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  #1  
Old 12-16-2011, 10:38 AM
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Default Federal 38g "FBI" Load..Disapointed....

Greetings Everyone...

I have been a "fan" of the Federal 38g "FBI" load ( 158 swchp ) for some time now, as it shoots so well in my 642 Airweight.

Just purchased a box from Ammo to Go, ( Great Service BTW ). Federal now packages this ammo in a rather plain white box, vs. the older silver "classic" boxes.

Not a real big deal, but I compared this round with my older rounds, and they have no crimp! Read a review, and the reviewer stated he could not fire more the 2 - 3 rounds out of his 642 without the bullets "walking" out due to no crimp.

I also purchased several boxes of American Eagle 158 lead round nose for practice. Even those rounds have a crimp! Why not the plus P 38g?

Very disapointed.

Bob
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Old 12-16-2011, 11:02 AM
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I would try the Buffalo Bore NON +P 158 grain LSWCHP in your gun - HEAVILY CRIMPED, standard pressure, 860 feet per second from a 2" gun. It actually packs more velocity and stopping power than the "Big Three" +P FBI loads do, without the excessive pressure which you don't want in an Airweight gun. POA = POI also.

Really good stuff!

Chief38
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Old 12-16-2011, 11:29 AM
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How was the bore with leading from them?
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Old 12-16-2011, 12:15 PM
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Thanks Chief..

Will be ordering a couple boxes to try out. Looks outstanding! Like having your cake and eating it too!

Best

Bob
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Old 12-16-2011, 12:47 PM
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The Winchester version of this famous load is still my favorite, and I regularly carry it in my 3" model 66.
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Old 12-16-2011, 01:15 PM
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I did not notice any unusual or heavy leading, but remember, this is self defense ammo and it "ain't cheap" so I doubt that you would be firing too many rounds other than to test and familiarize yourself with anyway.

Only the perp would be concerned with a "leading problem".

Chief38
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Old 12-16-2011, 01:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chief38 View Post
I would try the Buffalo Bore NON +P 158 grain LSWCHP in your gun - HEAVILY CRIMPED, standard pressure, 860 feet per second from a 2" gun. It actually packs more velocity and stopping power than the "Big Three" +P FBI loads do, without the excessive pressure which you don't want in an Airweight gun. POA = POI also.

Really good stuff!

Chief38
That load is SUPERIOR AMMUNITION! I have used it as my carry load for the last three years or so. POI=POA in my 357 & 38 snub nose guns.
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Old 12-16-2011, 02:41 PM
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I purchased 100 rounds of the Federal 38G "FBI load" and have since fired most of it through a 642 and 442, with no problems whatsoever. No evidence of the bullets pulling forward was noticed. I checked after every third or fourth shot at first to make sure. Ammunition To Go is excellent to deal with. And this is the best price on a great round for your gat. I also like the Buffalo Bore standard pressure version of the FBI load, which can be purchased from Midway USA.

Last edited by Clay H.; 12-16-2011 at 02:44 PM.
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  #9  
Old 12-16-2011, 02:54 PM
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I would think if it was the true old "FBI" load they would need a crimp. Maybe a bad box of ammo or not real FBI loads.
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  #10  
Old 12-16-2011, 03:00 PM
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I just switched from 110 grain hornady .38 Spl std pressure to the 158 grain LHP short barrel reduced flash and it is great.
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Old 12-16-2011, 03:26 PM
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ATK and others will make the ammo however an agency wants it. If a crimp isn't specified in the contract, you don't get a crimp. There are no current specs when it comes to what we call the FBI load, other than a lead hollowpoint weighing 158 grains and normally labeled a +P, at least by the big three. The FBI hasn't used it since the late 1980's, IIRC.
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Old 12-16-2011, 03:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chief38 View Post
I did not notice any unusual or heavy leading, but remember, this is self defense ammo and it "ain't cheap" so I doubt that you would be firing too many rounds other than to test and familiarize yourself with anyway.

Only the perp would be concerned with a "leading problem".

Chief38
I only ask because I bought some and two cylinders had my bore leaded so bad it looked like a smooth bore. My new 637 has that rounded EDM rifling that looks like polygonal rifling at a glance and I assuemed that was the culprit. Not something I would want to run a whole box through though for sure.
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Old 12-16-2011, 05:12 PM
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I am not too familiar with the new polygonal rifling that is now used on the S&W's and has been on the Glocks for some time. I can tell you that Glock specifies that NO LEAD ammunition be fired through their barrels because it will severely lead them up. They sell after market barrels for Glocks for people who ant to shoot lead.

What exactly the purpose of the new type of barrels are is beyond me, but I suspect that it is less expensive to manufacturer.

Chief38
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  #14  
Old 12-16-2011, 05:14 PM
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I know there are many loyal fans to this load, but honestly, there are much better modern loads out there for serious use.

The last lot of Remington "FBI" I bought was so out of spec it wouldn't even fit in some of my guns.
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Old 12-16-2011, 05:46 PM
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Winchester is my #1 pick, too. With Remington 2nd.
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  #16  
Old 12-17-2011, 03:15 AM
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I bought several boxes of that same Federal ammo from Ammo-to-go and have had no problems at all with it in my M442. No leading or bullet pull at all.

I would test it in your revolver before you take the word of someone on the internet who claims they had a problem. Look for yourself, I did and I see a crimp.
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  #17  
Old 12-17-2011, 03:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clay H. View Post
ATK and others will make the ammo however an agency wants it. If a crimp isn't specified in the contract, you don't get a crimp. There are no current specs when it comes to what we call the FBI load, other than a lead hollowpoint weighing 158 grains and normally labeled a +P, at least by the big three. The FBI hasn't used it since the late 1980's, IIRC.

Maybe the FBI doesn't spec a crimp on revolver rounds, but they should if they don't. I have had a revolver lock up due to bullet pull.

To the OP... good on you for inspecting your ammo and doubting something that doesn't seem right.
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Old 12-17-2011, 05:28 AM
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In my 638, Buffalo Bore standard pressure 158 grain LSWCHP performs better than the Winchester or Remington +P "FBI" loads. YMMV
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Old 12-17-2011, 08:17 AM
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I will have to try the Buffalo Bore it sounds pretty good.
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  #20  
Old 12-17-2011, 08:31 AM
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Would it be feasable to run the cartridges though your dies and add a crimp?
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Old 12-17-2011, 12:43 PM
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Quote:
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Would it be feasable to run the cartridges though your dies and add a crimp?
I did just what jimmy said useing my Lee factory crimp die with no problems. This was with the same Federal 158 LSWCHP were talking about.
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  #22  
Old 12-17-2011, 12:52 PM
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The Buffalo Bore stuff uses dead soft lead for maximum expansion, but the bullets are also gas-checked so there is NO barrel leading when shooting them. They're a WIN-WIN!
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Old 12-17-2011, 01:43 PM
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Quote:
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The Buffalo Bore stuff uses dead soft lead for maximum expansion, but the bullets are also gas-checked so there is NO barrel leading when shooting them. They're a WIN-WIN!

Win-win? My wallet doesn't think so.
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  #24  
Old 12-17-2011, 02:15 PM
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Fact of the matter, since using the Buffalo Bore 150 grain wadcutter*, I load those (the wadcutters) as my first 5 and the 158 grain LSWCHP in my speedloaders. YMMV

*I do this too in my Model 10 and Model 15.
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Old 12-17-2011, 02:24 PM
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I think Buffalo Bore is doing great things with bullets these days. However, I haven't found the 38+P LSWCHP to be particularly accurate in my guns. I've used the same bullets(Rim Rock) in reloads and am happy with the accuracy. I also can't get the velocity they do without 357 pressures.
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Old 12-17-2011, 03:01 PM
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I've shot quite a bit of the Federal 38G load in several guns. It has been very accurate, with mild or no leading. No bullet pull problems.

These were all in the silver box.

Bullet hardness seems to be between Winchester and the softer Remington. I quit buying Remington ammo, though, due to quality control issues.

The 38G penetrates well, although expansion may be less than some modern 125-135 grain JHP rounds. If you have to shoot a heavy person or a big dog, that penetration is a good thing.

I want to try Buffalo Bore, and their hotter lead HP might be a great load for K-frame .357's. The cost has stopped me so far, but when I get a little ahead, I may try some.
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Old 12-17-2011, 03:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chief38 View Post
I would try the Buffalo Bore NON +P 158 grain LSWCHP in your gun - HEAVILY CRIMPED, standard pressure, 860 feet per second from a 2" gun. It actually packs more velocity and stopping power than the "Big Three" +P FBI loads do, without the excessive pressure which you don't want in an Airweight gun. POA = POI also.

Really good stuff!

Chief38
+1 on this. Also try the Remington FBI round. I think you will find either one to your liking.
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Old 12-17-2011, 06:25 PM
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Quote:
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I think Buffalo Bore is doing great things with bullets these days. However, I haven't found the 38+P LSWCHP to be particularly accurate in my guns. I've used the same bullets(Rim Rock) in reloads and am happy with the accuracy. I also can't get the velocity they do without 357 pressures.
In my pistolas, the non+P is more accurate than the +P.
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Old 12-17-2011, 06:44 PM
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I like the Speer +P 135grn Gold Dots for short barreled Revolvers. I carry it in my 66 2 1/2 guns and my 65 three inch gun. I also carry it in my J Frame Guns.

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Old 12-17-2011, 08:06 PM
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There are 3 factory FBI Loads i know of on the market right now. For accuracy I like the Winchester first followed by Federal and then Remington. Don't get me wrong, none are inaccurate. It's just the Win ammo seems to be a little more accurate than the others in my revolvers.

For expansion the order is the exact opposite, the Remington, Federal then the Winchester IMO.
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Old 12-18-2011, 03:51 PM
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After reading this thrread, I checked mine. I have a box of the Federal white box FBI load, and it is not crimped. The older silver box I have is crimped, and it seeems to have some sort of a sealer at the mouth of the case. Thanks for bringing this up.
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Old 12-18-2011, 07:44 PM
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I shot one box of the Remington .38 special +P SWCHPs and thought I was shooting a black powder musket. It was at an indoor range, and I was sure glad that they had a good ventilation system!

Think I'll stick with the Buffalo Bore non-+P Chicago loads.
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Old 12-20-2011, 06:59 PM
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I shot some of my 38G this afternoon in my 642-1. I shot five then opened the cylinder to check the fifth round. Uh yeah, it needs a crimp. Tell me what you think?

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Old 12-21-2011, 01:51 AM
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How were you able to open the cylinder with that round in the revolver?
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Old 12-21-2011, 02:50 AM
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It barely cleared it, may have rubbed a little bit. I didn't try, but I'm sure a small tug and that bullet would come out like a loose baby tooth. I've emailed a contact at Federal and sent them the pic. Hopefully they'll replace the ammo for me.
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Old 12-21-2011, 03:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Sonny Crocket View Post
It barely cleared it, may have rubbed a little bit. I didn't try, but I'm sure a small tug and that bullet would come out like a loose baby tooth. I've emailed a contact at Federal and sent them the pic. Hopefully they'll replace the ammo for me.
Please keep us updated on how Federal handles this. As we all know mistakes can happen to the best company, it's how they handle it that really counts.
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Old 12-21-2011, 07:11 AM
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Win-win? My wallet doesn't think so.
Well, yeah, there is that.
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Old 12-23-2011, 02:24 AM
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Originally Posted by ArchAngelCD View Post
Please keep us updated on how Federal handles this. As we all know mistakes can happen to the best company, it's how they handle it that really counts.
Already heard back from an ATK LEO rep, he is sending me a 50rd. box of 135gr.+P GD. He recommended it after telling me how the LHP doesn't expand out of a 2" barrel. I wasn't going to argue at that.
Also said he forwarded my email to the QC guys at the plant but they are shut down for the holidays so I won't hear from them for a couple weeks.
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Old 12-23-2011, 03:33 AM
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Good for you and them. That's the kind of response I would expect from a company that cares about keeping customers. I wonder what the factory QC guys are going to say?
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Old 12-24-2011, 12:47 PM
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Definitely looks like a QC issue; the factory missed the crimping step. Once in a while you do get poor quality ammo intended for self-defense. I have seen damaged cases and primers seated upside down in otherwise what should have been top quality ammo. When I was on ERT we shot a lot of Federal .308 168 gr. Match BTHP in our precision rifles, as it produced the best accuracy overall; however, there were some QC issues discovered, luckily, during training only. We did chamber and inspect every round that we carried in our go-bags.

As for the perpetration with the FBI load in 2 inch barrels, I think the rep. might have a point. In my 637 I carry the 135 gr. GD SB +P load. I remember the old time detectives that still were “grandfathered” to carry their 2 inch .38 revolvers on duty carried 148 gr. WC’s because of perpetration issues.

Hope Federal makes good on your ammo, but if not, you might want to run them through a Lee FCD if you or someone you know has one.

Regards,
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Old 12-30-2011, 11:43 PM
dave-arlington-va dave-arlington-va is offline
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I've fired quite a few Federal LSWCHP +P. They all go bang. I've no desire to be on the receiving end. Its my regular carry round in my Model 10. The nice thing about a Model 10 4 inch barrel is it tends to be accurate in the right hands, no news there. The issue may be the result when fired from a 2 inch barrel. The +P in a 642 is not much fun to shoot in my experience. In a full size M10 it's darn near perfect. The Nyclad 38 Special runs hot enough that I'm fine with it through a 642.
Bad loads then I think you should notify the maker. They will probably see this thread anyway if they know their business. No offense to any please, just my own opinion.
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Old 12-31-2011, 01:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chief38 View Post
I would try the Buffalo Bore NON +P 158 grain LSWCHP in your gun - HEAVILY CRIMPED, standard pressure, 860 feet per second from a 2" gun. It actually packs more velocity and stopping power than the "Big Three" +P FBI loads do, without the excessive pressure which you don't want in an Airweight gun. POA = POI also.

Really good stuff!

Chief38

I have shot this load too, in fact it's what I carry in my non +P .38. I have chronographed it at 876fps from a 2" bbl. It's marked non +P on the box, & Buffalo Bore claims 850fps. When is the last time you got more than was advertised by an ammo manufacturer?

It has been said it's expensive. It is in a way, but we are paying over $20/box of 20 for other ammo too.
I have to ask myself what is my life worth? A couple boxes of kind of expensive ammo? I practice with other ammo that is way cheaper & load the premium ammo for carry.

It's a free contry (for now) though so everyone can carry what he wants with the exception of some LE agencies who issue ammo.
Thanks
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Old 01-03-2012, 05:00 PM
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I was contacted by a factory rep yesterday about my ammo issue. He said send the remaining rounds back and he would reimburse me the cost and the shipping. I asked if I could get a 50rd. box of Nyclads instead and he said it was no problem. Thats some good customer service!
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Old 01-03-2012, 08:04 PM
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Keep in mind this is a picture from about 5 years ago. The 125gr +P Speer Gold Dot was out, but the 135gr +P was not.

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Old 01-03-2012, 08:06 PM
ElectroMotive ElectroMotive is offline
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There are really only three .38spec loads worth relying on now days.

1. 135gr+P Speer GDHP SB

2. 110gr+P Barnes X-Bullet

3. 110gr Hornady Critical Defense
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Old 01-03-2012, 08:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rule 303 View Post
I like the Speer +P 135grn Gold Dots for short barreled Revolvers. I carry it in my 66 2 1/2 guns and my 65 three inch gun. I also carry it in my J Frame Guns.

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That's what I use in my M 642 and my 2 1/2" M 686+. It's a great load........
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Old 01-03-2012, 11:22 PM
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I'm leaving the lightweight bullets for .380s and such. I'll still rely on the 158 grain +Ps in all .38 Specials carried for serious purposes.

For me, the Remington version of the 158 grain +P offers more velocity than the Winchester or Federal versions. None will touch the Buffalo Bore. I like Buffalo Bore's figures with their +P, like the looks of their standard loading for that matter, but have several boxes of both Winchester and Remington 158 grain +P ammunition on hand.
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Old 01-04-2012, 10:02 AM
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Keep in mind this is a picture from about 5 years ago. The 125gr +P Speer Gold Dot was out, but the 135gr +P was not.


Most interesting! For the record, I see very few people wearing four layers of denim. I use the lead HP rounds and have that 125 grain Gold Dot, too.


What barrel length were these bullets fired through?
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Old 01-04-2012, 07:26 PM
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All were fired from snubs.

4-layer denim represents the toughest soft intermediate barrier. 2 layers of denim is still very difficult, as is basic t-shirt material. Clothing causes older JHPs to clog up and act like FMJ. The issue is back when the test was done, none of the JHPs were designed to defeat soft intermediate barriers, so thats why wadcutters with sharp shoulders were advocated. Its no longer an issue with the previously mentioned JHPs that are designed with soft barriers in mind.
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Old 01-04-2012, 11:46 PM
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I still like the full DE wadcutter out of a snub.
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