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  #51  
Old 01-05-2012, 01:15 AM
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Nothing wrong with a wadcutter for SD. After all, it's already at full caliber diameter.
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  #52  
Old 01-05-2012, 06:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ElectroMotive View Post
There are really only three .38spec loads worth relying on now days.

1. 135gr+P Speer GDHP SB

2. 110gr+P Barnes X-Bullet

3. 110gr Hornady Critical Defense


Physics says: "F = MA".

The more mass you can provide with similar acceleration, the more force you will realize. A 158 grain round at 950 fps will provide more force than a 110 at 1090.
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  #53  
Old 01-05-2012, 07:22 AM
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I have several thousand of the Winchester and Federal 158 LSWHP +P rounds in my ammo safe. After reading the comments on this thread, I checked all the ammo. All were crimped. All of my Model 10s, 15s, 64s, and 65s shoot this ammo very accurately. Over the past 40 years, I have found only a few quality control problems with factory ammo. Most were replaced quickly by the manufacturer after contacting them about the problem.
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  #54  
Old 01-05-2012, 10:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blujax01 View Post
Physics says: "F = MA".

The more mass you can provide with similar acceleration, the more force you will realize. A 158 grain round at 950 fps will provide more force than a 110 at 1090.
That is an absolute fact.
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  #55  
Old 01-05-2012, 08:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blujax01 View Post
Physics says: "F = MA".

The more mass you can provide with similar acceleration, the more force you will realize. A 158 grain round at 950 fps will provide more force than a 110 at 1090.
Force as in energy? Energy in handgun ammunition is nothing more than heat, and what does not become heat is accounted for by the elasticity of flesh. Force or Energy is not any kind of wounding factor what so ever. You left out that in your equation.

There is but one sole wounding factor in handgun ammunition, and that is the Permanent Crush Cavity(PCC). The PCC is the tissue the bullet actually makes contact with, and destroys. The more the better. In a handgun round there are two way to do this, by penetration and expansion. Penetration being the most crucial of the two by far.

Last edited by ElectroMotive; 01-05-2012 at 08:44 PM.
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  #56  
Old 01-05-2012, 08:43 PM
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Please see:

http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi-hwfe.pdf
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  #57  
Old 01-06-2012, 01:31 PM
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Heard from the factory rep again. They received the box of ammo I sent back. They don't currently have the Nyclad in stock so he said they'll send me two boxes of the 38G (158gr.LHP) instead. Hopefully it will be crimped or I'm sending it right back to them.
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  #58  
Old 01-06-2012, 08:38 PM
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If they arent crimped, and you send it back, if they double it again you could be on your way to a case!
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  #59  
Old 01-07-2012, 11:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Photoman44 View Post
I know there are many loyal fans to this load, but honestly, there are much better modern loads out there for serious use.

The last lot of Remington "FBI" I bought was so out of spec it wouldn't even fit in some of my guns.
I agree with this gentleman. I use 38+p in all my 357's (don't own any 38's). My carry gun is a 3 inch model 65 with Speer GD "short barrel" loads. I turned 50 two weeks ago but I can put all six in an apple size spot on the target at 10 yds off-hand standing.

I will say that some other posters suggest the Buffalo Bore loads. I ran a box of the 38 +P "heavy duty" loads through my 4 inch Python. That was also very accurate and no where near the leading that I got from the Winchester lead SWHP load. If you do go with the traditional 158 gr SWHP; go with the Buffalo Bore loads.
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  #60  
Old 01-08-2012, 12:29 AM
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Default Rem FBI load still a good choice...

Quote:
Originally Posted by ElectroMotive View Post
Keep in mind this is a picture from about 5 years ago. The 125gr +P Speer Gold Dot was out, but the 135gr +P was not.

This illustration speaks well for the Remmies I have in line for use in my 642, but I think I'll be checking for crimp and bullet pull on my next trip to the range.
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  #61  
Old 01-08-2012, 01:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shakey357 View Post
I agree with this gentleman. I use 38+p in all my 357's (don't own any 38's). My carry gun is a 3 inch model 65 with Speer GD "short barrel" loads. I turned 50 two weeks ago but I can put all six in an apple size spot on the target at 10 yds off-hand standing.

I will say that some other posters suggest the Buffalo Bore loads. I ran a box of the 38 +P "heavy duty" loads through my 4 inch Python. That was also very accurate and no where near the leading that I got from the Winchester lead SWHP load. If you do go with the traditional 158 gr SWHP; go with the Buffalo Bore loads.
The reason for that is the bullets are gas checked.
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  #62  
Old 01-08-2012, 01:07 AM
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Actually it speaks quite poorly for Remingtons "FeeB Load". It shows that round and the other JHPs listed fail badly when soft barriers are encountered.

The facts are there are atleast 3 .38Sprc loads on the market now that are designed for both sofy barriers AND snub barrels. Keep in mind, the Speer 135gr+p was made for snubs carried by NYPD.
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  #63  
Old 01-08-2012, 12:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ElectroMotive View Post
Actually it speaks quite poorly for Remingtons "FeeB Load". It shows that round and the other JHPs listed fail badly when soft barriers are encountered.

The facts are there are atleast 3 .38Sprc loads on the market now that are designed for both sofy barriers AND snub barrels. Keep in mind, the Speer 135gr+p was made for snubs carried by NYPD.
You got me there. But as a previous poster pointed out, at least the wadcutters (which includes the FBI load) punch a hole the size of their full diameter compared to the narrower holes from the tapered hollowpoints.

It would be great if someone produced a graphic like this that included the other rounds being discussed. But for now I am happy with the actual shooting track record of FBI loads from snubbies over the years. Just hope I never need them.
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  #64  
Old 01-09-2012, 06:06 AM
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If the modern JHPs I mentioned dont open up, and thats a huge IF, the permanent crush cavity will be virtually identical to that of a wadcutter. A JHP that fails to expand will cut to the slightly narrower meplat, but the taper will still crush the full diameter.

That said, the 3 loads I mentioned do open up, even at the snub nose velocity because they were designed with snubs in mind, the fact that they will work well in full size revolver is gravy. On the other hand, the FBI Load wasnt designed as a snub load nor was it designed for the FBI specifically.

I can get you protocol test data for the 3 loads, but I cant gurantee pictures. When I find the data, I'll the numbers and abbreviations.

For those that like the Speer 135+p losad, but are having a hard time finding it, the 130+p PDX-1 from Winchester might be a viable choice. As soon as Dr Roberts releases the data set, I will pass it along.
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  #65  
Old 01-10-2012, 07:35 PM
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OK, I found a link with Dr Roberts data on both, 135gr+P Speer Gold Dot and 110gr+P Barnes X. The data includes penetration, mean expanded diameter, and weight retention.

ETA:

And then I forgot to add the link! Herp-Derp moment.

http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Self_De....38spl/.357mag
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  #66  
Old 01-10-2012, 11:20 PM
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That there's a whole lotta info to absorb. Thanks for the link ElectroMotive.
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  #67  
Old 01-11-2012, 02:41 AM
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If you think thats bad, wait till you see the data in raw form!
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  #68  
Old 01-12-2012, 12:00 AM
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For those keeping track, I got the two new boxes of 38G (LHP) today from Federal. Opened up the boxes and I guessed right, no crimp, same as the other stuff I sent back. I'm still going to shoot a cylinder or two through my 10-6 and one of the snubbies to see if there is still bullet pull, which I think there will be.
Otherwise, EXCELLENT customer service, some of the best in the industry right up there with S&W and Glock. I hope its good to go, but if not, I'll see what they say again.
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  #69  
Old 01-13-2012, 02:13 PM
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I hate to be confrontational or disparaging but most of you guys really need a "reality check".

Any of you know anyone who has actually SHOT someone with this round when defending their life...? I know a half a dozen and only one was satisfied....and most of these shooting were from 4" barrels, not 2...

Have you seen what these bullets look like when actually recovered from a body? They aren't all nicey nice expanded like the add photos...some look like they could be put back in the case and shot again...

Accuracy...who cares... Study actual shootings, look at the videos on Youtube and LiveLeak, read the Armed Citizen or It Happened to Me and you'll see how far you are likely to shoot...it is measured in FEET not yards. Sight...what sights... Flash, what muzzle flash... Recoil...you'll never notice it.

Penetration... A friend landed one of these +P rounds into the neck of a suspect who had just shot at him... The guy dropped his gun and ran... When caught the BG had the bullet removed from his neck muscle... This was from a 2" M60...

Again, sorry to be so negative but I have seen what this round won't do way too often..and that is STOP someone...

Bob
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  #70  
Old 01-14-2012, 01:14 AM
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Bob,

I agree with you. Technology has surpassed the LHP in my opinion. 2" performance was always iffy, the LEO rep even told me this. I only bought this Federal stuff since it was a good price and wanted to try it out again. The newer loads like the NYPD load (Speer GD) and the CorBon DPX put it to shame.
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  #71  
Old 01-14-2012, 05:09 AM
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If you need a standard pressure load, the Hornady CD is the way to go.

The new Winchester PDX (Ranger Bonded when sold in LE boxes) 130gr+p JHP looks quite promising.
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  #72  
Old 02-26-2012, 04:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ElectroMotive View Post
If you need a standard pressure load, the Hornady CD is the way to go.

The new Winchester PDX (Ranger Bonded when sold in LE boxes) 130gr+p JHP looks quite promising.
I was going to ask you what you thought of this load.I've been carrying the Gold Dot SB in a 19 2 1/2 and a snub Mod 10.It's getting harder to find and I was thinking of switching to the RA38B Ranger myself. I can get 50 round boxes from ATG for about what I have to pay for the Gold Dots.The good Doc seems to think it's fine.
It seems to test well,but havn't heard of any shooting reports with it.
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  #73  
Old 02-28-2012, 02:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Photoman44 View Post
Win-win? My wallet doesn't think so.
Same here. In what little testing I've done with the Buffalo Bore, consistency was seriously lacking, and expansion was iffy. I can't see paying close to $2 a shot for "maybe".
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  #74  
Old 08-13-2012, 04:32 PM
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Hello, everyone. Forgive me, for I feel that thread necromancy is a poor and arguably inappropriate way for a new member to introduce themselves, but I've seen that same exact photograph posted across multiple forums by the same user, and frankly, it's not telling the whole story regarding the IWBA 4-layer denim test.


Since a picture speaks a thousand words, I'll let this speak for itself:





The bottom round is none other than the Speer 135 gr. +P GDHP, tested by Doctor Gary Roberts using a 1 7/8" barreled J-frame revolver no less. I'm providing a link so that anyone interested may view this in its proper context.


Now, to be fair, DocGKR did note that there was an extreme standard deviation with the measured velocities and I cannot honestly say when this test was performed, but it does go to show you that all manufacturers have "bad days" and that there's no such thing as a "magic bullet." To be honest, I don't think the "unexpected and heretofore unseen disaster" as described by the tester discounts the viability of the 135 gr. GHDP as a "serious" self-defense round at all, despite the very real probability that it may not expand after encounting an intermediate barrier like heavy clothing.


As for me, it's what I currently use in my Chief's Special because it's easier for me to reload using speedloaders than Remington's LHP due to clearance issues with the factory panels (my Mod. 36 is a square butt, which limits my options as far as aftermarket stocks are concerned). However, as soon as I'm able to commission a set of Herett's Detective stocks and take delivery of them, I'm switching right back to Remington.

Last edited by CoMF; 08-13-2012 at 04:35 PM.
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