Hi! When wadcutters are suggested a s a personal defense round, has anyone found that the BitterrootValley Ammo Company's 148-grain load, travelling at a reported velocity of 875 fps, sufficient for their needs? I remember Mas Ayoob stating that a round traveling between 750 - 850 fps would work, and that the late Jim Cirillo stated that a moderate velocity wadcutter would work. The firearm in question of use, is a J-frame style snubby in .38Special.

I don't know that company's ammo but I agree a Wadcutter can be a good SD round. (a company link would help)

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David
CW3 USA (Ret) 1968-1990

As far as I could tell from their website (which finally locked up my computer) the barrel length from which they took their velocity reading is not shown. If that WC is running 875 from a snubby, I'd be pleased to carry it. If the figure is from a 7", unvented test barrel, then not so much.

Hi:
You might be better served using Factory loaded Winchester Standard Velocity Silvertip ammo in your 2".

I agree - that is sound advice.

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David
CW3 USA (Ret) 1968-1990

Thanks folks, for answering my question. In these times, where we as Americans are battling anti-gun legislations/legislators, batnuts anti-gun lawyers in courtrooms, died-in-the-wool pantywaisted slobs, who would pick up a revolver/pistol with two fingers, (with the unspoken 'EWW'' comment on their lips), my thoughts are simple. WHY GIVE THEM A TOEHOLD? Jacketed hollow points do not come to mind for hunting for the average know-nothing. They are seen in all the entertainment media, as bullets used to kill people. Such is not the case with semi- and full wadcutter bullets. Elmer Keith used semi-wadcutters for all his hunting needs. Full wadcutters are sold, with the word 'target', or something that would bring to mind 'target' upon reading it. Now, it is a known fact, that there have been engineering failures of hollow point bullets to 'work as advertised', and in fact, become modified semi-wadcutter bullets, complete with lint. It is a known fact, that you have to drive a hollow point bullet faster, for the correct function of the hollow point to 'work as advertised'. To do that, you create a greater recoil, felt in the hand of the shooter. I am recoil-sensitive. I believe that using semi- or full lead wadcutters belays any implied 'intent to do bodily harm through bullet purchase or design'. I know that the majority of wadcutters run an average of 750 fps, en toto, which is in Mas Ayoob's ballpark figure of 750 to 850 fps. There are those of us alive, who remember what a 158 grain round nose lead bullet did as a 'contact shot', as demonstrated in Dallas, TX. For the record, over at brassfetcher dot com, they tested the Buffalo Bore 150 grain Hollow Base WadCutter. It sped along at 899 FPS, out of a 1 and 7/8ths inch barrel snubby. It penetrated the gel block 20 inches. That might work on one of these Hogzillas, but it might not the thing to send through, to the folks down the street, no?

With reference to the comments about Jack Ruby shooting Lee Harvey Oswald, two things should be borne in mind. First, the shooting wasn't the textbook "contact" shooting; Ruby fired from several feet away. Second, the wounding, although fatal, failed to immediately incapacitate Oswald who died in hospital almost two hours later. The cause of death was 'loss of blood due to gunshot wound'.

There are two reasons that argue in favor of the wad cutter for self defense, as opposed to the round-nose bullet (and a hollow point that fails to open is just another round-nose bullet). The first is that because the wad cutter imparts less recoil your typical self defense handgun (small and easily concealed) will be easier to control, thus giving the shooter a greater statistical probability of quickly recovering and placing more rounds in his adversary; the famous "double tap". The second reason why wad cutters are often used for self defense is that the blunt shape of the bullet creates a more effective wound channel than do round-nose bullets; this leads to quicker incapacitation of one's adversary due to the effect of "bleeding out" as it deprives the brain of oxygen, thus limiting your adversary's ability to continue to be an aggressive threat.

Seems kinda silly to worry about hollow point bullets vs. wadcutters from a legal standpoint. 'Target' ammo, from a .38 snubbie? Didn't know the 'snubbie' was/is classified as a target pistol. I spoke with Speer regarding their Short Barrel ammo in particular, according to them, the ammo is specifically designed for the characteristics of the snub nose pistol. The powder is faster burning to be done expending force before the slug leaves the barrel, the hollow point cavity modified to expand at the velocities produced by the snubbie.

In the past, hollow point bullets were remarkably undependable even from long barrel guns. When fired from a short barrel, often they never gained the speed needed to work.

While today's hollow points are much better, they still suffer from getting the point clogged and then not expanding at all.

With a wadcutter, you know its not going to expand or deform very much. about all they do is smear a bit and then tumble. This can be modified by using a hollow base wadcutter loaded backwards. You have a huge cavity of real soft lead. The disadvantage is they're not very accurate at anything but self defense distances.

If we're discussing factory ammo, the reverse load isn't possible. And you then bring along the debate about using your own handloads as opposed to factory ammo. Its never been settled and probably won't be. To the best of my knowledge, no factory or remanufactured ammo maker intentionally loads them backwards. Some of our more squeamish posters would blanch when they opened a box and discovered they were all "defective". Just the way I like them.

If any of you plan on trying the backwards loading, don't be shocked at seeing your normally tight groups open up at 15 or 25 yards to the unacceptable level. For fun, load 50 of them forward and 50 backwards, using the same powder charge. Lots of things happen, velocity is different, leading can occur, and you won't like how it works, maybe..

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Dick Burg

Just a small point - using the same gun, if a 158 gr wad cutter and a 158 gr LRN both leave the barrel at the same speed, the momentum of the two is the same, thus the recoil is the same. To change the recoil, either change the mass of the bullet or change its speed.

In addition to the above, to change 'felt' recoil using a particular bullet, change the mass of the gun.

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