Extreme Shock Ammo

[rchance]

Sorry my laptop is down while waiting on another power cord and my iPhone won't let me do a search so if this has been answered...sorry. Has anyone used extreme shock ammo and if so how is it compared to hydro shock and golden sabers? By what I've seen on the internet it sounds like it's a sister or brother to the black talon. The reason I say that is on their web site they claim it leaves a huge debree trail like the black talon. Also is it legal to carry?

[oldman45]

I will not be critical of too many things and that includes most ammo.

Black Talon was no better or worse than any of the socially select situation ammo out there. I have a few hundred rounds of the original BT ammo in about every caliber and will eventually use it up. Their reputation came from the anti groups that made all sort of claims that wouuld penetrate bullet proof vests, shatter inside the body cavity and expand to three times it's original size once in the body. I also heard a doctor say he cannot save the life of a patient struck by a Black Talon. None of those claims were close to being accurate.

As to the Extreme Shock ammo, it is all advertising. Buy Hydrashock, Golden Sabre or what ever suits your fancy. The damage a bullet does to the body in terms of effectiveness will depend on where you hit it, the caliber gun used, the distance from the subject, the angle of entry and what is struck once inside the body.

Like I mentioned above, I have hundreds of rounds of Black Talon ammo in various calibers and I keep my carry gun (.45acp) loaded with it simply because I have more of it than I do Golden Sabre, Hydrashock or other. I would feel just as comfortable carrying FMJ and that would be cheaper.

The advertising you see on most things that you buy is always better than the product you get. It is designed to intice you to buy their product.

I have never seen a person on a commercial saying, "I was shot by a XXX bullet and is sure hurt a lot more than when I was shot by ZZZ bullet."

Not once have I interviewed a person following them being shot that asked me what kind of bullet were they shot with.

Be more concerned about bullet placement than bullet brand.

The socially select situation ammo you use will not shoot the same as the ammo you practice with either. Buy what you want, shoot often and use quality ammo made in the USA.

[CTG_COLLECTOR]

ES ammo is unlike any standard JHP bullet design. The bullet cores use a sintered blended metal that desintergrates upon contact with soft targets.
Close to 10 years ago me and a shooting buddy tested the ES 9MM 85AFR and 124FF loads in a ballistic block of wax-type material. The AFR penetrated approx 5-6" and the FF about 6-7". My carry load, Federal 9BPLE, went just shy of 10". Both the entrance cavity and internal cavity created by the ES rounds were impressive. All that was left of the ES bullets were the orange plastic nose cap of the AFR and small copper fragments of the FF's jacket and gray soot from the bullet cores.

I don't hunt so I'll never have a chance to shoot any animals with the ES, and I have not seen any real world shooting results with the ES, but I have no doubts that the ES handgun rounds will cause a lot of damage. I do recall a guy on another forum who was shooting raccoons with the ES in .32 Auto and he said these rounds were doing more damage to these critters than any other JHP load in calibers 9MM up to 45ACP.

IMO, until we see actual SD shootings with ES, nobody can claim that ES will not be an effective SD load. Only time will tell.

[datsun40146]

Do not use this "Extreme Shock" for anything even remotely related to self defense. In fact the only shock you might get as a result of buying it won't be from shooting it, it will be from the price. Here are the real deal test results for the round.
The Box O' Truth #23 - ExtremeShock™ Ammo and the Box O' Truth - Page 1

[CTG_COLLECTOR]

Originally Posted by datsun40146

Do not use this "Extreme Shock" for anything even remotely related to self defense. In fact the only shock you might get as a result of buying it won't be from shooting it, it will be from the price. Here are the real deal test results for the round.
The Box O' Truth #23 - ExtremeShock™ Ammo and the Box O' Truth - Page 1

"The Box O' Truth" being the "real deal"? Hardly...

There is absolutely NOTHING real about shooting jugs of water and any correlation to self-defense shootings, unless you just happen to be attacked by hordes of animated water jugs using square pieces of wallboard as concealment.

[Martya]

I am no expert in ammo or medical stuff. The value I see in milk jug shooting is the fact that it is a constant medium and you can compare different bullet types and loads, assuming the many other variables are kept constant, like distance and barrel length.

I stumbled on this web page here

terminal ballistics

that has a LOT of bullet expansion comparison results from shooting a lot of water-filled milk jugs. (No association or affiliation with the author.)

I guess if I was looking for a bullet that expanded 'somewhat' and someone showed me results of 3 different bullets shot thru the same milk jugs, and one didn't expand, one expanded a little, and one expanded a lot, I might consider the one in the middle. At least there is something to look at and compare.

Now, how this compares to shooting a body, I don't know. A soft tissue shot is going to be different from a bone-type shot, and then there is placement, and distance, and more variables.

I take milk jug shooting as interesting, of some value in a comparative way, but not a guarantee of anything except what happens when you shoot milk jugs full of water. Shot placement in defensive shooting may very well be more important than bullet type, hopefully I'll never have to prove or disprove that.

[Jswiney9]

this ammo is directed more towards US marshalls on airplanes and anyone not wanting to penetrate through a wall. made in my neck of the woods if i recall and them boys sure are proud of this stuff. (check the price, OUCH)

[WR Moore]

The last time I checked, the Air Marshalls use Speer Gold Dot in 357 Sig. They have never, to my knowledge, ever been furnished with any of the wonder bullets that have been alleged to be used by them.

BTW, damn near anything will penetrate the skin of an aircraft. Puncturing the skin does not result in any horrendous depressurization or other action.

The results of the Box o Truth testing are about par for the course for pre-fragmented ammo. The use of milk jugs correlates well with 10% ballistic gelatin in terms of expansion and penetration (divide water penetration by 1.55 to get equivilence). Neither can be used to accurately predict results in actual shootings due to variance in the human body.

Readers Digest version: spend your money on conventional JHP and practice ammo. Where you hit them is far more important than what you hit them with.

[zspacez]

Don't believe the hipe. As said before, shot placement is far more important.

[Old_Painless]

Originally Posted by CTG_COLLECTOR

"The Box O' Truth" being the "real deal"? Hardly...

There is absolutely NOTHING real about shooting jugs of water and any correlation to self-defense shootings, unless you just happen to be attacked by hordes of animated water jugs using square pieces of wallboard as concealment.

Well, you are certainly welcome to your opinion, but it is not shared with the real experts in terminal ballistics.

Dr. Gary Roberts assures me that water is a pretty good substitute to ballistics gelatin at a 2 to 1 ratio, that is, 12 inches of penetration in water is approximately equal to 6 inches of penetration in BG.

And repeated tests have shown that this ratio is very accurate.