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  #1  
Old 02-18-2011, 06:14 PM
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Default 41 Magnum & 44 Special

I am curious as to how these two cartridges compare for self defense purposes.

The 44 Special standard SD load appears to be 180 or 200 grains and the same type load for 41 Magnum looks to be 210 grain.

Both the velocity and energy seem to be greater with the 41 Magnum in comparable 44 Special loads.

It doesn't look like either caliber has a large amount of factory made self defense ammunition available but the 41 Magnum has a healthy contingent of hunting ammunition. I'm wonderig if those hunting loads would be a good candidate for SD.

How does the felt recoil match up between the two with similar size/weight firearms? I've never shot either.

I'd love to hear from you guys about your experiences and opinions on these rounds and how they match up against each other for SD purposes.
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Old 02-18-2011, 06:32 PM
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I often use 44 sp loading data for the 41. Obviously you can load the 41 much hotter, but why? Most of my 41 loads are in the 44 sp range. For SD, I prefer factory and have Silvertips in both calibers.
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Old 02-18-2011, 06:57 PM
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I am a .44 special guy. I did have one .41 mag in a ruger blackhawk when they first came out. One day I and my friend compared my .41 to his heavier .44 mag in a SBH. My lighter barrel whipped more and you could feel more recoil in it than in his heavier .44 mag.
When smith first came out with the .41 mag they also came out with a milder police load for it.
Okay. It`s like this. For a self defense load both the .41 and the .44 special are more than enough by far. So now it comes down to the guns made for them. I suppose smith might have made a mountain gun for the .41 mag by now, but I have never seen one. If they did they must be rare. So! Except for that one gun IF you can find one, I like the s&w .44 specials. They all have the pencil, or tapered barrel. I think all the other models in .41 mag have the straight heavy barrel. In comparing my specials against my model 29 or 25-5 with the straight heavy barrels, their is a big differance in weight and portability. Thats why I like my .44 specials. Here are my .44 specials.


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Old 02-18-2011, 09:27 PM
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Sorry, Feral.... the rules say you can't post a photo like that without telling us details about the top two guns. 3rd models? Postwar transition or prewar? This is important, more so than the thread.

OH, the OP. 41s have pretty much penetration for SD. Probably more than even a 44 mag. There is only a minor difference in recoil between them. Many of us just use specials in our 29s. Loading down M57s and M58s makes them much more pleasant to fire.
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Old 02-18-2011, 09:37 PM
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One thing that you can look up is the .41 Special. It is a simple wildcat that John Taffin really did alot of research on, and I have been taking up the torch of pestering the ammo companies to try and get them to do something with. If loaded right, you can get pretty good results out of it, which puts it ahead of even the .44 Special. The .41 Special with a 210 grain JHP at 900 fps walks all over the factory loaded .44 Special. It can be argued that the .44 Special is a heavier bullet, but the diameter is only slighter larger at .429. The .41 Special has very little recoil, is very accurate from every gun I have ever shot it out of and would make a fantastic defense round. I have done alot of shooting with the .44 Special as well having both Smith 24's and a 624, and to me the outright best load for everything was the cast Lyman #429421 250 grain bullet and 7.5 grains of Unique. But to me the .41 Magnum is really the all around king if you know how to load for it and are willing to work with it. If the .41 Special were realized, and someone were to produce it commercially, than you would have alot more .41's being taken out to the range and carried for personal defense.
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Old 02-18-2011, 11:01 PM
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Okay dick. The top left started life as a 4" HD that I bought real cheap, but prior to that I had picked up just the barrel off a model 21 (.44 special) at a gun show about 7 years prior and was waiting for a cheap HD to show up. It did and I had my gunsmith just screw the barrel in and rechamber the clyinder.
The top right I bought that way. A triplelock that someone sent back to the factory in 1949 and again in 1950 and had them put on modern day target sights.
That 7 1/2" colt saa started life in 1906 and was a 4 3/4" 44 wcf and sent to the copper queen mine, bisbee arizona. Old gun writer Tommy Bish along with Al Capone that owned King gun works in Los Angles converted it to .44 special. My old friend and mentor "Duke" duvall was capones brother in law and also did most of the polishing at the shop for his extra gun money, bought it from bish and sold it to me around 1970.
The rest are honest guns. Duke also sold me the 6 1/2" 1950 target, and regetably, I misplaced the original grips, and put on the cokes off my 29-2. The 4 3/4" colt I bought new around 1983, the 24-3 4" I also bought new years ago. FM
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Old 02-23-2011, 11:50 AM
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Didn't Elmer Keith push the development and manufacture of the 41mag and later the 44mag too?
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Old 02-23-2011, 03:41 PM
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"Survival Guns" by Mel Tappan is somewhat dated by now, but does have an interesting discussion of "comparative stopping power". Tappan's calculation uses bullet weight in grains x muzzle velocity x sectional area of the bore, moving the decimal three places to the left for convenience:
.41 Magnum 210 x 1050 x .126 = 27.73
.44 Special 246 x 755 x .146 = 27.11
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Old 02-23-2011, 06:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dosgatos View Post
"Survival Guns" by Mel Tappan is somewhat dated by now, but does have an interesting discussion of "comparative stopping power". Tappan's calculation uses bullet weight in grains x muzzle velocity x sectional area of the bore, moving the decimal three places to the left for convenience:
.41 Magnum 210 x 1050 x .126 = 27.73
.44 Special 246 x 755 x .146 = 27.11
This appears to be the lead cast specs or close to them on the 41mag? The federal and cor-con specs are much higher on the jacketed bullets/ammo they manufacture for the 41mag. Bill
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Old 02-23-2011, 06:55 PM
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Quote:
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This appears to be the lead cast specs or close to them on the 41mag? The federal and cor-con specs are much higher on the jacketed bullets/ammo they manufacture for the 41mag. Bill
Tappan's Book is over 20 years old, and so is the ammo data. His formula for stopping power is easy, though.
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Old 02-23-2011, 07:13 PM
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Most of the .44 Special ammo is loaded fairly light, I'm guessing for all the older guns still out there. Some of the speciality brands like CorBon or Buffalo Brand might be hotter, and the 44 special does offer more varity. The .41 mag seems to be more for a hunting round with the loads and guns out there, but either should do the job just fine. If you don't have the gun yet I would consider a .44mag, then you have a lot more options as far as loads.
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Old 02-23-2011, 09:12 PM
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Quote:
Didn't Elmer Keith push the development and manufacture of the 41mag and later the 44mag too?
Elmer Keith pushed the 44 mag until its first factory production in 1955 if I recall correctly. He pushed the 41 mag as the ideal police round and the factories began producing it in 1962 or 1964.
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Old 02-23-2011, 09:23 PM
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I like the 41 mag. I like it in my 58 and my 5.5 inch Ruger Redhawk.
You ain't gonna find ammo at WalMart, but most any well stocked LGS has something on the shelves you can feed it with. Scouring the internet will result in finding loads similar to the "police load" or some screaming hunting rounds.
It is a great handloading cartridge, bullets from 170 to 300 grains can be found...and a wide variety of powders will push it to whatever limit you and your gun can stand.
I like it, and many of us do.....to some it is obsolete, or maybe never should have been developed...but it is fun to shoot, accurate and hard hitting loaded right...what else do you need in a handgun round??
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Old 03-02-2011, 06:31 PM
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I put a .41 jacketed SWC thru the thick steel fender of an old '50s junker and the bullet disappeared into the block. I guess that would be enough penetration for SD.
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Old 03-03-2011, 02:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackSky View Post
It doesn't look like either caliber has a large amount of factory made self defense ammunition available .
I've just ordered my first .44 Special and I'm finding that there are lots of interesting loads that might be used for SD, such as the WW Silvertip or the Speer GoldDot in the 180-200 grain range. You have to go the the major suppliers online to find them though, and even then they may be on back-order.
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Old 02-01-2013, 02:36 AM
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While this is an old thread, I know exactly what you want. The very best load for your .41 Magnum is a 210-grain SWCHP leaving a either a 4" Model 57 (or Model 58) at about 1000 fps. It is imperative that you load a relatively soft lead slug so that you can obtain some expansion. This was what Elmer Keith envisioned when he engineered the cartridge.

Penetration, expansion and an initial projectile diameter of .410"... What's not to like?

Scott
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Old 02-01-2013, 03:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry from Bend View Post
I've just ordered my first .44 Special and I'm finding that there are lots of interesting loads that might be used for SD, such as the WW Silvertip or the Speer GoldDot in the 180-200 grain range. You have to go the the major suppliers online to find them though, and even then they may be on back-order.
You can not go wrong with speer gold ( in mine) or silvertips ( what I used before gold dots) or CCI's "flying ashtray" was always reported to be a good load. Be Safe,
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Old 02-01-2013, 05:00 AM
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Quote:
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I am curious as to how these two cartridges compare for self defense purposes.

The 44 Special standard SD load appears to be 180 or 200 grains and the same type load for 41 Magnum looks to be 210 grain.

Both the velocity and energy seem to be greater with the 41 Magnum in comparable 44 Special loads.

It doesn't look like either caliber has a large amount of factory made self defense ammunition available but the 41 Magnum has a healthy contingent of hunting ammunition. I'm wonderig if those hunting loads would be a good candidate for SD.

How does the felt recoil match up between the two with similar size/weight firearms? I've never shot either.

I'd love to hear from you guys about your experiences and opinions on these rounds and how they match up against each other for SD purposes.
There is a lot more SD .44 Special ammo out there than you think. Hornady has 2 Critical Defense loads, Speer has a SD load using a Gold Dot bullet, Winchester has a Silvertip SD load, Cor-Bon has several loads as does Buffalo Bore. There are a lot of SD ammo choices for the 44 Special out there.

While you are correct about the 41 Magnum having a lot of hunting bullets many of those loads can be used for SD too. The 175gr Silvertip load would make a fine SD load. Buffalo Bore and Cor-Bon both make dedicated SD loads in 41 Magnum too.

I wouldn't allow ammo to block you from carrying either. I would carry the one you can shoot best and the one you can make a quick and accurate followup shot with.
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Old 02-01-2013, 05:06 AM
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I use the 200 gr Silvertips in 44 special and I find them to be incredibly accurate. I have three S&W model 21's and the results are the same for all three. I usually order them online from midwayusa.com
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Old 02-01-2013, 09:00 AM
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Most .41 mag ammo is either hard-cast SWCs or hi-vel heavily constructed , controlled expansion JHP/JSPs designed for big game.

For defense against two-legged nasties , Winchester makes a 175gr Silvertip at somewhat less then max velocity.
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Old 02-01-2013, 09:35 AM
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I love it when these old threads come back to see us. Especially when they are about the .41.
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Old 02-01-2013, 03:38 PM
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If you don't reload, I think the light recoil of the winchester 175gr silvertip HP load would be a great SD load, when it can get +/- 1200 fps out of a 3" barrel S&W............

other wise a 210 gr LHP at around 1,000 fps would be a nice
SD load, 466 ft/lbs of energy is nothing to sneeze at, when the little 38 158 +P only kicks out 278 ft/lbs of energy.

A friend lets me shoot his at the range,now and then..........
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Old 02-01-2013, 04:44 PM
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I have fallen in love with 44 special, it is an extremely versatile round. You can load mouse fart to holy terror loads. I load everything from 180 grain fmj's to 300 grain hard cast loads. All are efficient
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Old 02-01-2013, 06:26 PM
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Like some others here I too wish that someone would bring the .41 SPL out of wildcat status. It would also be nice if there were some nice swaged LSWC-HP available in .410" as well. As they say it's nice to wish.
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Old 02-01-2013, 10:28 PM
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Like some others here I too wish that someone would bring the .41 SPL out of wildcat status. It would also be nice if there were some nice swaged LSWC-HP available in .410" as well. As they say it's nice to wish.
Here's your answer. It has been done.

41 Special - Reed's Ammunition & Research, LLC

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Old 02-01-2013, 11:02 PM
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Default At the end of the day. Or at the end of the shoot out.

Whatever the case may be. If you have gotten a good hit on a bad guy with a .44 Remington Special round with a good bullet. Or you have gotten a good hit on a bad guy with a .41 Remington magnum round with a good bullet.

I do not really see where either one of these perps is going to cause you any problems at this point. This kind of reminds me of a six of one, half dozen of another type of situation.

what do I know? You really need to make your own judgements.
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Old 02-01-2013, 11:37 PM
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The 44 special and the 41 magnum comparison is kind of an apples to oranges thing.

The 41 is a full house magnum load whose best comparison would be the 44 mag.

The 44 specials closest comparison would probably be the 45 ACP in terms of bullet weights and velocities.

Compare a 210 grain offering in each. The Lyman 49th edition lists 210 grain bullets in both:

44 special max at 905 fps

41 mag max at 1,473 fps

Either would be a good defensive load. Both are going to be expensive to feed unless you reload.

Recoil is subjective...everyone feels it differently. Some swear the 44 mag is a raging beast but my kid has been shooting full house magnum loads through it since he was 10. It's all in the mind really.
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Old 02-01-2013, 11:41 PM
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The most accurate, most powerful handgun I ever owned and shot was a Ruger 6-1/2" Blackhawk in .41 Mag. I've never had a handgun more accurate, and I could reload as heavy or light as I chose. It was more accurate than my buddy's Super BH .44 Mag and much less recoil. I put my jacketed SWCs thru the same trees his .44 did.

I've never shot a .44 Spec, but for defense work, I wouldn't hesitate to use one.
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Old 02-01-2013, 11:53 PM
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I use a 210gr lead SWC over 9gr of Unique out of my 57 Mountain gun and it is very accurate and recoil is not bad at all. I love the .41 Mag! I have never had a .44 Special or Mag for that matter. A friend of mine turned me onto the .41 years ago and it quickly became my favorite cartridge. I can load them light or heavy, very versatile.
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Old 02-02-2013, 01:51 AM
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Both calibers are great, but I have finally come to the conclusion that PENETRATION IS YOUR FRIEND! Exanguination is the VERY best bet to "stop the action." If you can "tear someone up" terribly and they bleed out, you're ahead of the game.

Several shots in the upper thoracic cavity will generally cause sufficient blood loss to cause the victim to become hypertensive (suffer from low blood pressure.) Death should follow reasonably soon. If one can puncture some vital organs, the onset of shock, and loss of blood pressure should ensue in between 15 and 180 seconds, depending on how many blood vessels have been ruptured.

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Old 02-02-2013, 08:32 AM
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I would have to look up my data for my .41 Specials, but I remember when I had my Model 57 the data was something like 900 fps for a 210 grain bullet. Recoil was about that of a .38 Special in that gun and six rounds at 25 yards had a 1-inch group. It was a sweetheart of a load and you could crank them out pretty quickly. The problem the police departments had with the .41 Magnum if I recall was that when they got the guns, they apparently also got the full power ammo, instead of a lighter load that was made for them. Officers in the cities that were used to .38 Special K frames were not at all prepared for those guns and the loads and they could hardly qualify. I had one Model 57 (wish I still had it and if the buyer of mine is reading this and still has it please PM me) that used to belong to a Vermont Constable until he retired, it was a nice gun that I wish bills had not forced me to sell.
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Old 02-02-2013, 01:14 PM
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Here's your answer. It has been done.

41 Special - Reed's Ammunition & Research, LLC

Scott
I know that Reed's does, but I 'd like to see one of the big three companies produce it. That and a production revolver to chamber it.
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Old 02-03-2013, 12:33 PM
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I have a long history with both rounds and guns carried for self-defense. Back in the 1980s when I was with Dallas PD we could carry either round as well as handloaded ammo. I was also a commercial loader/reloader and made up ammo for LEOs in the Dallas area that mirrors what CorBon now produces.

In the early to mid-1980s when S&W brought out their 24s and 624s I had a full set of each...4", 6.5" and the Combat Special 3". I carried the 3" 24 on duty in a specially made holster from G. William Davis. Also got them for several dozen of the guys I worked with. On duty I carried a handload with a 180 grain HydraShok (this was the original HS Corp. before they sold out to Federal) bullet with enough SR4756 to run it 1320 fps from a 6.5" barrel...or about 1200 from a 3". This bullet would turn inside-out when it hit water filled 1 quart paper oil cans. It also penetrated well as when the HP petals broke off the HS point just kept going. I still have some of these bullets and one of my friends has the 3" 624...all the rest were sold off when I went to .41 Magnum in the early 1990s.

Also carried both a Model 58 fixed sight and 57 adjustable sight 4" guns in .41 Magnum. The load was a 220 grain Keith bullet made of linotype that was as hard as steel... 8.0 grains of Unique ran the bullet at 950 fps from a 4". It duplicated the original 210 lead police load but with a harder bullet. The factory police loads would totally lead up the rifling in about two cylinders full.

The big problem with the .44 Special is that most factory loads do not expand in human bodies. A friend bought one of the Model 21 TR Specials and ran every round he could find into gallon jugs of water. None expanded to any degree including the SilverTip and the Gold Dot HP. If it won't expand in water it won't expand in a human. He went over to a 3" 629 PC and I gave him some Speer .44 Magnum 200 grain Gold Dot HP Short Barrel rounds and that are only doing 1080 from a 4" barrel and they expanded and petals broke off every time. He also liked the Remington 240 SJ HP...an old standby.

A problem with the .41 Magnum as a SD round is the lack of really good expanding bullets made for people...lots of them for hunting but most don't expand well on skinny humans... The best going right now are the Speer Gold Dot HP, Winchester 175 Silvertip and any round that is being loaded with the Barnes 185 solid copper HP (Barnes, Federal and CorBon). These rounds run in the 1300s and expand rapidly on contact.

Was talking to Peter Pi of CorBon at the SHOT Show two weeks ago and he is also a .41 person having carried a 58 on duty when he was an officer. His round of choice now is the CorBon DPX that uses the Barnes bullet....

Both are great rounds...just get a bullet that will run at least 1100 fps and will expand....

Bob

Last edited by SuperMan; 02-04-2013 at 09:07 AM.
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Old 02-03-2013, 01:17 PM
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I've just bought my first .41 magnum, a model 57 8 3/8 bbl. and the previous owner( member here) was kind enough to provide a varied selection of rounds for me to sample. I'm now shopping for reloading press(got the dies and bullet molds) and pretty excited at the prospect.
It's a great shootin iron.
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Old 02-03-2013, 02:22 PM
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Old 02-03-2013, 02:53 PM
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From the handgun hunters who hunt with the 41mag and the 44mag say the stopping power and killing power seems to be equal. The 41mag has a tad more penetration over the 44mag. I would think the 44 special would be lesser in power over the magnum rounds thus way more controllable. Doesn't the specs show the 41mag and the 44mag to be upwards of 1400fps? I do have all three calibers in N Frame models(m57, m24,m29) but i haven't shot them yet. I've only shot my M58 so far its my new CCW gun.

I been pondering getting the misses a 44special 5 shot revolver and let her shoot the 44 russians out of it if the 44 special rounds is too much for her. She is new to shooting guns & handguns and she is getting her CCW permit.
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Old 02-06-2013, 01:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigBill View Post
From the handgun hunters who hunt with the 41mag and the 44mag say the stopping power and killing power seems to be equal. The 41mag has a tad more penetration over the 44mag. I would think the 44 special would be lesser in power over the magnum rounds thus way more controllable. Doesn't the specs show the 41mag and the 44mag to be upwards of 1400fps? I do have all three calibers in N Frame models(m57, m24,m29) but i haven't shot them yet. I've only shot my M58 so far its my new CCW gun.

I been pondering getting the misses a 44 Special 5 shot revolver and let her shoot the 44 Russians out of it if the 44 special rounds is too much for her. She is new to shooting guns & handguns and she is getting her CCW permit.
If you can find one of the earlier Charter Arms Bulldogs (of the 3" barreled variety) you would be amazed at how nice these older Charters shoot. The stopping power with the LSWCHP is on a par with the .45 ACP, and 5 shots from this little short-barreled revolver will generally "break off the attack." Eventually, the miscreant will fall down and "meet his Maker."

Scott
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41mag, 624, cartridge, colt, gunsmith, model 21, model 29, mountain gun, postwar, prewar, redhawk, ruger, saa, silvertips, transition, triplelock, wildcat

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