Can someone explain the rough design and functional differences between Hornady's Critical Defense and Critical Duty ammo?

I get that Critical Duty is targeted at LEOs but what, if any, are the substantive differences, beyond marketing?

When I bought my critical defense ammo, I was told it was designed for LEOs. I don't think any store around me even carried critical duty and I live in a big town.

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maj diff is the flex lock:

hornady.com/store/Critical-DUTY-New
hornady.com/store/Critical-Defense-newammo

And a 20 grain heavier bullet.

In 9mm. The 40S&W is 10 grains heavier.

Hornady Manufacturing Company :: Ammunition :: Handgun :: Choose by Product Line :: Critical DUTY®

The Critical Defense ammo is designed to reliably expand from short barrel handguns that are now popular with a lot of people. It does not pass the FBI protocols.

The new Critical Duty ammo is similar to the Critical Defense ammo but it will pass the FBI protocols which makes it eligible to be carried by any LE agency who wishes to use it. While Critical Defense ammo is more of a personal protection ammo Critical Duty ammo is more of a tactical type ammo. (I hope that makes sense)

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Critical Defense is intended for use in short barreled concealed carry type handguns with low muzzle flash and recoil, the Critical Duty is intended for duty type weapons where muzzle flash and recoil reduction aren't primary concerns.
Think of it along the lines of Speer's Gold Dot and Gold Dot SB.

I have some Critical Defense FTX (flex tip eXpanding) in 125 gr. 357. It is designed for full expansion when it enters soft tissue and it penatrates heavy clothing very well. I don't know if non coppers can buy it. Our dept. supply guy makes this and other cop ammo available to us retired guys. I am partial to Speer however...............

No, it doesn’t meet the expansion requirements

Which one?

According to Hornady, Critical Duty ammo does. If you disagree that's fine but argue with Hornady since I'm only quoting them.

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While meeting the FBI criteria is nice, there is no requirement, at least in my state, that duty or off duty ammo meet that criteria.

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None of the rounds pass; the 9mm 135 gr in bare gel need to expand to .533 min in bare gel it passed with; but with heavy clothing it only expands to .494. 9mm +P 135 gr in bare gel expantion is .581 pass. Again in heavy clothing expantion is .517 fail. Same stuff goes with the .40 cal.
source http://www.hornady.com/store/9MM-LUG...Critical-DUTY/

I'm not going to speak to expansion, I can't recall what, if any, specs the FBI test protocols had for that.

Critical Defense ammo was specifically designed for a maximum penetration of 10" in 10% ballistic gelatin, per Hornaday. This is below the FBI minimum spec of 12". While I may have differences about what penetration depth is good, a maximum of 10" leaves me a bit uneasy, especially is something like an arm is encountered before the bullet strikes the torso.

The handout Hornaday sent me on Critical Duty showed examples of greatly increased penetration capability in the same 10% ballistic gelatin. IIRC, all exemplars shown met FBI minimum penetration requirements. Expansion looked good, I didn't verify diameters against FBI specs, if any.

With modern designs, heavy clothing generally slows expansion with a corresponding increase in penetration. The fully expanded slug is generally very close to the same diameter as in bare gelatin. I noticed the 135 +P 9mm was 0.040" less in heavy clothing....no big deal.

BTW, the FBI mentions in the front of it's test protocols that agencies/end users should evaluate their own needs before looking at performance in all tests. In other words, if penetrating laminated glass or auto sheet metal isn't one of your concerns, don't worry about how the various loads performed in that test block.

I'll also point out that assuming sufficient penetration and bullet integrity to damage vital organs and structures, bullet placement is far more important than bullet diameter, velocity, construction or alleged performance in a test medium.

Still it didn't meet FBI protocol of 1.5 expansion.

Au contraire, in heavy clothing the expansion was 0.551 for the 9mm 135+P. At least in the catalog Hornaday sent me. 0.494 is correct for the standard pressure version. I didn't bother to check the .40.

Remember, the FBI themselves note that the purpose of their test protocol is to provide an apples to apples comparision of different ammunition in a standardized test. It is not predictive of real life results.

I'll also refer you to my comments about bullet placement. Magic bullets can't make up for sloppy shooting.

I just see it as a standard to be meet.

Thanks for all the great links and a great discussion.

Sorry for bringing up an old post, but I was wondering where you saw the 1.5x expansion diameter requirement for FBI testing protocols? I've been trying to find it and, as far as I can tell, there is no specific expansion diameter requirement. From what I've seen and read, the goal is penetration depth of 12" to 18" and positive expansion. (CALIBERS -- FBI Ballistic Test Protocol)

I'm no ammo expert, but IMHO, there's always going to be a trade off. You either get more expansion or more penetration. Factors involved in each deal with bullet weight, velocity, design and frontal cross section. Generally, factors that increase penetration include heavier weight, slower bullets, thicker jackets and a narrower frontal cross section. That's why rounds like the Federal HST, which wow most shooters with it's incredible expansion, tends to be on the shallower end of penetration. (http://le.atk.com/pdf/SacramentoCountyWBW.pdf)

Additionally, I seldom care about the diameter of the recovered bullet. What I'm interested in is the wound track between 2" and 7" of penetration. That's when the bullet is at full expansion and cutting tissue as it passes through. Once the petals have been fully peeled back, it's pretty much making a relatively narrow track that closes back down to original bullet diameter.

I think that's where manufacturer tries to find a delicate balance between expansion rate and penetration. When you throw a hollow point round with a thin jacket near the ogive and push it out at +p velocity, you have a tremendous expansion rate once it enters tissue. But the trade off is that you get the parachute effect; where the frontal cross section is enlarged to such a degree so shortly after penetration that overall depth suffers from drag and deceleration. Sure, a heavier bullet can help with that problem, but it won't make it go away.

Anyways, regarding Critical Defense vs. Critical Duty, I think the two rounds are entirely different animals. I don't think I would ever use Critical Defense for any purpose because of it's marginal penetration. While the Critical Duty bullet doesn't look impressive when it's been recovered, take a look at the wound track in gelatin, especially the first few inches. When you combine that with their increased penetration depth, I think it's a very formidable round. Add in it's ability to defeat hard obstacles and it's probably what I would use if I were a LEO. While it's probably not the ideal carry load for the average Joe, based on the FBI's current choice, the Winchester PDX-1, I really think that Critical Duty is a strong candidate for law enforcement...

Excellent post. I'd also like to see where FBI testing protocols specify degree of expansion; not saying it isn't out there, just haven't found it.

I have a different take on Critical Defense versus Critical Duty, which comes down to: same round, but the latter has more pepper.

And before you entirely dispense with Critical Defense, take a look at Brass Fetcher test results in both 10% gel, and gel with a bone plate; I think Hornady made a good round for snubbies:

http://www.brassfetcher.com/38%20Spe...one%20Test.pdf

I'd love to find a source for the Critical Duty ammo......I've tested the Critical Defense ammo in water jugs and wetpack, and while it displays consistently wonderful expansion, it is all light-for-caliber, and I'd like a bit more penetration than it offers. More bullet weight with the same expansion characteristics would be awesome! I have tested Critical Defense ammo in 380, 9mm, 40S&W, 38 Special and 45ACP, and for summer carry it's fine. In winter weather, I want something that handles barriers/heavier clothing better.

Anyone have a source for the Critical Duty ammo?

This bullet, BTW, was fired from a 3" barrel in my (yecch!) Kel-Tec.

The only thing the FBI-FTU/BRU says about expansion is that penetration shouldnt be sacrificed for expansion, and vice-versa.

A good bullet will be at its peak expansion within 2 inches of penetration, and will maintain it until it terminates.

I'm not sure that I would entirely agree with this statement either. A good example would be the Grizzly Xtreme ammunition. ( Grizzly Xtreme)

While it's a solid copper round like the Barnes X bullets, it maintains it's fully expanded diameter after penetration, causing massive deceleration and underpenetration. On the other hand, the Barnes X does not maintain full expanded diameter and the petals fold back, reducing the drag profile and increasing the depth of penetration.

The only way I could think of maintaining the diameter of full expansion without reducing penetration is to reduce the diameter of the fully expanded round?

Please note that I said "a good bullet". That means a bullet that meets and exceeds FBI and IWBA specs. That Grizzly bullets looks like it was designed for those willing to accept expansion over penetration.

Good JHPs do not open like that Grizzly and then peel back towards the base. The peel from the beginning of expansion.

What you are seeing between 2-7 inches in gel penetration is not the crush cavity of the bullet, but temporary stretch cavity. In living flesh the TSC is temporary do to the elasticity of human flesh. In gel it stays because it isnt living.

I would debate that to a certain extent. Within the temporary stretch cavity is also the tissue damage where the expanding petals cut. Although they do open from the front and peel back, the recovered diameter is not the maximum expanded diameter. That's one of the reasons why rounds like the Federal EFMJ/Guard Dog doesn't work as well. While it expands creating a marginally larger crush cavity, it doesn't have the jacket edges to lacerate as it expands. The greatest laceration occurs in that first 2-7 inches. Don't get me wrong. I'm not dismissing the crush cavity, I'm just emphasizing the lacerating from the expanding/peeling jacket.

EDIT: I just remembered the term I was thinking of. "Reverse taper jacket." It started with the Black Talon and most "good JHP" use it today. It essentially keeps the front of the bullet near the ogive from peeling back and the petals open first. Then they peel towards the end of expansion, increasing laceration.

I tested the .380 version of Critical Defense into bone and the bullet shattered...whereas the Barnes counterpart crushed through the bone and penetrated 5". I don't blame the design, insomuch as I do the diminutive caliber. I don't know if the bullet is built a little tougher in bigger calibers.

I was a bit surprised to see the bullet fail so badly against bone, when their XTP bullets are tough bullets.

With only 9.5" of penetration in bare gel when it upsets like it's supposed to, I'm not so high on it.

EDIT: Referring to .38 Special 110gr.

In my limited trials of shooting water jugs and wood and magazine bundles, the critical defense expands too fast as compared to critical duty . This statement is only based on visual signs and that with water jugs there was no exit hole just a big rip with Critical Defense, with Critical Duty there was an exit hole and a big rip.

The duty ammo penetrated deeper and held together better in wood and magazines.

If I had a choice I use the duty version, but, I would not be concerned
of failure if I used the defense ammo.

More grist for the mill -- Dr. Gary Roberts got better penetration in his tests:

<b>.38spl: Hornady FTX vs. Speer 135gr GDHP vs. CorBon 110gr DPX</b>

Anyone have a source for the Critical Duty ammo?


Papa;

Last week I bought two boxes of CRITICAL DUTY from Cabelas for a little over $22. per box. I have not tested them yet.

Cabelas also had CRITICAL DEFENSE, and ZOMBIE ammo in stock. ( in 40 S & W anyway).


T.L.R.

SGAmmo.com has them in stock and in the 50 round boxes.
I bought 9MM two weeks ago for somthing like $26.00 a box of 50 from them.

Thanks fellas, I just found the calibers I was looking for at Midway, and ordered several boxes to test. I thought it might have been restricted to LE only, and I ain't dat no mo. Gracias!

Pappa
when you reorder get them for SG you will get boxes of 50 instead of the 25 rders from midway.
Let us know your test results.

Pete

SG Ammo has some very good prices.
Just purchased 500 rds of Remington 148gr LHBWC for about $14.75 per box compared to every where else wanting $35. per box.

That is crazy cheap.
Shows you how much mark up there is on ammo.

I always liked mom and pop stores cause they work by volume to make money instead of gouging(JMHO).

Clarence

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And when was the last time you had to shoot into a windshield to protect yourself from a bad guy?

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Anybody had the dream where they shoot a bad guy center mass and the bullets don't penetrate because he's wearing four layers of denim?

I'm serious, I had this dream recently.

In it, the rounds were Hornady Critical Defense, which, frankly, is why I've gone and found as much reassuring info on that round as I can...

Critical duty are bonded rounds that will penetrate barriers, glass, car doors, and then expand in flesh. Critical defense is more frangible, which is exactly why I prefer it. If I have to shoot a bad guy, and I miss, the round on critical defense upon contact with an object will lose energy very fast and not penetrate. The critical duty could get you in a lot of trouble if it goes though something and kills an innocent person. I have watched a lot of youtube videos on Hornady critical defense though gel medium with 4 layers of denim, and it doe's just fine.

The Critical Duty is not bonded it is banded.

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yeah, I knew it started with a B

The 9mm 135+p passed all of the required tests. In fact, Critical Duty is touted as the ONLY ammo to pass all of the FBI requirements.

Interesting and good to know; is there a link to those tests?

This link is from a Guns and Ammo review..
http://www.handgunsmag.com/2011/12/2...critical-duty/

This link is an overview of the test protocol..

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=AYwnZt0j7co#

I'm not worried about this situation. But shooting OUT a windshield is on my list of potential scenarios I want to be ready for.

Critical Duty is marketed as "for LEOs' so that the general public will want it. You know, that "Carry what the LEOs carry" thing.

Anyone who's not up on this will want to look at the September 2012 issue of American Rifleman for a detailed analysis of the differences between the two rounds. Critical Duty was engineered to meet FBI protocols for penetration; Critical Defense was not.

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Critical Defense was made for smaller barrel guns like 3 inch and under to have good expansion and less recoil and muzzle flash. Were as the Critical Duty was made to penetrate barriers like wood windsheilds or metal like on a car and still expand and penetrate. i use the C duty in my gun its always in stock here in south louisiana. The only hornady brands that are the same are the zombie and critical defense only diff is critical d has nickel plated brass and a red insert instead of green.

I am not impressed with it. I am even less impressed with Hornady's customer service. I'm attaching a photo of a speedloader full of .38 Special CD loads that were stored in the case with a M60.

I sent the photo to Hornady. They said I had stored them near leather or something. That is simply not true; I have nothing made of leather to store them in. They spent a short time in an Uncle Mike's synthetic speedloader pouch, but that time was brief. At any rate, if they are that susceptible to corrosion, I don't want any.

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I got my critical duty at gander mountain