB and LE Tac-XP (Law Enforcement Tactical) copper bullets in most calibers and manufactures are jumping on the band wagon using copper JHP’s that are very effective when driven at higher (+P) velocities.

4. Most self-defense situations will require a bullet that penetrates deeper than imagined in order to reach the vitals! Bad guys (BG’s) typically will be moving and your selected HP load may have to penetrate at LONGER odd-angles than imagined in order to reach the vitals. (They won’t hold still for you like a B-27 target at the range will.) Furthermore, during stressful situations, it is often necessary for a bullet to have to (first) go through an extremity before even penetrating the upper chest cavity (e.g. hand, arm, shoulder, neck, leg, thigh, ribs, bones, and etc…)! Because of these factors, selecting a bullet that comes close to meeting or exceeding the FBI protocol of 12" minimum penetration is preferred in order to ensure full penetration.

Note: If your favorite handgun load typically struggles to reach 11" - 12" of penetration into Gel, 4-Ply Denim, or Heavy Cloth, consider upgrading to a heavy duty bonded HP, hardcast wadcutter, or use FMJ.

5. After shot placement into the upper Thoracic (Sniper's) Triangle area, penetration is the key to putting more odds in your favor. Good expansion characteristics is a plus and this (along with penetration) makes for a good choice in BALANCED self-defense ammo.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 12-06-2010, 01:14 PM
ArchAngelCD's Avatar
ArchAngelCD ArchAngelCD is offline
Moderator
SWCA Member
Absent Comrade
Self-Defense Bullet Selection Criteria Self-Defense Bullet Selection Criteria Self-Defense Bullet Selection Criteria Self-Defense Bullet Selection Criteria Self-Defense Bullet Selection Criteria  
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Northeast PA, USA
Posts: 8,877
Likes: 1,029
Liked 5,070 Times in 2,660 Posts
Default

A .45 ACP bullet doesn't need to be driven all that fast to do a good job stopping the bad guy. A 230gr bullet traveling at between 800 fps and 900 fps that's already .451" wide is going to do a lot of damage and that's been proven over the past 100 years.

IMO way too much time is spent agonizing over bullet construction when these days most SD bullets work very well. Shot placement and reliability is much more important than your bullet choice IMO. Practice, practice , practice and them practice some more. (and buy the ammo that always feeds reliably in your pistol)
__________________
Freedom is never free!!
SWCA #3437
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 12-06-2010, 01:32 PM
147_Grain 147_Grain is offline
Member
Self-Defense Bullet Selection Criteria Self-Defense Bullet Selection Criteria Self-Defense Bullet Selection Criteria Self-Defense Bullet Selection Criteria Self-Defense Bullet Selection Criteria  
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: USA
Posts: 54
Likes: 0
Liked 14 Times in 7 Posts
Default

Good Point!

In self-preservation, the self-defense SYSTEM isn't just your reliable weapon with ammo that feeds well, it also includes YOU! Failure to train means YOU are likely to be the weak link in your SYSTEM of preservation and familiarity is key to your success.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 12-06-2010, 01:33 PM
147_Grain 147_Grain is offline
Member
Self-Defense Bullet Selection Criteria Self-Defense Bullet Selection Criteria Self-Defense Bullet Selection Criteria Self-Defense Bullet Selection Criteria Self-Defense Bullet Selection Criteria  
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: USA
Posts: 54
Likes: 0
Liked 14 Times in 7 Posts
Lightbulb

In addition:

When you go to the range and put that human silhouette out there for target practice, are you aiming for the upper “Thoracic Triangle” area or just center mass where the stomach is?

FYI:

The upper Thoracic or Sniper’s Triangle is the area you should aim for because it has a greater concentration of arteries and major organs (heart & lungs) than any other part of the body. This area is generally located between the armpits (nipples) and the bottom of the neck.

Draw a line horizontally between both armpits and then (from each side) draw two more lines inwards at 45* angles towards the base of the throat. This is the vulnerable Thoracic Triangle area, where blood pressure usually drops the quickest and results in unconsciousness faster than lower center mass hits will.

(Some range targets still have the center 10-ring about 3" lower than ideal, so adjust accordingly. Others have raised the small CENTER RING up a bit over the years, but still not quite high enough - about 1 1/2" to 2" too low.)

Next to a difficult spine or Central Nervous System (CNS) shot, this Thoracic Triangle region is the most advantageous area for multiple hits in order to immediately stop a threat. Well-placed multiple shots from any caliber into the central upper Thoracic Triangle Area is more likely to incapacitate the BG than elsewhere. Center-mass hits to the upper chest region maximize wound trauma as they cause rapid (fatal) hemorrhage that quickly deprives the brain of oxygenated blood needed to maintain consciousness.

Self-defense shots typically have to penetrate deeper than we typically imagine. About 2/3'rds of the time, projectiles have to travel at odd angles and it is also common for a bullet to go through a hand, arm, leg, shoulder, ribs, bones, and etc... before reaching the chest cavity that houses the vitals. Because of these factors, selecting a bullet that comes close to meeting or exceeding the FBI protocol of 12" minimum penetration is preferred in order to ensure full penetration. If your favorite handgun load typically struggles to reach 10" - 12" of penetration into Gel, 4-Ply Denim, or Heavy Cloth, consider upgrading to a heavy duty bonded HP, hardcast wadcutter, or use FMJ.

All handguns are somewhat underpowered in immediately stopping threats. Unfortunately, the human body is tough / well-built and an attacker can still function / cause harm for up to 45 +/- seconds with a hit into the UPPER chest region (not shoulder); so multiple well-placed hits into the upper Thoracic Triangle area are likely needed in order to stop the threat more quickly!

Raising your sights (when practicing at the range) for self-defense situations is more apt to save your life than lower center mass shots into the upper stomach (where the 10-ring is on many human silhouette targets). Getting into the habit of [b]aiming higher than normal during range time will put more odds in your corner should the need arise during preservation of life situations![/
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 12-06-2010, 02:52 PM
firearmsunlimited's Avatar
firearmsunlimited firearmsunlimited is offline
Member
Self-Defense Bullet Selection Criteria Self-Defense Bullet Selection Criteria Self-Defense Bullet Selection Criteria Self-Defense Bullet Selection Criteria Self-Defense Bullet Selection Criteria  
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Arizona
Posts: 1,220
Likes: 2
Liked 128 Times in 44 Posts
Default

"When selecting ammo for self-defense, please consider these basic principles:

1. Heavy for caliber UNbonded hollow-point (HP) bullets......45 ACP = 230-gr. unbonded HP. Plus P (+P) loads at 50 – 75 fps higher velocity typically perform better than standard pressure loads with the same bullet."


On 10/25/96 the FBI released RFP #6990 relative to procurement of 1911 sidearms for their Critical Response Group that is comprised of the Hostage Rescue Team and SWAT. The RFP specifically stated that the successful bidder's firearm would be tested and must function with the FBI selected ammunition that scored high in their protocol, namely, Remington Golden Saber 230 grain BONDED, NON +P, even though +P was available at the time.

"All handguns are somewhat underpowered in immediately stopping threats."

Large caliber handgun loads frequently cause complete and immediate nervous system shutdown resulting from massive concussion in the thoractic cavity.
__________________
Doug
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 12-06-2010, 03:44 PM
badguybuster badguybuster is offline
Member
Self-Defense Bullet Selection Criteria Self-Defense Bullet Selection Criteria Self-Defense Bullet Selection Criteria  
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: WV
Posts: 1,252
Likes: 7
Liked 244 Times in 74 Posts
Default

Wow. Thats some great info. That being said, I took a street survival course about 15 years ago that advocated shooting a similar area only across the hips to the belly button area to break the pelvis (only in situations were the BG did not have a gun). I practiced it on the range for a while but never felt wholly comfortable that it would achieve the desired result. So, I stick with two to the chest and one to the head. But, I agree that the best weapon is you, you fight how you train, if you dont train, your fighting WILL fail you. Never hurts to practice hand to hand either. Good knife skills dont hurt. Up close and personal a knife is a superb combat weapon.
__________________
Dyin ain't much of a livin
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 12-06-2010, 03:47 PM
147_Grain 147_Grain is offline
Member
Self-Defense Bullet Selection Criteria Self-Defense Bullet Selection Criteria Self-Defense Bullet Selection Criteria Self-Defense Bullet Selection Criteria Self-Defense Bullet Selection Criteria  
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: USA
Posts: 54
Likes: 0
Liked 14 Times in 7 Posts
Default

Since civilians cannot be as aggressive as LE Officers, unbonded heavy for caliber ammo is recommended along with a few bonded +P middle-weight loads. Heavily bonded bullets are generally not needed for the "average civilian" because you want a balanced combination of expansion and penetration, whereas with LE, penetration is 90% of the equation and not much is made of expansion nor the 87% - 91% of bullets that miss their intended targets.

Unbonded heavy for caliber loads help maximize MORE wound trauma because they expand more (than a similarly bonded projectile) - causing more rapid (fatal) hemorrhage that more quickly deprives the brain of oxygenated blood needed to maintain consciousness.

FBI standards have been upgraded several times over the last 15 years +/- and both standard and +P pressure loads from Federal (HST), Winchester (Ranger T unbonded & bonded / PDX1 for civilians), and Remington (Golden Saber) all meet their protocol standards, which include scenarios CIVILIANS likely won't be facing.

It's also no secret that current internal testing from major ammo manufactures all show that their +P loads (50 - 75 fps faster) outperform the standard pressure version with the same bullet. Often there isn't a great deal of difference in performance, but if you have a choice and you and your handgun can shoot it effectively, get the +P version when it's available.

In summary, because civilian self-preservation needs are different than LE, unbonded heavy for caliber loads typically perform better across the board in Gel, 4-Ply Denim, and Heavy Cloth - all areas civilians are more apt to face than the FBI with heavy for caliber bonded loads.

Last edited by 147_Grain; 12-06-2010 at 04:10 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 12-06-2010, 04:21 PM
147_Grain 147_Grain is offline
Member
Self-Defense Bullet Selection Criteria Self-Defense Bullet Selection Criteria Self-Defense Bullet Selection Criteria Self-Defense Bullet Selection Criteria Self-Defense Bullet Selection Criteria  
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: USA
Posts: 54
Likes: 0
Liked 14 Times in 7 Posts
Default

Examples of +P loads that perform a little better than standard pressure which is still OK (Shoot what YOU and your weapon can handle the best.):


************ 9mm Luger / 9X19 ************


Federal HST: LE Only
** 147-gr. +P HST HP (P9HST4)@ 1,050 fps +P Outperforms Standard Pressure Version
* 147-gr. HST HP (P9HST2) @ 1,000 fps Standard Pressure is Still OK, but +P is Preferred

http://le.atk.com/general/federalpro...cticalhst.aspx

LE - Wound Ballistics

LE - Wound Ballistic Videos



************ 10mm (FBI) Auto ************

Double Tap:
* 180-gr. +P Golden Saber HP. Higher velocity outperforms 40 S&W with the same bullet.



************ 45 ACP ************

Federal HST: LE Only
** 230-gr. +P HST HP (P45HST1): +P Outperforms Standard Pressure Version
* 230-gr. HST HP (P45HST2): Standard Pressure is Still OK, but +P is Preferred

http://le.atk.com/general/federalpro...cticalhst.aspx

LE - Wound Ballistics

LE - Wound Ballistic Videos


Winchester Ranger T: LE Only
** 230-gr. +P HP (RA45TP) @ 990 fps. +P Outperforms Standard Pressure Version
* 230-gr. HP (RA45T) @ 905 fps. Standard Pressure is Still OK, but +P is Preferred


Double Tap:
** 230-gr. +P Golden Saber HP. Outperforms Remington's standard pressure version.

Last edited by 147_Grain; 12-06-2010 at 04:24 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 12-07-2010, 11:16 AM
safearm's Avatar
safearm safearm is offline
Member
Self-Defense Bullet Selection Criteria Self-Defense Bullet Selection Criteria Self-Defense Bullet Selection Criteria Self-Defense Bullet Selection Criteria Self-Defense Bullet Selection Criteria  
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Mississippi
Posts: 1,753
Likes: 232
Liked 687 Times in 252 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 147_Grain View Post
Since civilians cannot be as aggressive as LE Officers, unbonded heavy for caliber ammo is recommended along with a few bonded +P middle-weight loads.
I believe that civilians have greater latitude in self-defense situations than LE officers. In my experiences, civilians need only prove that they were acting prudently, and were in fear of their life, or feared for the safety of someone that was with them (wife, children, etc.).
LE officers must demonstrate that they were acting in accordance with department policy, state and federal law, and in a manner consistent with what another LE officer, faced with the same conditions, would do.
When I taught Personal Security courses, I frequently recommended that civilians carry the same type of handgun and ammunition carried by LE. In the event the civilian was involved in a self-defense situation where gunfire occurred, it helped to demonstrate that the individual had acted reasonably, i.e., they were using the same type gun and ammunition as the police, and had received training on the selection and use of those items.
It's only my opinion, but civilians that pick and choose the "best" or "most effective" self-defense gun and ammunition, especially when it differs from what the local LE agencies carry, open themselves up for greater scrutiny during SD circumstances, i.e., they were not content with what the police carry, they had to pick a "killer" ammunition. I also have the same opinion about reloaded ammunition, i.e., it's great for practice, but NEVER carry it on the street; there's enough quality factory ammunition available.
Despite everything that's taught and discussed, juries are fickle, and they might listen to reason, or they might ignore fact. I try to limit my exposure by practicing what I preach; for SD, I carry the same gun as the local police and use a recognized LE round. It's not the "best," but it serves the purpose and is legally defensible.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 12-07-2010, 11:44 AM
147_Grain 147_Grain is offline
Member
Self-Defense Bullet Selection Criteria Self-Defense Bullet Selection Criteria Self-Defense Bullet Selection Criteria Self-Defense Bullet Selection Criteria Self-Defense Bullet Selection Criteria  
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: USA
Posts: 54
Likes: 0
Liked 14 Times in 7 Posts
Exclamation

I generally agree with you, except for these two points:

Civilians not being as aggressive as LE officers is completely different than having more latitude or flexibility. Agree with you about being given more flexibility, particularly if its a defenseless women and in other circumstances. This is a whole 'nother issue.

Also, a jury of your peers isn't likely to frown upon you if you use ammo the LE Community uses and not the brand your LOCAL PD is issued. Example: Local PD uses Speer Gold Dot and you use Winchester or Federal that many other LE Agencies use.

Last edited by 147_Grain; 12-07-2010 at 01:07 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 12-07-2010, 12:24 PM
safearm's Avatar
safearm safearm is offline
Member
Self-Defense Bullet Selection Criteria Self-Defense Bullet Selection Criteria Self-Defense Bullet Selection Criteria Self-Defense Bullet Selection Criteria Self-Defense Bullet Selection Criteria  
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Mississippi
Posts: 1,753
Likes: 232
Liked 687 Times in 252 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 147_Grain View Post
I generally agree with you, except for these two points:

Civilians not being asaggressive as LE officers is completely different than having more latitude or flexibility. Agree with you about being given more flexibility, particularly if its a defenseless women and in other circumstances. This is a whole 'nother issue.

Also, a jury of your peers isn't likely to frown upon you if you use ammo the LE Community uses and not the brand your LOCAL PD is issued. Example: Local PD uses Speer Gold Dot and you use Winchester or Federal that many other LE Agencies use.
I'm not comfortable with the term "aggressive," for either civilians or LE. Every SD situtaion I've investigated/examined, the issue has always been "defensive," even for LE. Unlike the military, LE is not supposed to be "offensive," although SWAT-type operations may appear that way. The goal is to use minimum force to achieve the ends, the force level being determined by the offender, not LE.
I believe LE has more restrictions, primarily through administrative means, on their responses to deadly encounters, and "aggressive" is not a term that an LE supervisor would want to describe the manner in which a deadly force situation was resolved.
Similarly, civilians have "restrictions" in their actions. While it is not only acceptable, but encouraged, for LE to wear a ballistic vest, a civilian wearing one as part of their daily attire (assuming they are not in a occupation where it would be acceptable) could be considered "looking for trouble" or perhaps delusional.
I agree that a civilian does not have to carry what the local LE carries, but using an LE standard, i.e., "I carry what the FBI, state police, etc. carries," is perfectly defensible.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 12-07-2010, 12:52 PM
Birddog2 Birddog2 is offline
Member
Self-Defense Bullet Selection Criteria  
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Idaho
Posts: 79
Likes: 6
Liked 8 Times in 5 Posts
Default

Number one on my list is absolute, 100% reliability to feed, fire and extract.
Feeding reliability should not be limited to semi-autos, but should include ease of fast reloading with speedloaders and moon clips.
Some bullet ogives are better than others.
Other considerations are lower recoil, for faster follow up shots, and muzzle flash.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
1911, military, projectiles, remington, silhouette, tactical, wadcutter, winchester

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Help with 357 bullet selection Elksticker Reloading 27 02-02-2016 08:24 AM
Lead bullet selection for M&P 9mm ? tlen Reloading 3 06-07-2014 12:50 PM
Lead bullet selection for 9mm M&P ? tlen Smith & Wesson M&P Pistols 4 06-07-2014 08:39 AM
home defense shotgun selection rock n roll kid Firearms & Knives: Other Brands & General Gun Topics 48 04-28-2012 07:16 PM
45 autorim bullet selection hastings Reloading 9 10-25-2010 11:17 AM

Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.3
smith-wessonforum.com tested by Norton Internet Security smith-wessonforum.com tested by McAfee Internet Security

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 07:22 AM.


Smith-WessonForum.com is not affiliated with Smith & Wesson Holding Corporation (NASDAQ Global Select: SWHC)