At this point why am I bothering to carry a firearm? If I opt to wallop him with a frying pan, can I aim for the head or would that be pointless too?

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Regards,
Guy-Harold Smith II

That's your opinion. Can you defend it with fact that can be verified?

I have no stake in convincing you; we are all responsible for our own salvation.

Others may find this an interesting read:

http://www.theppsc.org/Staff_Views/Aveni/OIS.pdf

In the vast majority of cases, the simple appearance of a firearm stops confrontation. With no shots fired.

In most cases where shots are fired, the confrontation ends immediately. Not because the perp has been physically stopped, but because he doesn't like being shot at enough to stop what he is doing.

In the above two situations, a handgun is a very useful tool.

In the third case, where there is a determined attacker who is inclined to continue even if hit, a handgun is a sorry weapon.

If you have to shoot, you don't know which kind of attacker you are facing.

I still think the 158gr Remington lead SWCHP +P is one of the better defense loads in the .38 Special. ( Buffalo Bore makes two versions, one a +P & the other a std pressure. ) It will reach vitals & if it doesn't expand, you still have a heavy SWC cutting through everything in it's way.
Massad Ayoob makes reference to it in his Handgun Defense book.
Frank

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US RIDE FOR THE BRAND OR LEAVE

158 Grain LSWCHP+P is the old F.B.I. Load.

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NRA Pistol/Rifle Inst. RSO

That's sort of old news, but is the classic example of an incompetent defense attorney. The prosecutor latched onto the use of a .40 S&W as an example of wanton blood lust and murderous intent on the part of the defendant, and convinced the jury of it. His defense attorney did an extremely poor job of pointing out how common the .40 S&W was in police service, and that it was no more indicative of blood lust than any other caliber. I believe the AZ state law was later changed to prevent this sort of travesty of justice from happening to anyone else. Several years ago, this case was covered thoroughly on one of the network news shows like Dateline or 20/20. But I don't remember which show it was.

One of the many reasons that Harold Fish was convicted by a jury of his peers was because the killing weapon was a 10MM caliber pistol loaded with hollow point ammunition. And when many of the jury members went on TV to talk about this case, the use of the "powerful" 10MM caliber with HP ammo is what stuck in their minds, which helped the prosecutor get his conviction.

Also, just because Fish's attorney didn't know how to defend the use of a 10MM caliber firearm using HP ammo for SD, that doesn't mean he had an incompetent legal counsel.

The Quickest way to jail sometimes is a Public Defender.

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NRA Pistol/Rifle Inst. RSO

Oh, heck... I might as well break my own promise. When in Rome...

It's a very interesting read indeed, but I still see little correlation between civilian self-defense shootings and LE shootings. To the best of my knowledge, the former does not involve having to shoot barricaded perpetrators behind intermediate barriers, nor have I heard (to date) of any scenarios involving two or more armed civilians engaging a single attacker.

So you mean to say that the overwhelming statistical majority of "stops" in civilian SD scenarios are psychological rather than physiological in nature? Interesting... Could you cite any materials or studies to corroborate that? (To elaborate, I'm not talking about cases where the defender missed completely.)

From wikipedia:

"Psychological

Emotional shock, terror, or surprise can cause a person to faint, surrender, or flee when shot or shot at. Emotional fainting is the likely reason for most "one-shot stops", and not an intrinsic effectiveness quality of any firearm or bullet; there are many documented instances where people have instantly dropped unconscious when the bullet only hit an extremity, or even completely missed. Additionally, the muzzle blast and flash from many firearms are substantial and can cause disorientation, dazzling, and stunning effects. Flashbangs (stun grenades) and other less-lethal "distraction devices" rely exclusively on these effects."

No, it's not.

You guys who like the 158 gr SWC have made a good choice. I like the 148 gr WC because I can launch it with more velocity. From a snubby, a little extra velocity is a good idea.

Gamecrock,

Is the above statement from, Personal Experience?

Or sumthing you read sumwhere?



Some of us Ol Hands kinda wondered....


Su Amigo,
Dave

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"IN GOD WE TRUST"

Product placement....ask the members (PD) the distance where most civilian shootings occur...consistent placement and quantity are, imho, the key to a successful negotiation...can you tell I'm in sales....

Wikipedia is not a reference. It is just more opinion.

"Also, just because Fish's attorney didn't know how to defend the use of a 10MM caliber firearm using HP ammo for SD, that doesn't mean he had an incompetent legal counsel."

So you mean the defendant's counsel WAS competent because he did not know how to defend his client?

What else would you call it?

By rights, that excerpt should be flagged for the use of weasel words (e.g. "there are many documented instances").

http://ccjatraining.com/articles/Han...ppingPower.pdf

"First let’s take a look at some statistics. The FBI, in the Uniform Crime Report
(UCR), tells us that most shootings - about 80% - occur in low or reduced light.
Most shootings involving police officers and civilian concealed carry permit
holders happen at a distance of less than ten feet with average distance at three
feet."

At three feet, you aren't going to be using your sights. Without sights, you aren't aiming. Without aiming, shot placement is a fantasy.

Might be a fantasy to some, it isn't a fantasy to me.
I was trained (over 40 years ago) by someone who was trained in a method presented in "Shooting to Live" by Capts. Fairbairn and Sykes.
I only just recently was introduced to this manual and recognised every step in the training. Anything but fantasy.

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Halfway and one more step

What does all this point shooting and using sight have to do with using wadcutters as a defense load?

I'm just responding to comments made by others. Yes, it is serious thread drift.

He's more stuff:

http://www.pointshooting.com/nra.pdf

[QUOTE]


I've been involved in a difficulty er two in my day...As well as several of my close personal friends.

All of us are still around to bounce the grandkids on our knees and enjoy a good steak....Guess we ain't no statistics.

Trying to predicted what someone will do in a deadly force situation or how well they will preform under those circumstances
is hard to do with a slide rule and a hand full of skewed data/facts on a report somewhere.

As much as I like wadcutters and I do enjoy my time spent hip and or point shooting....

I think I'm gonna go with then sharp shouldered semi-wadcutter from here on out.

Gonna finish this here cup of coffee and go out and fire 3 or 4 hunder rounds to jest
sharpen up my point shootin on the ol cotton rope trick.

We used to keep a pile of statistics along with a Sear & Roebuck catalog in the out house for laughs and whatknot...

Load them WC right-side up er back-wards, over a reasonable dose of yer favor powder and have at it, I always say.

And Good Day!


Su Amigo,
Dave

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"IN GOD WE TRUST"

[QUOTE=keith44spl;136853364]Well Put!!!!!!!!!!!!

Depending, the first five or six rounds in my .38's are Buffalo Bore wadcutters. Hell, for that matter, the first six in my N-frame are wadcutters

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I believe in the wadcutter.

I use this mould to make my own so I can shoot more.

As simple as that.

Can be either hollow point or hollow base.

Load more shoot more.

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Texasflyboy

That was my thought too after reading that post. Unfortunately when I checked with local law enforcement, I found out they will not issue a concealed fryng pan permit. So I guess I'm stuck my my j-frames.
Since I got old, I have trouble seeing the sights clearly but since my 3-feet-away attacker will be similarly fuzzy I guess that's OK. One thing I'm not gonna do is point-and-shoot, I wouldn't want to miss.

Since you're gonna miss anyway, it doesn't matter what you shoot. Just load up the loudest, muzzle-flashiest one you can find and hope for the best.

That's good advice.

Yeah, I know you didn't intend it to be. Blue Dot is an excellent powder to get max flash.

Been making my own HPWC for a while now ever since I read an article in handloader mag I just chuck the in my sherline lathe and use a 60 degree starter drill I use 158 grain bullets they shoot real good will post a pic in the next day or two.

Jim Cirillo liked these....



But these days I'm with Capt'n Dave and shoot mostly Semi-Wadcutters under a healthy dollop of Unique...

"At three feet, you aren't going to be using your sights. Without sights, you aren't aiming. Without aiming, shot placement is a fantasy."

If you read Bill Jordan's book "No Second Place Winner," he spends a lot of time discussing proper training for engagements at "up close and personal" distances where sights are useless.

Nonsense. When under stress, you default to the level of your training. Much depends on if and how you've trained. If you haven't trained at all, your statement may have some validity if you're the nervous type.

These are what Jim Cirillo liked. These are what I carry in my model 37 back up gun.

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Curiously, the author fails to provide sources or corroboration for this pronouncement for in his bibliography, despite (correctly) enumerating FBI SA Urey Patrick's papers on "stopping power."

Go figure.

This article lacks a bibliography or any sort and is chock full of ambiguities like: "One study of police shootings in a major urban area..." Is that so? Which study? Where is this "urban area"? What protocols were used? Was the study peer reviewed by other professionals in the law enforcement community?

I grow tired of this, and I'm seriously worried about drawing the ire of the moderators. So, in closing, I wish to state the following:

I'm not denying that some self-defense encounters occur at distances which preclude the use of aimed shooting. HOWEVER, to say that they are in the statistical majority requires proof which, as of the writing of this post, has yet to be presented.

In situations where the above is true, other posters have correctly pointed out that you will fall to the level of your training and that using a flash sight picture or aimed point shooting as circumstances permit is not in vain provided that the individual's skill level is sufficient enough to achieve fairly solid COM hits. (Whether the hits actually do anything is the subject of another discussion, and my answer to that would be to simply point you in the direction of SA Patrick's "Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness.")

If you cannot obtain fairly solid COM hits using a flash sight picture or aimed point shooting despite sub-optimal conditions and the effects of adrenaline and stress, then nothing short of heightened situational awareness and avoidance will save you from a deadly encounter.

THE END.

What exactly are those, if you don't mind me asking? They look pretty neat.

These are now long out of print. They are Jim Cirillo's "Man Stopper" or "Felon Grabber" as made and sold by Kaswer Custom Ammo.

Kaswer was at one time famous in the 1980's wave of boutique ammo with their "Pin Grabber" load.

Man Stopper / Felon Grabber was available as loaded rounds or components in .38/.357 and .45 ACP / Colt.

The other side of that is..." If it ain't broke, don't fix it".....it works, period

This is the clearest and most succinct survey of handgun effectiveness
so far.

After reading 40 years of unsupported pontification and assertion this provides a sober and complete picture.

Penetration and location with no magic bullets, formulas or "effects".

Only thing left out............more holes are better...improves the odds of
an effective hit.

Well Done

John

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I Love This Site

I've shot countless 1000's of lead wc bullets in 38's, 357's, 44spl's & 44mags in 1 7/8", 2", 3," 4", 6", 7 1/2", 10", 12" & 14" bbls.

I cast my own wc with h&g #50, lyman 385495 & 429348 molds.

I also cast hbwc bullets in 44 & 38/357 and have done different tests with soft to hard alloys in short to long bbl's with mild to wild velocities in different test mediums.

A jacketed hbwc bullet has easily out performed any lead bullet (wc/hbwc) I've ever tested. The jacketed hbwc's that I use/tested are bonded not swaged. The bonding of the lead core is what makes it superior to anything I've ever seen.

I am in the process of testing a bonded core segmented hp for a 9mm, 38spl, 357, 44spl, 44mag & 45acp. I'm hoping for moreexpansion & extremely low speeds (550fps).

Buffalo Bore 20C-158gr. Soft lead SWCHC

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Halfway and one more step

Jest for the hell of it..........

I shot this target back years ago...When I was in 'Fightin Trim' using wadcutters and semi-wadcutters.

Two at once from the hip with a pair of five inch N frames, a 27-2 & 25-5 LC.

That left hand pulled one a lit'l high to start off...But, she settled down purty quick.

Plain ol typing paper



Now what's all this horse hockey 'bout ya can't hit nothin' without using the sights?


Su Amigo,
Dave

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"IN GOD WE TRUST"

That reminds me of the story about the Statistician that drown while crossing a river that was an average of 3 feet deep....

I remember seeing right hear on this forum a video of Kieth44 point shooting a pair I think to handsom short barelled 44s. Now he looks to have some years of experiance and handles those 2 revolvers enough to know don't mess, just imagine when he was fightin trim. It men like him on the forum I sure learn a lot from. If I could only be able to hang around a while I could learn a lot more.

Difference between theory and practice: In theory, practice and theory are the same, but in practice,theory and practice are way different.

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Halfway and one more step

You have some excellent thoughts, ideas & concerns racingsnake; there has always been a tradeoff between velocity, controllability & bullet performance in any snub nosed revolver.

Most hbwc bullets need to be made out of a 20 to 1 alloy minimum to stabilize in snub nosed revolvers (no more tumbling). The 20 to 1 alloy is also the minimum alloy for the bullet to stay intact & 800fps to have a consistent expansion & retain their shape/weight.



A soft jackted hbwc that has the lead bonded to metal of the jacket will open at much slower speeds, retain its weight & retain its shape because the 2 metals are fused together. The jacketed hbwc’s are extremely stable & will not tumble in any snub nosed revolvers.

Some test bullets, cast 38 hbwc’s, jacketed 38hbwc’s, cast 44hbwc’s & jacketed hbwc’s.



Some jacketed hbwc’s (38spl/44spl) shot out of 2” snub nosed revolvers with powder puff loads @ 550fps.




The bullet with an arrow pointing at it was shot thru a milk jug full of water that had a bowling pin sitting behind it. I dug that slug out of the bowling pin; it was buried up to the base of the bullets in the pin.



Like I said “Jacketed hbwc’s rule”. Their stable in any gun, can be loaded from mild to wild, fully expand @ low speeds & retain their weight.

How true, the corollary is that no matter how justified the opposing attorney will use anything (and I mean anything) against you.

True, but modern medicine and triage did not exist.

Today, loads at this power level would likely result in nearly all gun shot victims surviving if modern medical care could be quickly be provided.

Modern ballistic knowledge has evolved to new directions in terms of both points of aim on the human body (better targets showing where we should aim), better training, and a better understanding of projectile performance. Most of the hard core research has been done on service caliber autopistols (9mm, 40, 45ACP, and to a lesser extent .357Sig) because that's where the volume of LE ammo purchases are. However, it is not impossible to get revolver ammo that performs as well as the typical autopistol ammo if one knows what the needs are. The sharp edges of a good WC (Black Hills likely being the default) or a good SWC are a fine choice. They do not need to be loaded real hot to have good penetration and other performance characteristics.

Medical treatment matters to the good guys, of course, but what really matters if one has to shoot someone is that they stop their actions. Whether they stop by death or some other means is not really important. Handgun ammo sucks for serious use, and if you have to shoot a determined adversary with a pistol, you are likely to have to shoot them a lot. A pistol is what one carries when a problem is not expected. If one has reason to expect a problem and cannot make arrangements to be elsewhere, a rifle is a far better choice. When I was in LE, if we thought there was any chance of a conflict, a long gun came out.

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NHI, 10-8.