Newbie Question: Is a 9mm Enough for Self Protection

[Jeff Lynch]

I'll be the first to admit it. I've never owned anything but a 9mm handgun. I shot with a Beretta 92FS for several years but never liked the size of the grip. I currently shoot with an M&P 9c while all my friends are shooting 40's & 45's. I practice with Winchester 9mm Nato rounds (124g) and carry Winchester Supreme Elite Bonded PDX1 for self protection.

Does a 9mm round really have what it takes?

[palmetto99]

Ok, lets open up this can of worms.

[Charles]

Yes. Ignore your friends if they're teasing you

[beemerphile]

If it's good enough for almost every army on the planet, it is good enough to keep the homeboys heads down until SWAT gets there with the artillery.

[Dragon88]

This is a debate that will never reach a conclusion. All I will say is, shot placement is everything. Whatever you plan to defend yourself with, be it 25 ACP or 45 Auto, practice practice practice and know that you can place your shots correctly under enormous stress in a life threatening situation. The caliber becomes far less important at that point.

[hdfinder47]

Originally Posted by Dragon88

This is a debate that will never reach a conclusion. All I will say is, shot placement is everything. Whatever you plan to defend yourself with, be it 25 ACP or 45 Auto, practice practice practice and know that you can place your shots correctly under enormous stress in a life threatening situation. The caliber becomes far less important at that point.

Exactly this ^^^^.

[sean79]

But, isn't the bad guy more dead if he's shot with a .45?

[mgeoffriau]

Shot placement is the first priority, but we're also not recommending .22LR as a SD load.

That said, a top-shelf 9mm load ranks as more than adequate according to every standard I've seen. Is .40 or .45 marginally better? Possibly. But they are all pitifully weak compared to a shotgun or rifle. Carry and shoot what you are comfortable with.

[paragon1]

Originally Posted by Jeff Lynch

I'll be the first to admit it. I've never owned anything but a 9mm handgun. I shot with a Beretta 92FS for several years but never liked the size of the grip. I currently shoot with an M&P 9c while all my friends are shooting 40's & 45's. I practice with Winchester 9mm Nato rounds (124g) and carry Winchester Supreme Elite Bonded PDX1 for self protection.

Does a 9mm round really have what it takes?

Yes. It is fine.
http://www.winchester.com/SiteCollec...law_bullit.swf

[jppezz23]

Different opinions on everything,I had a 9mm glock it was ok but today I carry an SD40.

[jdesro1911]

Originally Posted by paragon1

Yes. It is fine.
http://www.winchester.com/SiteCollec...law_bullit.swf

That is a great chart, Paragon1. Especially comparing the 9mm to the .40, there really seems to be an insignificant difference between the two under most circumstances. Even when you throw the .45 in the mix, the only thing you are gaining is a little more expansion diameter, with similar penetration (and more bullet weight, of course).

[kennyb]

i carried a 92d beretta 9mm for a number of years as a duty weapon...never felt undergunned...keep in mind that beretta is what unseated the 45cal.from issued military sidearm after MANY years of use

[stantheman86]

My opinion, short answer - Yes! 9mm is a good round for self defense.

Longer answer-

9mm has been around for over 100 years and still going stronger than ever. It's the most common handgun round on planet Earth. Many,many people have been "closed out" by 9mm rounds since before WWI.

The Russians and the rest of the former Com Bloc countries made good use of 9x18 pistols from the 60's up until today, which is less powerful than 9mm Parabellum.

Ignore the hype that you "need" a hand cannon to defend yourself. As a civilian CCW holder 9mm is plenty......don't forget, there's also 9mm +P and +P+ if you've got a gun that can handle it. The energy ratings on the +P+ may surprise you. Add in a HP bullet and you've got a little powerhouse of a round. I can carry 17+1 rounds of 9mm +P in my CZ-85.......that's still a few more rounds than the highest capacity .40's and .45's.......people say "only a few rounds, 3 or 4 rounds don't matter I have a .45"......well, if I've got 3 or 4 more potentially life-saving rounds before I have to reload, that matters to me. 4 or even 5 rounds more in my mag, well that's nearly a full load in a revolver......I figure if I have to reload in a gunfight, as a civilian CC holder, it's really hit the fan......but I still like having those rounds anyway.

I was talking to a co-worker today, he knows pretty much 0 about guns, but wants to get a CCW permit for protection. He is already letting people fill his head with this nonsense that "lots of people are walking around with 9mm bullets in them, not many are out there with .45's or .357's in them......" I hate this macho "9mm is a pop gun" BS......of all the many semi-auto handguns I own, most are 9mm, I consider myself a fan of the 9mm Parabellum.

I'm also a guy who loves .38 Special, also considered "weak" by some......I don't buy guns or use calibers based on what others think.

[Kanewpadle]

Originally Posted by Dragon88

This is a debate that will never reach a conclusion. All I will say is, shot placement is everything. Whatever you plan to defend yourself with, be it 25 ACP or 45 Auto, practice practice practice and know that you can place your shots correctly under enormous stress in a life threatening situation. The caliber becomes far less important at that point.

This thread needs to locked because this is the best answer that could possibly be given by anyone.

[MDaly]

The only thing I will say is that I have seen a fairly large number of folks who were deader than a hammer and they had 9mm holes in them. I may or may not have been involved in putting those 9mm holes in their final locations. It is a good people killer. It may not do it quickly and it may not stop a determined attacker of someone drunk or drugged but it will kill them sooner of later.

Does that make it good for personal defense? Some say yes and some say no. YMMV

MD

[bigshot500]

unless your living under a rock, this is a topic in very poor taste in light of what happened last week in Arizona with a nutjob and a 9mm.

[tbury]

Just to throw in a wild card, the hottest (current rage) CCW cal is .380. All the major hand gun makers have come out with a new model in this caliber in the last 18 mo. This is not to say .380 is better than 9mm, it's not. But the gun you are willing to carry is more powerful than the one left in the car or safe. A center mass hit with a 9mm should do the job under "normal" circumstances. JMHO. I have two .40 cal pistols but carry a 642 .38 spcl.

[computeruser]

Originally Posted by bigshot500

unless your living under a rock, this is a topic in very poor taste in light of what happened last week in Arizona with a nutjob and a 9mm.

Actually, it is in poor taste for its redundancy. We've been beating the 9mm v. X debate to death since the 1980s.

[Sully]

Originally Posted by kennyb

i carried a 92d beretta 9mm for a number of years as a duty weapon...never felt undergunned...keep in mind that beretta is what unseated the 45cal.from issued military sidearm after MANY years of use

What unseated the 45ACP from the grasp of the military...is that the 1911's they used were SHOT...worn out...should have been scrapped a decade prior...etc...etc. NOT the "greatness" of the 9mm parabellum.

[Sully]

Originally Posted by Jeff Lynch

I'll be the first to admit it. I've never owned anything but a 9mm handgun. I shot with a Beretta 92FS for several years but never liked the size of the grip. I currently shoot with an M&P 9c while all my friends are shooting 40's & 45's. I practice with Winchester 9mm Nato rounds (124g) and carry Winchester Supreme Elite Bonded PDX1 for self protection.

Does a 9mm round really have what it takes?

Never forget the old motto....".45 ACP....why shoot twice"........

[ACP230]

The answer is "Maybe." The same as it is with every other handgun round.

[firebirdude]

This question can't be asked without 4 pages of replies.

My opinion? Once any human being gets shot once, they back the F up. Even if they're on drugs, they'll slow down giving you time to put another one on em if need be.

[SMSgt]

Ask all those killed by the 9mm if it's effective. People have survived hits from .44 Mags, so...

[Just Shoot]

I don't think I would want to be on the recieving end of it....

[ImprovedModel56Fan]

Originally Posted by computeruser

Actually, it is in poor taste for its redundancy. We've been beating the 9mm v. X debate to death since the 1980s.

It's not v. X, it's v. .45ACP, and it's at least since the sixties, by my personal observation of the gun rags. It's probably actually much older than that, and just as useless. Some bullet shapes are better than others, and bigger is better than smaller, but which organ you hit exactly where is far more important. I'd rather bet my life on six shots somewhere in the chest with a .45ACP than same with a .22LR, even an HP, but "somewhere in the chest" is not something to count on, even if it probably works more often than not.

If you like the gun the 9mm bullets come out of, practice with it and don't "perseverate" on the caliber.

[Frailer]

It's been said before, but *all* handgun rounds are "ineffective." Nobody in their right mind would opt for a handgun if they expected to get in a gunfight. Given that, splitting hairs over which round or bullet style might be marginally more effective than another is just a wee bit silly.

The question then becomes which handgun can you carry easily (so you'll always have it with you--a gun in the safe is useless), shoot effectively, and be as close as possible to certain that it will go bang regardless of how scared or adrenalin-addled you may be.

I don't feel like spending all day every day with 2-3 pounds of gun on my belt, and I'm not willing to spend the weekly training hours that would be required to ensure I'd be able to *instinctively* clear malfunctions, so it's a wimpy .38 J frame for me.

Others' boats may be floated by something else, but my choice is right for *me*.

[Win75]

I have carried a 9mm for years for personal protection and as a LEO. I used Winchester Silver Tip HP's for a long time until the Hornady Critical Defense ammo came along. Now, that is all I carry.

[paragon1]

Originally Posted by jdesro1911

That is a great chart, Paragon1. Especially comparing the 9mm to the .40, there really seems to be an insignificant difference between the two under most circumstances. Even when you throw the .45 in the mix, the only thing you are gaining is a little more expansion diameter, with similar penetration (and more bullet weight, of course).

The most consistent performer was the 147 gr. Ranger-T through barriers like denim, heavy clothing, and sheetrock. 14" penetration, and .66 expansion throughout.

If you throw in hard barriers like glass, and steel, the Ranger-Bonded works better.

[Badkarma 1]

Here's a different approach, get a timer or stop watch and shoot a controlled pair (not a double tap) first with your 9mm then with your buddies .40 and .45, I'll bet you can shoot said 9mm a lot faster than you can the bigger calibers and they will too!
Like the other poster said:" It's all about shot placement!" And the 9mm works just fine thanks!
And as a bonus it's a heck of a lot cheaper to shoot thus it let's you practice more! And in that regard it's a winner! Dale

[4-Screw]

Originally Posted by Dragon88

This is a debate that will never reach a conclusion. All I will say is, shot placement is everything. Whatever you plan to defend yourself with, be it 25 ACP or 45 Auto, practice practice practice and know that you can place your shots correctly under enormous stress in a life threatening situation. The caliber becomes far less important at that point.

Exactly. A .22 is enough...ask any hit man.

[BikerRN]

Does a 9mm round really have what it takes?

Yes, but with a caveat.

That caveat being that the 9mm is very ammo dependant. There is much less margin for error in regards to proper bullet selection with the 9mm as opposed to the .40 S&W or .45 ACP.

Biker

[hazman]

look at the terrible things the 9mm did in tucson

[Checkman]

Carry quality hollowpoint ammo in a quality/reliable handgun. Then practice with it. Doesn't hurt to know the law in your state either. Enjoy.

[Chris A.]

9mm needs to be a HP to be effective. Federal, Speer, Cor-Bon all make good SD choices. From what I have read 115 gr. or 124 gr. is the best and you should stay away from 147 gr. (sorry, that's just what I have read from multiple sources).

[Steve C]

I have .45's but carry a 9mm most of the time. The 9 gives me more ammo and IMO is every bit as effective as the .45 acp with good self defense ammo like the Winchester you are carrying.

Before HP ammo big bullets give you better performance as it was the only way to make a bigger hole but in the current day the modern JHP's have made the difference insignificant. The 9mm has sufficient velocity to assure expansion even from short barreled handguns. The .45 acp is marginal in velocity required to open JHP's with bullets heavier than 200grs even from a 5" barrel and looses more as the gun size and barrel length decreases.

[paragon1]

Originally Posted by Chris A.

9mm needs to be a HP to be effective. Federal, Speer, Cor-Bon all make good SD choices. From what I have read 115 gr. or 124 gr. is the best and you should stay away from 147 gr. (sorry, that's just what I have read from multiple sources).

Your multiple sources would have been right 20 years ago. Not so much now.

[kennyb]

Originally Posted by Sully

What unseated the 45ACP from the grasp of the military...is that the 1911's they used were SHOT...worn out...should have been scrapped a decade prior...etc...etc. NOT the "greatness" of the 9mm parabellum.

i never said a word regarding the 9mm greatness...apparently you are not familar with the lengthy,involved tests conducted by the military regarding the new sidearm...had not a thing to do with a worn out 45...

[Hugh WW]

As a homicide cop of many years ago, I saw folks shot with about everything you can think of. In the morgue you get an up close and personal look at what bullets do and don't do. no two circumstances will ever be identicle, no two shots will ever always have the same effect on a human body. But you can be certain of one thing, if the shot placement is less than correct/lethal it will not have the desired effect. Carry what you are good with and practice with what you carry, have confidence in your ability. 9mm is an effective round with proper shot placement, but then, so are a lot of others. Best, Hugh

[Sully]

Originally Posted by hazman

look at the terrible things the 9mm did in tucson

The same tragedy could have taken place with a 22 auto or a 44 Bulldog. CALIBER had nothing to do with it.

[Sully]

Originally Posted by kennyb

i never said a word regarding the 9mm greatness...apparently you are not familar with the lengthy,involved tests conducted by the military regarding the new sidearm...had not a thing to do with a worn out 45...

Whats evident is that YOU dont know the condition that the 1911's were in. As far as accepting the (mm...the god old US of A wanted our troops to be stepping alongside other NATO troops as far as ammo goes. ( not weapons..but ammo)
#1 it CAN take many many years to get a weapon and its ammo approved for military use....and
#2..should someone be in the "right spot" they can get the same approved EXCEEDINGLY quickly.

Some organizations in the military have SCRAPPED the Beretta and its 9MM for 45 acp pistols built by..?? Ed Brown I think...or maybe it was a special run from Kimber.....cant remember exactly

[bogey3737]

9mm is easy and cheap to shoot...which increases your ability to develop a high level of proficiency...which increases your likelihood of placing the shot on the target.

You will seldom see a failure to stop by a 9mm that would have been a success with a .40 or .45. FAR more often you witness a failure to stop due to poor shot placement.

I've found a good way to stop others laughing at my 9mm is to compare targets.

[bogey3737]

Originally Posted by bigshot500

unless your living under a rock, this is a topic in very poor taste in light of what happened last week in Arizona with a nutjob and a 9mm.

This statement is asinine.

[Jeff Lynch]

Wow! Thanks for the input folks and I apologize for stirring up a hornet's nest. As I said in my question, it's been years since I last shot and carried a 92FS and much has changed since then. I enjoy shooting my new M&P 9c and will probably continue using a 9mm since ammo is both plentiful and relatively cheap here in Texas.

The choices in personal protection rounds these days are staggering for an old fart like me. When I began shooting a 9mm back in the 80's there were about five or six different choices in ammo. Today it seems like each manufacturer has at least five or six different 9mm rounds with various loads, styles and materials. It's tough to know what to use.

Thanks again for all the comments and answers!

[Chuck Jones]

Hackthorn saw it it like this:

For liability reasons it's best to use FMJ ball ammo and .45 ACP starts out at the diameter of 9mm once it's expanded so you can get 9mm hollow point performance with .45 ball.

I know times have changed a bit (maybe where you live) and LE commonly use hollow points, and some states have a castle doctrine laws. But I think Ken's reasoning still makes some sense.

I sure as hell don't want to be in the dock while a prosecutor trying to make a name for himself explains "dum dum" or "Rip & Tear" bullets to a jury of my "peers" (I was on a jury last week and there was more than one person I wouldn't exactly call a peer) complete with photos.

Anyway it's good to keep the "after the event" in mind when your planning for the defensive use of deadly force.

/c

[Chris A.]

IMO, why go with 147 gr. that has mixed results of effectiveness when the 115 or 124 gr. has less of a mix of results, especially in +P rounds if your pistol can handle them.

[StuperDan]

Originally Posted by bogey3737

9mm is easy and cheap to shoot...which increases your ability to develop a high level of proficiency...which increases your likelihood of placing the shot on the target.

Money for me is a factor here. I am new to shooting and am in the process of gaining the above mentioned skill and accuracy to be effective. 9mm means more practice ammo.

If all the most optimistic future projections are right, world peace & love will grow in the hearts of all and I never use my 9mm except for fun at the range and I save money.

If the more pessimistic are correct, inflation goes nuts, I save even more money.

And worst case, SHTF, law and order breaks down and zombies attack 9mm is the most common round in the world and will be the most common scrounged from the wreckage!

[kennyb]

Originally Posted by Sully

Whats evident is that YOU dont know the condition that the 1911's were in. As far as accepting the (mm...the god old US of A wanted our troops to be stepping alongside other NATO troops as far as ammo goes. ( not weapons..but ammo)
#1 it CAN take many many years to get a weapon and its ammo approved for military use....and
#2..should someone be in the "right spot" they can get the same approved EXCEEDINGLY quickly.

Some organizations in the military have SCRAPPED the Beretta and its 9MM for 45 acp pistols built by..?? Ed Brown I think...or maybe it was a special run from Kimber.....cant remember exactly

the condition of the 45's used in the military testing were like the 9mm and other calibers submitted by various companies...they were BRAND NEW...the testing extended over a long period of time
some special branches within the military from the very beginning shunned the 9mm and retained the 45 cal.
weather you like the 9mm or not doesn't have a thing to do with my original statement....they were and are the weapon tested and subsequently chosen for military use

[hazman]

Originally Posted by Sully

The same tragedy could have taken place with a 22 auto or a 44 Bulldog. CALIBER had nothing to do with it.

amen on that SULLY, my dad was on the "O.P.P" in toronto area in the late 40's . he told me alot of the of the officers carried .22's as "throw-aways".

[Sully]

Originally Posted by kennyb

the condition of the 45's used in the military testing were like the 9mm and other calibers submitted by various companies...they were BRAND NEW...the testing extended over a long period of time
some special branches within the military from the very beginning shunned the 9mm and retained the 45 cal.
weather you like the 9mm or not doesn't have a thing to do with my original statement....they were and are the weapon tested and subsequently chosen for military use

Put your head on straight for once! Im talking about the 1911's that the military HAD BEEN USING. Besides being "worn out"...they were 45 ACP caliber and "somebody in the govt" wanted our forces to be using the same ammo as other NATO country's were. ( remember the 7.62mm fiasco...so our M14's shot the same stuff as everyone elses???)

If everyone in NATO ( and other friendly armies..??) had been using 45ACP weapons...no way would we have adopted a 9MM.

It makes sense...that when you have **** ( worn out 1911's) and are looking at new pistols...why NOT pick one that uses the same ammo as "your buddies". That dont mean its the best...it just means everyone is on the same page. PERIOD

Your original posting.."i carried a 92d beretta 9mm for a number of years as a duty weapon...never felt undergunned...keep in mind that beretta is what unseated the 45cal.from issued military sidearm after MANY years of use"..

Had it said that the beretta design had unseated the 1911 Colt design weapon....then sure.. BUT..it smacked of saying the beretta WITH ITS 9MM CARTRIDGE is what unseated the 45AMP from the military.

[walnutred]

NATO adopted 9x19 over 45 ACP NOT because the firearms or ammo was superior but because of availability. Most of our European allies were broke when NATO was formed. It seemed foolish to tool up and start manufacturing 45 ACP ammo when there were millions of round of German made 9x19 sitting in warehouses. During the big build-up prior to WW2 was a time most countries were reviewing lessons learned in WW1 and reevaluating all weapons systems. How many countries adopted 9x19? That should tell you what they really thought of the round.

Post war they had all that surplus ammo, surplus German firearms and in some cases surplus German manufacturing machinery, so 9x19 made sense. Plus I think it really IS better than 45 in a sub machine gun.