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Old 03-08-2011, 06:53 PM
ifjpm ifjpm is offline
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Default 357 mag 158gr JSP for self defense

Will the 158 gr. JSP 357 expand any out of a 4"bbl. I am a retired LE in NJ and can not carry hollow points even though Federal laws allows us to. Thanks.
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Old 03-08-2011, 06:57 PM
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Maybe, maybe not. I've not seen consistent expansion from the JSP rounds, but I've not tested any in a few years. Back when I did, I'd see some expansion about one time in three, in water, and when they expanded, they didn't expand much. They might be better now than they used to be, though.
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Old 03-08-2011, 07:08 PM
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I wold be very hesitant carrying " soft point " ammo in that state. NJSP advised another forum member that there are three rounds that are legal. Corbon PowRBall, Hornady Critical defence and a third which escapes me but I believe is the Federal Full Metal Case Expanding but I must verify. This info came from another brother who obtained it from the Triangle gang in W.Trenton. Just wouldn't want you to have an issue. Of course, LRN or metalcase is also ok as you know but performace wise you have three options.
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Old 03-08-2011, 08:01 PM
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I think the 158 JSP is good for alligators and bears and pumas. Probably whistles through most humans without much expansion. But tough muscle like in the heart might produce some expansion.

I'd go with that Federal load mentioned. Sort of a solid point that expands.

I'm so sorry that your state has such laws. That's just not right!
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Old 03-08-2011, 08:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ifjpm View Post
Will the 158 gr. JSP 357 expand any out of a 4"bbl. I am a retired LE in NJ and can not carry hollow points even though Federal laws allows us to. Thanks.
What does the local law enforcement carry?
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Old 03-08-2011, 08:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ifjpm View Post
Will the 158 gr. JSP 357 expand any out of a 4"bbl. I am a retired LE in NJ and can not carry hollow points even though Federal laws allows us to. Thanks.
That New Jersey law banning the use of hollowpoints by retired cops is null and void. The Law Enforcement Officers Safety Act Improvements Act of 2010 addresses this.

Excerpt from law:

(e) As used in this section, the term `firearm'--

`(1) except as provided in this subsection, has the same meaning as in section 921 of this title;

`(2) includes ammunition not expressly prohibited by Federal law or subject to the provisions of the National Firearms Act

This portion specifically targets New Jersey's ridiculous hollowpoint ban. When I visit NJ now, I ignore their ban since it isn't worth the paper it's typed on.

FWIW, I carry Federal .357 Magnum 158gr Hydra-Shoks in my PC 627 UDR.
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Old 03-09-2011, 04:42 AM
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I see above you can carry whatever ammo you choose but if you are still worried I highly suggest using Federal's new Guard Dog ammo over SP ammo. It's built on the Full Metal Case Expanding bullet concept but it's been improved. It expands even more than the original but it's still not a Hollow Point. Only problem is, I don't think either is made for revolver ammo, only for the 9mm, 40 S&W and 45 Auto...
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Old 03-09-2011, 05:12 AM
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Hornaday 125 gr Critical Defense, is a "shock and awe" load! Even 110 gr .38+P is a good choice from a 4" barrel.

Save the 158 gr for bears and cats.
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Old 03-09-2011, 12:28 PM
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For XTROOPER I feel the same way as you that the Fed. law exempts us from the state law, but contacting the NJSP Firearms Unit they say that NJ is not honoring the Federal Law?
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Old 03-09-2011, 01:09 PM
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Hi
I did some bulllet expansion research,with rifle and handgun bullets, similar to what 38-44HD45 was doing, in various medias, including water back in the '80s and found, with Jacketed handgun bullets, that once velocities entered into the 1200fps range and beyond, expansion was very good and consistent with .38 cal Jacketed handgun bullets, both soft points and hollow points.
In the 1000 to 1100 fps range, jacketed bullets began to expand but it was marginal in water.
In the 800 to 900 fps range, jacketed bullets expanded very little, if at all.

If I understand your delemma correctly, you want the 158gr JSP load, coming out of a 4" barrel at about 1100 fps, to expand in a SD situation.
I can tell you that you will get good penetration, but not a great deal of expansion.

What you might consider, is the Remington 125gr JSP load, which will exit your 4" barrel at about 1350 fps. Now, you will get both good penetration and expansion.
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Old 03-09-2011, 04:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ifjpm View Post
For XTROOPER I feel the same way as you that the Fed. law exempts us from the state law, but contacting the NJSP Firearms Unit they say that NJ is not honoring the Federal Law?
It's not up to them. Tell them you're going to carry hollowpoint ammo and that you dare them to charge you. There's not a single county prosecutor in the state that will charge a qualifying retired police officer under that statute because they know that will be its public demise. It's the same reason that for years it was illegal for motorcycles to travel on the Garden State Parkway, but we never wrote a single traffic summons for a violation of that regulation because the Parkway Authority knew that the statute, in this case, was unconstitutional and that once charged, the defendant could sue for relief in Federal court which would be the end of it. This is exactly what happened in the end and the "No Motorcycles" signs finally came down.
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Old 03-09-2011, 07:08 PM
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Default Soft Point Tests

They did not expand well at all...

YouTube - 357 Magnum - Sellier and Bellot - 158 Gr. JSP Ammo Test



YouTube - 357 Magnum - Remington UMC - 125 Gr. JSP Ammo Test

Andre'
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  #13  
Old 03-09-2011, 08:31 PM
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I can personally attest to the fact that they work on 200+ pound wild boar in Florida, if you get close enough to them.
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Old 03-10-2011, 02:08 AM
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So let me get this straight... You can carry HP ammo in NJ while on duty but when you are off duty or you retire you can no longer carry HP ammo. That's more ridiculous than the ban on HP ammo itself.

NJ needs a completely new Congress so you can join the rest of the nation. (or the bulk of the nation at least)
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Old 03-10-2011, 08:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ArchAngelCD View Post
So let me get this straight... You can carry HP ammo in NJ while on duty but when you are off duty or you retire you can no longer carry HP ammo. That's more ridiculous than the bad on HP ammo itself.

NJ needs a completely new Congress so you can join the rest of the nation. (or the bulk of the nation at least)
Not exactly. Per the now defunct NJ law (though NJ in their arrogance is still clinging to it), current police officers are exempt from the law so they can legally carry hollowpoint ammo on or off duty. Retired police officers are not exempted by the law, so they are prohibited from carrying hollowpoints. However, as already pointed out, this law was specifically targeted by the U.S. Congress for extinction and is now null and void since the passage of the Improvements Act of 2010. New Jersey authorities are currently still in denial, but they'll get it sooner or later probably via a Federal court order.
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  #16  
Old 05-11-2021, 11:16 AM
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Default NJ Ammo Law

I no longer live in NJ, no regrets. Three years ago a NJ Prosecutor advised me that the law prohibits hollow points or dum dum handgun ammo. She advised that dum dum, according to the legislators, means any ammo designed to expand. It is not up to the State Police but the Prosecutor to decide whether to charge a person or not. Active Law Enforcement are not included in this law. "Just saying FYI."
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Old 05-11-2021, 11:40 AM
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https://www.njsp.org/firearms/pdf/LE...Q_20210422.pdf


NJ is being sued by the FOP over its LEOSA position.

In an attempt to moot the suit, the state recently adjusted its (still unlawful) policy.

Now, qualified retired LEOs can carry hollow point ammunition, and are not required to have a NJ "RPO Permit."

But wait! That's unless of course, the qualified retired LEO has retired from a NJ agency!

A cop can retire from Iowa, move to Jersey and carry hollow points, but a guy living in the family home his grandfather built a hundred years ago in Freehold, who went to the schools there, raised his own family there, and did thirty years on his local PD can't.


It's some catch, that Catch-22!


AFAIK, the lawsuit continues.
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Old 05-13-2021, 12:33 PM
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Carry .38 special SWC, regular or +P and call it good. I stay out of Jersey; while their position is completely unlawful and you would eventually win, the litigation costs and time would be epic.
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Old 05-13-2021, 05:44 PM
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The Federal American Eagle 357 158 grain JSP goes into coyotes at 3/8" and usually exits 1/2 to 3/4 inch out of my wife's 4" Security Six. It doesn't even slow down through skunks or 'coons.
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Old 05-13-2021, 06:21 PM
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According to the original FBI Handgun Ammunition Tests the Winchester 158 gr. JSP expanded to .418 in. and penetrated an average of 22.91 in. out of a 3" S&W Mod. 13.

Penetration (min. to max.) in each test was:

Bare Gel = 23 - 27.75 in.
Heavy Cloth =27.75 - 31 in.
Steel = 17.75 - 20 in.
Wallboard = 21.25 - 24.75
Plywood = 20.25 -23.5 in.
Auto Glass = 9.5 - 16in.
Heavy Cloth @ 20 yds. = 29.75 - 44 in.
Auto Glass @ 20 yds. = 14 - 19 in.

A lot of over penetration and not much expansion.
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Old 05-13-2021, 07:46 PM
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I'd just carry Critical Defense and not worry about it.

I don't want to be a test case in a legal dispute.

Just want to go about my business and protect my family if necessary.
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Old 05-13-2021, 08:06 PM
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Iíve killed some deer with a 357.

The best performance was from hand-loaded ammo using the old Speer 160 gr half jacket swc and a very stout load of 2400 (a load no longer published in contemporary loading literature). Nothing else came close in 357.

I quit using 357 and went to a 44 mag when Dirty Harry came out and I located a 29-2 in 1977. I didnít like it very much. Too big for comfortable carry.

Then I discovered the 45acp in a Colt 1911. Iíve settled on the #68 H&G hard cast 200gr swc at 1,000 FPS and killed some deer with that in the ensuing years. That works at least as well as the 357 or 44 mags..
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Old 05-13-2021, 08:10 PM
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Critical Defense, for sure. If possible, the Remington 38+P 158gr JHP, the old FBI load. Proven accurate stopper.

Edit - my mistake. I meant LSWCHP. Typing while not thinking...
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Old 05-13-2021, 08:41 PM
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Quote:
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Critical Defense, for sure. If possible, the Remington 38+P 158gr JHP, the old FBI load. Proven accurate stopper.
The FBI load was a 158 grain lead semi-wadcutter hollowpoint. Not a JHP.

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Old 05-14-2021, 12:00 AM
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This is true. Also known as the St. Louis load, the Dallas Load etc.
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Old 05-14-2021, 12:16 AM
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is carrying 45 acp fmj an option?
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Old 05-14-2021, 12:39 AM
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They all fall to hard ball...............
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Old 05-14-2021, 04:59 AM
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After 10 years, I'm hoping he decided already.
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