45 ACP

[Helderberg]

I had no idea how powerful any round of any ammo was until I took two old phone books to the range. I was comparing 45 FMJ and two brands of HP for expansion and penetration. I am not new to fire arms and before I bought the M&P 45 the largest caliber handgun I had owned was a 357 that came from it's owner with some hot reloads, and a Blackhawk in 44mag. I also had a 30-06 but had no reference to what the "power" of these or any of my firearms could hold. I fired three rounds of 45 fmj, and two brands of hp into a 3" thick phone book backed by 3 layers of 3/8" chip board and one of plywood. The fmj blew through everything and ended up in the dirt. The hp's did not do much different as 4 of the six rounds loaded up with paper and only two rounds expanded. The four were also in the dirt and the expanded rounds were on the ground. My question is for a home defense gun am I overpowered? Should I be using a 9mm instead? I ran the same drill with my .380 bodyguard and found all the rounds about halfway into the phone book with the fmj's about 1/3 into the book. Obviously the BG is a last resort gun that I hope to never use as is the house gun but I live in a residential neighborhood and now I am concerned that any round fired from the 45 will end up in the neighbors wall. Any and all help would be very appreciated. Sorry for the long winded post.
Best, Frank.

[Shooter6br]

I would research ammo like Glazer etc

[OKFC05]

I read endless posts about "overpenetration worries" yet reports indicate 80% of shots fied in shootouts miss their target.
Then I read about people using rifles for home defense, unconcerned that they will shoot 2 miles and penetrate a whole house.

Handguns are puny compared to rifles. Include your 30-06 in you test to see the relative difference. Then pick your handgun load and practice, practice until you cah hit your target. When you fire, you have to be aware of your target and what lies beyond. Any ammunition that will stop a person will penetrate ordinary wallboard into the next room, including Glaser, if you miss your target.

[Engineer1911]

If you are concerned about home defense, maybe it's time to move to a safer neighborhood?

[Helderberg]

Thank you all for your replies. I guess I will have to work this out on my own.
Best, Frank.

[mkflyfisherman]

Well, I guess I'd rather have something that over penetrates than under penetrates in a SD situaton. If I'm in a position to have to fire a weapon to protect myself or my family it's a pretty serious situation and I'll take my chances with the most powerful weapon I can handle (and that's handy), do my darn best to shoot accurately and under control and worry about the neighbors later.

[ContinentalOp]

I've read that the Winchester .45ACP 185gr Silvertip HP was a good conventional load (i.e., not pre-fragmented) to use where the risk of overpenetrating building materials was a concern. While it's not exactly inexpensive it costs considerably less than any of the pre-fragmented rounds available, making it easier to make sure it functions properly in your gun. If I had a .45 the Silvertip would probably be my first choice in a HD round, presuming it functioned properly in my gun and I could shoot it well.

[colt_saa]

Frank,
Your test while fun does not really tell you much.

Dry phone books and living flesh have totally different reactions when projectiles enter them.

10% ballistic gelatin is one of the best mediums to simulate projectiles fired into living flesh. It is just a pain to make the blocks and keep them refrigerated until you are ready to shoot them.

Should a 45ACP projectile actually exit out the other side of an animal or person the remaining energy will not likely be enough to do too much damage.

I do not know what kind of construction is used in your neighborhood, but here in south Florida most home are CBS construction. A 45 ACP will enter a concrete block but not necessarily exit it. If you live in a multi-family dwelling of modern construction it is likely that a firewall exists between each residence.

If you are still worried about over penetration you can make a different ammunition choice and go with a pre-fragmented projectile like the Glaser Safety Slug that Shooter6br suggested. The problem with projectiles like the Glaser is that in NY Winters folks might be wearing leather jackets or similar garments when they break and enter your residence. The Glaser is not too effective when having to go through a heavy garment first.

BTW, in-case you have not realized it yet, FMJ projectiles are poor choices for Home Defense purposes.

[Helderberg]

Thanks again, I think I will give the Silvertip's a try. I used those in the past in a different gun and liked the round so I will see if they work in my 45. And yes, FMJ is not a good defense round, you are so correct!!
Best, Frank.

[smokey04]

Let's not tell two generations of German soldiers, the Japanese, the Chinese and N. Korean soldiers and the Vietnamese that the .45 ACP full metal jacket ammo is a poor choice for defense. I noticed Viets soak up .30 carbine rounds but I never saw one that failed to get "sick enough" to quit the fight with one or two Gov't .45 slugs in his boiler room. Nick
EDIT:On the re-read that sounds a little more terse than I intended.I was for many years a big fan of the 200 gr. Speer "flying ashtray" because they would, believe it or not, cut through a car door before expanding at angles of obliquity that hard ball would just ricochet off.Now that I'm retired from LEO duties I have no need for car penetration so I use Black Talons [left over], and I have had good success with Silver Tip ammo in all calibers on non-human targets. Most of the high performance ammo is a good solution these days, if your gun feeds them reliably. But my original point was, when you are limited to full metal jacket ammo, the bigger the better and you will not be under gunned with that choice.As the man says .45s don't shrink, 9mm might not expand! Nick

[ArchAngelCD]

Hornady's new plastic tip bullets will expand reliably no matter what they pass through first.

[REM 3200]

230 grain Speer Gold Dot HP is what I like.

[EricInAZ]

Be aware of overpenetration when reaching for the handgun of your choice. If you live next door to me and touch off that .357 round that passes thru your house and into mine, I'm gonna exchange more than just polite words with you.

Consider the .45 ACP, even hard ball, as a much better home defense round.

Especially if you're my neighbor.

[Helderberg]

I do not own a 357 and I am very aware of my neighbors and have there well being very much in mind. This is why I posted this question in the first place and have my defensive positions in my home with all this in mind. I have decided to go with Winchester HP for my 45 and pulled the +P rounds out of my mags. I hope to never use a firearm to defend my family and home but I will not be caught unprepared.
Best, Frank.

[Neumann]

A .36 caliber cap and ball revolver will put that glorified BB through two Chicago phone books, but (fortunately) not the tree backing them up. A .45 ACP FMJRN should go through three or four of them, based on published penetration tests. A .308 will shoot through the tree too, up to 72" worth.

The moral of the story is threefold - hit what you're shooting at, be aware of what's behind the target, and if you can't do either, don't shoot.

[blujax01]

Originally Posted by Helderberg

... and have my defensive positions in my home with all this in mind. ...I hope to never use a firearm to defend my family and home but I will not be caught unprepared.
Best, Frank.

There's the best answer yet. The correct question is: "What lies on the other side of that door?" I was taught to plan my retreat to a pre-determined point (or points) and if the field of vision through the door in the subject room does not include a suitable backstop (like a refrigerator in the next room) to create one. A loaded bookcase in the guest room adjacent to the master bedroom for example. Or the brick wall exterior in the front of my house as opposed to the OSB and stucco rear walls.
With proper forethought, you can make your home secure and plan for that unlikely yet entirely feasible intrusion.

Vaya Con Dios

[smokey04]

A friend in Colorado Springs years ago found that his TV made a great backstop and prevented a .45 ACP from going through the wall into his neighbors apartment! Expensive but effective. I should add he was a police officer and his apartment was raided by some miscreants looking for "payback". They actually got a little more than they were looking for! Nick

[30-30remchester]

Originally Posted by ContinentalOp

I've read that the Winchester .45ACP 185gr Silvertip HP was a good conventional load (i.e., not pre-fragmented) to use where the risk of overpenetrating building materials was a concern. While it's not exactly inexpensive it costs considerably less than any of the pre-fragmented rounds available, making it easier to make sure it functions properly in your gun. If I had a .45 the Silvertip would probably be my first choice in a HD round, presuming it functioned properly in my gun and I could shoot it well.

I used a 45 ACP loaded with Winchester 185 grain Silvertips to shoot a 90# antelope doe. I shot her 7 times at 15 yards. Most bullets failed to exit. All were perfectly mushroomed. Even the final shot that hit the neck muscles only (no bones encountered) failed to exit. So if limited penatration is your goal I would have to agree with you. This final animal I shot with the 45ACP gave me some real insight on the lack of "knockdown"power of handgun cartridges. This very lightweight animal showed virtually no reaction to each hit. Even the final shot at mere feet away didnt even give her enough stress to make her blink.

[one eye joe]

Originally Posted by smokey04

Let's not tell two generations of German soldiers, the Japanese, the Chinese and N. Korean soldiers and the Vietnamese that the .45 ACP full metal jacket ammo is a poor choice for defense. I noticed Viets soak up .30 carbine rounds but I never saw one that failed to get "sick enough" to quit the fight with one or two Gov't .45 slugs in his boiler room. Nick
EDIT:On the re-read that sounds a little more terse than I intended.I was for many years a big fan of the 200 gr. Speer "flying ashtray" because they would, believe it or not, cut through a car door before expanding at angles of obliquity that hard ball would just ricochet off.Now that I'm retired from LEO duties I have no need for car penetration so I use Black Talons [left over], and I have had good success with Silver Tip ammo in all calibers on non-human targets. Most of the high performance ammo is a good solution these days, if your gun feeds them reliably. But my original point was, when you are limited to full metal jacket ammo, the bigger the better and you will not be under gunned with that choice.As the man says .45s don't shrink, 9mm might not expand! Nick

WELL SAID, Nick. Your experience in the 'Nam mirrors mine. Welcome home, brother.........

[Fishslayer]

Saw a video on YouTube with a guy shooting squash with various calibers. He kinda sorta missed the veggie with the FMJ .45ACP but it tore a dirty big shred out of the steel drum it was sitting on.

I'd be interested in photos from the wet phone books. Those are always cool to look at.

[Warren Sear]

As a young feller, the third handgun I ever owned was a Colt Series 70 .45 auto (the first two were .357's). After shooting it at the range some, I was very excited to try it out at my uncle's farm. There were always a bunch of old junk cars there in the woods, so I walked out there and found an early 50's Pontiac. I stepped back about 20 yards, assumed a manly shooting stance, and let 'er rip, fully expecting to shred the car. Imagine my disappointment when only one of seven bullets penetrated the side door.

Over-penetration is not a concern with a .45, in my experience. In fact, I think its penetration is just perfect for its intended use as a defensive weapon against non-armored human assailants. Just don't try to shoot through cars with it.

[Wheelgunner840]

Howdy Frank.

I have trusted my .45s for many years as a home defense tool. I keep it stoked with federal hydra-shoks, and or Speer Gold Dots.

A couple of things you should consider. Although factory SD ammo is ridiculously expensive, you need to buy a few boxes of it and make sure your particular firearm will eat it up with absolutely no hiccups.

I have done this with my SD .45s. They have never failed to be 100% reliable with the ammo I have chosen. Secondly, you need to practice with whatever ammo you choose so that you are very familiar and comfortable with it.

A self defense situation is not the time for surprises from your own gun!

Bottom line is that the .45 not only makes a great SD choice, but in my opinion, is the best choice!

".45ACP. Because shooting twice is just silly!"


WG840

[Helderberg]

This is all good information. I want to thank all of you that gave me constructive information and common sense answers. I also respect the knowledge and experience that many of you bring to a forum on this subject. Thanks to all of you and I have bought a few boxes of Winchester Elite and it is now my SD ammo.
Best, Frank.

[Len]

For a real-life education, Google "the box of truth." The guy has posted tons of comparison videos about myths and facts of caliber penetration.

I think you'll be impressed with the content.

Len