This may sound retarded.... but I was wondering what ammo would give me the most stopping power... while causing the least amount of damage to someone? It would seem to me that any hollow point/frag ammo are going to cause MAJOR damage to someone. I'm not looking to kill anyone, even someone trying to kill me. Just looking to stop the threat and defend myself.

There are two things that equate to "stopping power": shot placement and penetration. So, assuming that you are hitting your target in a vital area, any modern HP bullet will do its job. Ball ammo is less than effective because of the size of the wound. Frankly, I always thought that if it were necessary to shoot at someone to stop them from doing something in my own defense, I need to place the shot well and do enough damage. In that case, I need to be prepared to have that person die.

Harsh but true.

You probably shouldn't be carrying a firearm then with that mentality, just call 911. Firing a gun at another person is deadly force however you look at it, and you can't shoot someone "just a little bit".

This is completely nonsensical. You stop a threat with a handgun by causing massive, rapid trauma and blood loss to critical organs or the central nervous system. While no one should ever fire defensively with the intent to kill or maim, legally we must only fire with the intent to stop a threat, it is no secret what bullets do to a human body and what "good shot placement" means.

This is why I prefaced this post with "This may sound retarded."

As far as you calling out my right to carry a firearm, explain your theory to the judge when you're on trial for excessive force/murder. There's a fine line to be walked there. Maybe every time a police officer fires their pistol, they're shooting to kill?

Thank you for the insightful post Chris.

There is a fine line, but that line doesn't include being afraid to use your gun to the appropriate extent when fully justified. There is never a situation where you can shoot someone "just a little". Also, a gun being carried by someone who is afraid to use it can quickly wind up in the hands of the attacker and be used against them or other innocents.

My own personal opinion is that I would want to use a caliber and load that will have the maximum effect, in a package that I can easily control and accurately shoot.

The goal in any lawful shooting (whether you are a civilian or a cop) is to make the person stop doing what got them shot in the first place. If you specifically choose a load that is likely to have less effect, then you are increasing the chance that the agression can/will continue beyond the initial hit(s) -- which may mean you might have to keep shooting. And since you are responsible for every round you fire, and your odds of a miss go up with every shot, the chance that you'll hit something you didnt intend to hit also goes up if you have to keep shooting because the threat wont stop.

Now, if that lawful shooting resulted in the badguy dying then so be it. At least I am alive and well to explain the situation.

But, to get to the root of your initial question -- any 9mm round will kill depending on what it hits on the way through. You could use what many might call a fairly ineffective round, the full metal jacket, and it could be deflected by a rib and sever the aorta. Dead badguy. Or you could use an extremely effective round, the Winchester 127gr +P+ Ranger-T and only get a through-and-through in the guys flank and have him require nothing more than 3 stitches on each side to close the holes. No dead badguy -- but YOU get to endure 6 months of occupational and speech therapy because you only pissed him off by shooting him and he beat you to unconsciousness and left you for dead (or maybe worse, he did that to your wife and 12 year old son).

Your choice.

I'd say that a modern hollow point bullet is slightly more likely to stop the threat with fewer shots fired than ball. Fewer wounds to treat may give a slightly better chance for the person to survive.

Reposted from another board.

This is from Dr. Gary Roberts, one of the most prominent and well respected ballisticians in the country.

Note the summation at the end (keys).


The following loads all demonstrate outstanding terminal performance and can be considered acceptable for duty/self-defense use:

9 mm:
Barnes XPB 105 & 115 gr JHP (copper bullet)
Federal Tactical 124 gr JHP (LE9T1)
Speer Gold Dot 124 gr +P JHP (53617)
Winchester Ranger-T 124 gr +P JHP (RA9124TP)
Winchester Partition Gold 124 gr JHP (RA91P)
Winchester Ranger-T 127 gr +P+ JHP (RA9TA)
Federal Tactical 135 gr +P JHP (LE9T5)
Federal HST 147 gr JHP (P9HST2)
Remington Golden Saber 147 gr JHP (GS9MMC)
Speer Gold Dot 147 gr JHP (53619)
Winchester Ranger-T 147 gr JHP (RA9T)
Speer Gold Dot 124 +p

.40 S&W:
Barnes XPB 140 & 155 gr JHP (copper bullet)
Speer Gold Dot 155 gr JHP (53961)
Federal Tactical 165 gr JHP (LE40T3)
Winchester Ranger-T 165 gr JHP (RA40TA)
Winchester Partition Gold 165 gr JHP (RA401P)
Federal HST 180 gr JHP (P40HST1)
Federal Tactical 180 gr JHP (LE40T1)
Remington Golden Saber 180 gr JHP (GS40SWB)
Speer Gold Dot 180 gr JHP (53966)
Winchester Ranger-T 180 gr JHP (RA40T)

.45 ACP:
Barnes XPB 185 gr JHP (copper bullet)
Federal HST 230 gr +P JHP (P45HST1)
Federal Tactical 230 gr JHP (LE45T1)
Speer Gold Dot 230 gr JHP (23966)
Winchester Ranger-T 230 gr JHP (RA45T)
Winchester Ranger-T 230 gr +P JHP (RA45TP)

Notes:
-- Obviously, clone loads using the same bullet at the same velocity work equally well (ie. Black Hills ammo using Gold Dot bullets, etc…)

Keeping in mind that handguns generally offer poor incapacitation potential, bullets with effective terminal performance are available in all of the most commonly used duty pistol calibers--pick the one that you shoot most accurately, that is most reliable in the type of pistol you choose, and best suits your likely engagement scenarios. Whatever you choose, make sure you fire at least 500 and preferably 1000 failure free shots through your pistol prior to using it for duty. If your pistol cannot fire at least 1000 consecutive shots without a malfunction, something is wrong and it is not suitable for duty/self-defense use.

The keys are:

Invest in competent, thorough initial training and then maintain skills with regular ongoing practice

Acquire a reliable and durable weapon system

Purchase a consistent, robust performing duty/self-defense load in sufficient quantities (at least 1000 rounds) then STOP worrying about the nuances of handgun ammunition terminal performance.

Massad Ayoob had even given a yes nod to these rounds.

Here is a link to a LOT of information that will help you in your hunt for the right round. This link also has information for many other caliber rounds I do highly recommend taking a look at the information.
Factory chrono data

Rick

I notice an acute lack of the Federal EFMJ round in any of the listed calibers. I live in a state where Neandrathals govern and any/all hollowpoint ammunition is banned for civilian consumption (including retired LEO's). Any thoughts?

Capt.
In regards to NJ's horrible rules. You may use hollowpoint projectiles in your home and or business. You may not use hollowpoint projectiles whilst carying a weapon. The NJSP and AG have approved three rounds acceptable and not violating their " dumb dumb/hollowpoint/expanding " ban. The Corbon PowRBall, the Hornady Critical Defence, and a third which escapes me. It may very well be the Federal expanding ball but I am not certain so I have to review the e-mail from the NJSP where I garnered this information. I hope this helps you.
If anyone disputes the information or begins to question the particular projectiles please, dont trust me. Contact NJSP or the NJ AG's office and seek out the information as they will provide it.

Anytime you shoot at someone, you are using deadly force. A bullet to the leg can cut an artery and result in death just as surely as one to the heart. If you're not willing to accept that the person may die from his wounds, you need to rethink whether you are ready to use a firearm to defend yourself. Sorry to be so blunt, but shooting someone is not television/movies.

I was in the very same spot your are about 1 ½ years ago when I turned in a local gang that cooks and deals meth. They threatened to kill me. Since then I have got my CPL (some places call it a CCW) have taken over 40 hours in training using a hand gun in self defense and the “legal use of deadly force” Taught be retired police, FBI and “Lethal Force Shooting Attorneys” (this is on top of all my years of training while in the Army)

I would like to offer a few links with legal information, it comes close to saying some of the same things that another poster wrote but in a less provocative form.
In a “Legal” Lethal Force Shooting you will be asked “What were your intentions when firing your weapon?” If you saying anything less than “trying to stop the attack that threatened my life.” You may go to prison.

You are not allowed to shoot and wing or shoot to slow down or wound to stop........so on.

Training is key & paramount in this subject. Even having a home load (re-load) or having a trigger job done on your gun “WILL” complicate the shooting! Read some of Massad’ books. There is one case of a police officer having to go through three trials over as many years just because he used a reload in his gun. I can’t remember if he was on or off duty or with his duty weapon.

Once a person starts to become educated (at least familiarized) with the law you will start to feel the weight of responsibility of charring a weapon for protection. The state is giving you the responsibility of having the proper knowledge of knowing right from wrong and when it is legal to take another persons life. A decision that has to be made in a split second and you have to have the knowledge before hand to make that decision.

The Three Most Common Post-Shooting Errors (This interview with Massad Ayoob first appeared in the Network's February 2008 journal)
The Three Most Common Post-Shooting Errors

Ability, Opportunity, Manifest Intent, and Preclusion
Lethal Force


In the end I use the “Speer Gold Dot 124gr +P JHP (53617)” I carry a XDM 9mm 4.5” (20round) & a XDM 9mm 3.8” (20 round) and two extra mags filled with the Gold Dot for a total of 78 rounds.

What I lack in caliber is made up in volume and having almost no kick.

Why a 9mm? There also have been MANY cases of an individual using a 44 mag in a legal self defense shooting and the case becoming complicated because the Defense Attorney claimed the use of excessive by shooting with a 44 mag. Such a large caliber weapon. My Lethal force attorney emphasizes that if an individual sticks to using what is authorized for a policeman to use by society they are farther down the road of having a less complicated shooting case. There is a plethora of information on these subjects on the internet and what I found out is that it is very important to document training and try to obtain more than 120 hours in classroom training while beforehand having an attorney on retainer as to keep your information current. As I do.

If anyone wants information PM me, I am in no way benefiting from this info I give out. I just find it valuable and would not carry without first knowing it.


(Note: please forgive my spelling errors)

Rick

Sir,
Thank you for answering the question as I had no information of what state would have such a law, I was guessing New York. Some law makers slay me! No pun intended, well I guess there is. Some places they are more concerned about the safety and wellbeing of the perpetrator than the victims.

Handgun "stopping power" is a myth.

The only way you can "stop" an assailant immediately is to damage the central nervous system. No other hit is guaranteed to produce immediate results, no matter how severe the trauma is.

Placement and penetration are what produces damage to the CNS. The choice of bullet is relatively unimportant, providing it has enough penetration to reach the CNS.

Rick:
I don't see my 9BPLE Federal +P+ on the list. Should I throw it out?
Ed

Ed, only if it's at a target or in self-defense !

I am really only passing on the information from my research as I have to leave it up the pros to do the Research & development. After that I just use my best judgment, practice and knowledge gleaned from other old timers (and availability of ammo) to make my decisions.

What is on the list is what Dr. Gary Roberts put on the list and what Ayoob agreed with, I’m not sure what the pool of ammo was to choose from.

But... By all means if you like the round and feel there is good performance and are willing to post the statistics and velocities of the round please do so.

I feel we all can learn from what others have proven in the field. I’m new to the 9mm hand gun; I am a 3 ½” 12 gauge and an Ar15 sort of guy. (Would be M16A1 but I don’t have a FFL)

While living on a homestead in Alaska I was partial to my Browning 3 ½” 10 gauge with a 766 grain slug.

What do you mean by "complicated"??? And if your statement is to imply that people have been convicted, who would have otherwise 'not' been convicted simply because of the caliber of gun they used, please provide citations to specific cases because I would love to review them.

You can argue issues like this all day long. Does a single 10mm round that kills a badguy out of a Glock (which holds 16 rounds) cause you more concern in court than a single 10mm round out of a 6-shot revolver because the revolver supposedly isnt this super-killer military-style killing weapon that the Glock is? Does grandma who wax's a tweaker coming through her window with grandpa's 20 gauge have more to worry about in court than the guy down the street who shot a mugger using exactly the same 9mm gun and ammo the local PD carries? But what if the local PD issues Ranger-T ammo... *gasp* then surely if a mere civilian uses it that must be a sign of pre-meditation because they specifically chose that super-killer load in the hopes they could fill their blood thirst this month.

The issue is your jeopardy and your actions, not your tool. If a baseball bat is all you have to defend youself with, then are you going to sweat over whether it is wood or aluminum just because a jury might think you're more evil by selecting one over the other?

Whooooooo big boy! Check your Prozac!
I am not going to be drug into your world of fights and arguments. I had simply repeated what was told to be by an attorney ABOUT REAL CASE LAW (are you an attorney if not shut up!) And I repeated what I read in books from REAL cases. I used this infor to make "MY OWN" decision on what gun & Cal for "ME" to buy and use. I sugest you do as you wish for yourself. That is why God gave us a brain. (oh darn! now he's going to argue the existence or not of God!) Go argue with someone els, if you disagree with what I wrote move on. Bye!

I taught Use of Force at a regional police academy. There is no such thing as shoot to kill or shoot to wound. The only time a police officer is justified to use deadly force is when they have no other option to make a subject(s) cease their actions, such actions that have, or may be reasonable to assume will, cause death or serious injury to the officer or another person.

The officer doesn't have to be hit over the head with a baseball bat to know that such action will cause death or serious injury, he/she can take whatever actions, including deadly force, are necessary to compel/force the subject to cease their actions. If the subject dies as a result of the officer's actions, that it a consequence, not an intended result, of the officer's use of deadly force.

There have been cases, described by Mas Ayoob and others, questioning the type of weapon used in a deadly encounter, and in one case in particular, an individual was convicted based on the weapon he used to defend himself, i.e. intent to cause death/bodily injury due to the "stopping power" of the weapon.

I have always advocated to use what the police use. There are plenty of good weapons and ammunition that will be sufficient for self/home defense. It is difficult for a prosecutor to show "evil intent" when you are carrying the same weapon and load that the FBI, Secret Service, local sheriff, police, etc., carry.

Big boy? Prozac? World of fights and arguements? Shut up? Argue God? Move on?

Geez, if thats how you react to debate on an online forum (as a new member, no less) then it would seem that "I" am not the one living in a "world of fights and arguements."

I have had lots of great exchanges with folks on here and I've never gotten sideways with anybody so I sure dont know where that reaction came from. I wasnt 'intending' to get sideways with you either... just demonstrating that not every opinion (whether from an attorney or not) is necessarily a valid one.

I was sincere in my question about actual court cases. If you have any to point us to, please do. If you cant or wont, then I would recommend using discretion when referencing such things, rather than describing there being "MANY cases."

It must be a Monday for some people!

Again, I would to ask for clarification. In the instance that you referenced, what was the actual charge (or charges) based on the weapon itself that the person was convicted on?

If the shooting is justified and you can demonstrate that in court, the type of weapon (as long as its a lawful weapon to possess and use) is of no consequence to the posecution of the case.

If you're talking about a switch-blade or a sawed off shotgun, or a handgun with the serial number scratched off, or some ammo you made yourself by pouring mercury into the hollow point... or if you've demonstrated a history of poor decisions like pipe-bomb making, etc., then you might have an awful time with your defense in killing someone.

But if you're attacked in your home and you shoot and kill a guy who had the intent, means and opportunity to kill you or do great bodily harm to you -- and the gun and ammunition you used were legal to possess and use -- and you dont have a history of nutty activity related to weapons -- then unless you've got a completely retarded attorney, you arent going to have to worry about spending time in prison just because you chose a .44mag rather than a 9mm.

I've personally been a party to a handful of court cases involving shootings, and I've reviewed testimony and evidence in quite a few others... and I have spent a lot of time in courtrooms on non-shooting weapons related cases, and I have never personally seen the type of weapon become an issue unless it was an illegal weapon or unless the individual had some questionable weapons related history that was relevant.

And in cases where this is purported to be the case, I would venture that there are circumstances or evidence which cause complications beyond the simple choice of caliber or ammuniton.

My questions have been resolved. Thank you to all. Please feel free to lock this topic, as I think it has run its course.

nebmike,
The case is from 2004 in Arizona involving Harold Fish. Fish, a retired school teacher was convicted for killing a homeless man with a history of mental instability who attacked him while hiking on a remote trail. During the jury trial, the prosecutor stressed Fish overreacted through choosing to use the increased stopping power of 10 mm hollow point bullets. Fish was convicted of second degree murder and sentenced to 10 years.
In 2009, the State Appellate Court overturned the conviction and ordered a new trial. Fish was released after serving 3 years, and the prosecutor stated he would not seek a re-trial.
While there are many facets to this case, it does show that juries can be negatively influenced, particularly when the defendant is carrying something considered "unique."

Thanks for that... I'll definitely be doing a little research on that one.

I think there has got to be more to the original conviction than just the simple fact he chose a 10mm. The question to the jury would have been, at least partially, did the death result from a criminal act of the defendant? If they cant answer that question in the afirmative then they cant find the defendant guilty on that charge. So, there must have been something there for the first jury beyond his choice of caliber. There must have been some thought on the part of the prosecution or the grand jury that some crime(s) had been committed or they would have never indicted the guy... you cant file charges just based on gun choice or caliber if both were legal for possession and use where the shooting happened. That choice is not, in itself, indicative of a crime.

Certainly arguements like caliber / ammo type could come up, and thats why you have to have a knowledgable attorney who can redivert the attention of the jury away from a non-issue back to the substantial facts of the case. The jury is made up of people, and those people can make flawed decisions. So anything is possible. But I would submit that the overwhelming majority of self-defesnse shootings that happen in this country (and there has been a few ) happen by actors who used guns and ammunition far different than what their local (or any) cops carry... and these types of fluke convictions are just not rampant in the system.

Just two nights ago on the Denver news here in Colorado was a story about a guy who shot and killed a teenager who was one of 2-3 kids who broke into his house in the middle of the night. He fired two shots -- the second struck the teen in the head and killed him on the spot. Gun - Taurus Judge, loaded with .410 buckshot. You just about cant get a situation that is more ripe for "evil" gun and/or ammo choice arguements... but it never happened. The self-defense was clear cut and the man was never charged.

I think, from my perspective, the whole point to what I've said is that "IF" it does happen it would be an incredibly unusual circumstance -- especially when you compare the purported cases to the total number of self defense shootings. And beyond that, since each of us is liable for every bullet we send downrange, we need to be prepared for finding ourselves in court regardless of our gun/ammo choice. Part of that preparation is having a lucid and reasonable arguement for the choices you made, whether you get to articulate those yourself to the jury or whether you have an attorney do the talking for you.

If you get on the stand and say, "I chose a 10mm (which happens to actually be what I carry) becuase I knew it would kill better than anything else" -- well, then you've probably hot a HUGE problem on your hands.

Again, thanks for the cite.

Thanks again for the reference! I've read three separate sources on this case now (including the appeals court ruling)and I will preface my comments by saying that I wasnt there in the courtroom, nor was I there when the shooting took place, so I am not passing any sort of judgement on whether or not Mr. Fish was justified. The case was obviously overturned on appeal so in my eyes he has now been vindicated.

That said, there were a LOT of issues to this case that went way beyond the one detail of the caliber he chose to use, which probably influenced the jury far more. There were anger issues (self-admitted by him - see my comments below about making statements), timeline issues, warning shots, wounds inconsitent with how he described the attackers posture, potential jury instruction issues, etc., etc., that go way beyond his choice of using a 10mm.

But regarding the gun and ammo, the appeals decision says:

"...the issue was not whether the type of weapon used was relevant for purposes of self-defense, but whether a different individual could testify why that witness might carry a gun and the court found that such evidence was not admissible."

and:

"Here, the State’s use of the evidence was not to show prior bad acts, but to show the power of the weapons and ammunition relevant at a minimum to show whether Defendant was objectively reasonable under the circumstances in firing several shots at close range into the Victim’s chest."

And most tellingly:

"Ultimately, the most recent evidence was Defendant’s knowledge that the gun he used was one of the more powerful guns he owned and that he had been recommended by a gun shop to use hollow point bullets for self-defense because they were more powerful." ...which all came about as part of his grand jury testimony.

And also:

"...Defendant objected to admission of his grand jury testimony as to the legal issues of aiming at a person’s arms or legs could create legal problems because the person might sue the shooter...The State argued that the testimony should be admitted because it went to Defendant’s state of mind when he shot the Victim...The issue was what the Defendant was taught in his self-defense training as to why he should shoot at center mass."

This quote by Mr. Fish was also admitted as part of the evidence:

"So I didn’t ask for an attorney. I didn’t, you know, shut up. I didn’t mislead them. I said, I’m going to cooperate fully and completely with you. I think it’s my duty and obligation to account for my actions..."

THAT, my friends is why you dont make statements without an attorney!!! That part in the Miranda Warning about "ANYTHING you say can and will be used against you" is there for a reason and we should all take heed! Those are exactly the types of statements that you shouldnt be making after you shoot somebody!!! If he hadnt made such statements, it would have been very difficult or impossible for the prosecutor to introduce the topic in court.

It clearly appears to me like he brought the whole caliber and ammo selection issue up on his own and the prosecutor ran with it.

For those who havent seen this video, I strongly recommend it...

YouTube - Dont Talk to Police

And if the title causes you to pause -- I'm not cop bashing, because I 'was' a cop and I remain a very strong supporter. I think everyone who carries a gun should watch this video!

Check out the video..

http://media.concealedcarryforum.com/haroldfish.wmv

Interesting video. The very last note was also interesting. Innocent until proven guilty says it should have been like before this case...

seems I remember Mas Ayoob caution about the 124gr fmj Nato load used by NYPD very much 'over-penetrating'. when the wonder 9's were the vogue with LEO's